We're All Still Here? Nobody Raptured?

[nuck81]

Originally Posted by jamo

I read a few articles about people who were very (for lack of a better term) devout followers of the guy who predicted this one. They gave up everything expecting not to need anything after yesterday, and of course now they have nothing. I remember one specific story about a family who quit their jobs and spent most of their money a few months ago to spend the rest of their time with their infant child, and now, of course, they have no money.

They have nothing, but according to the IRS Harold Camping has amassed over 72 million in personal wealth the last two years.  He's been pretty silent the last few days, wonder if he will give any of that money back?

Regarding the "Rapture"  it's really a new concept in regards to Bible Prophecy.  Having only been a preached concept since the Early 1800's.  It was an idea conceived around the time Evangelical Protestants began interpreting the passages and prophecies of the Bible in a literal sense, rather than symbolically as Christianity had for the 1900 years before, and a thousand years before that beginning with Abraham and MonoTheism. As well as Judaism and the Torah. In fact it was Orthodox Jews (Pharisees) literal interpretation of the Prophecies of the coming Messiah that led them to fail to recognize and reject Christ's first coming. Suffice to say it may be come to circumstance that literal interpretation of the Bible may lead to many Christians failing to recognize and rejecting Christs second coming, if it hasn't already happened.

Also the word "Rapture" is never explicitly stated in the Bible.  And the entire idea stems from one verse in one book, with no regard to any of the other chapters or verses around it.

1 Thessalonians 4:16-17 (New International Version)

¹⁶ For the Lord himself will come down from heaven, with a loud command, with the voice of the archangel and with the trumpet call of God, and the dead in Christ will rise first. ¹⁷ After that, we who are still alive and are left will be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air. And so we will be with the Lord forever.

Edit: thought of a supplementing point

[bplewis24]

I thought I was getting raptured at about 3PM PST, but it just turned out to be indigestion.

Brandon

[mdl]

Originally Posted by TourSpoon

For those evil golf sinners you must spend enternity as Charles Barkley's caddy.

Are you sure?  I think you have to spend eternity with the equipment and apparel listed above but playing yourself with Charles Barkley's swing.

[MiniBlueDragon]

Do you think Ping sponsored these crazies?

[WilsonWedgeMan]

Originally Posted by nuck81

They have nothing, but according to the IRS Harold Camping has amassed over 72 million in personal wealth the last two years.  He's been pretty silent the last few days, wonder if he will give any of that money back?

Regarding the "Rapture"  it's really a new concept in regards to Bible Prophecy.  Having only been a preached concept since the Early 1800's.  It was an idea conceived around the time Evangelical Protestants began interpreting the passages and prophecies of the Bible in a literal sense, rather than symbolically as Christianity had for the 1900 years before, and a thousand years before that beginning with Abraham and MonoTheism. As well as Judaism and the Torah. In fact it was Orthodox Jews (Pharisees) literal interpretation of the Prophecies of the coming Messiah that led them to fail to recognize and reject Christ's first coming. Suffice to say it may be come to circumstance that literal interpretation of the Bible may lead to many Christians failing to recognize and rejecting Christs second coming, if it hasn't already happened.

Also the word "Rapture" is never explicitly stated in the Bible.  And the entire idea stems from one verse in one book, with no regard to any of the other chapters or verses around it.

1 Thessalonians 4:16-17 (New International Version)

16 For the Lord himself will come down from heaven, with a loud command, with the voice of the archangel and with the trumpet call of God, and the dead in Christ will rise first. 17 After that, we who are still alive and are left will be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air. And so we will be with the Lord forever.

Edit: thought of a supplementing point

excellent post..... also the only time that "attending a church" is spoken of is Heb 10:25( from what I've studied)  ONE scripture used to mandate church attendance...none other that I can find in my Strongs'.....

Originally Posted by bunkerputt

True.  True.  I heard so many people bad-mouthing Christianity and the Bible, as if Harold Camping and his followers even engage their minds when they read it....if they even do.  I heard quite a few people entirely sure that it wasn't going to happen and I thought that was an equally prideful statement as this deluded nut-job thinking he knows the time.  You can just listen to the followers and hear a mind blown by every wind of doctrine:

"I just know he's biblically sound," the man said. "I've never been one of these guys who think everything he says is true.

"I don't think I am going to stop listening to him," the man added, heaving a deep sigh before continuing: "I don't know, I gotta listen to him on Monday, see what he says on the radio."

I'm straining to pick out a reasonable line of reasoning in that small window into the mind of his followers....but for the grace of God, I'm right there with them if I don't stay alert and keep my mind sharp.  I'm convinced this whole movement is yet another attempt to discredit the message of the Bible, that there is a time appointed, and no one knows...  Now people will just go on about their ways.....

it coulda been worse....look at Jim Jones and Guyana.....

as for keeping my mind sharp..I'm too stubborn to follow any man...ANY man behind a pulpit, as I have the same line of communication available to me that he does... Man makes precahers more than they should be.

[bunkerputt]

Originally Posted by nuck81

They have nothing, but according to the IRS Harold Camping has amassed over 72 million in personal wealth the last two years.  He's been pretty silent the last few days, wonder if he will give any of that money back?

Regarding the "Rapture"  it's really a new concept in regards to Bible Prophecy.  Having only been a preached concept since the Early 1800's.  It was an idea conceived around the time Evangelical Protestants began interpreting the passages and prophecies of the Bible in a literal sense, rather than symbolically as Christianity had for the 1900 years before, and a thousand years before that beginning with Abraham and MonoTheism. As well as Judaism and the Torah. In fact it was Orthodox Jews (Pharisees) literal interpretation of the Prophecies of the coming Messiah that led them to fail to recognize and reject Christ's first coming. Suffice to say it may be come to circumstance that literal interpretation of the Bible may lead to many Christians failing to recognize and rejecting Christs second coming, if it hasn't already happened.

Also the word "Rapture" is never explicitly stated in the Bible.  And the entire idea stems from one verse in one book, with no regard to any of the other chapters or verses around it.

1 Thessalonians 4:16-17 (New International Version)

16 For the Lord himself will come down from heaven, with a loud command, with the voice of the archangel and with the trumpet call of God, and the dead in Christ will rise first. 17 After that, we who are still alive and are left will be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air. And so we will be with the Lord forever.

Edit: thought of a supplementing point

That's a great post.  I agree with everything you said except "Suffice to say it may be come to circumstance that literal interpretation of the Bible may lead to many Christians failing to recognize and rejecting Christs second coming, if it hasn't already happened."  I assume you mean "literal interpretation may lead to failure to recognize Christ's second coming, which second coming may have already happened" rather than the less obvious "literal interpretation may have already lead to a failure to recognize Christ's second coming"

Acts 1:11 - "Men of Galilee," they said, "why do you stand here looking into the sky? This same Jesus, who has been taken from you into heaven, will come back in the same way you have seen him go into heaven."

It's a coming like a thief in that it is sudden and unexpected to take something away from us.  Not so much about the sneakiness of it.  But good post nonetheless.

[mck]

Originally Posted by nuck81

They have nothing, but according to the IRS Harold Camping has amassed over 72 million in personal wealth the last two years.  He's been pretty silent the last few days, wonder if he will give any of that money back?

Regarding the "Rapture"  it's really a new concept in regards to Bible Prophecy.  Having only been a preached concept since the Early 1800's.  It was an idea conceived around the time Evangelical Protestants began interpreting the passages and prophecies of the Bible in a literal sense, rather than symbolically as Christianity had for the 1900 years before, and a thousand years before that beginning with Abraham and MonoTheism. As well as Judaism and the Torah. In fact it was Orthodox Jews (Pharisees) literal interpretation of the Prophecies of the coming Messiah that led them to fail to recognize and reject Christ's first coming. Suffice to say it may be come to circumstance that literal interpretation of the Bible may lead to many Christians failing to recognize and rejecting Christs second coming, if it hasn't already happened.

Also the word "Rapture" is never explicitly stated in the Bible.  And the entire idea stems from one verse in one book, with no regard to any of the other chapters or verses around it.

1 Thessalonians 4:16-17 (New International Version)

16 For the Lord himself will come down from heaven, with a loud command, with the voice of the archangel and with the trumpet call of God, and the dead in Christ will rise first. 17 After that, we who are still alive and are left will be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air. And so we will be with the Lord forever.

Edit: thought of a supplementing point

The passage you cited has always been understood as a passage referring to the second coming.  The rapture as an event distinct from the second coming comes from dispensationalism which, as you said, began in the early 1800’s and remains popular in some protestant circles.

I don’t think it really comes down to Literal vs. symbolic but more about recognizing different genres within the Bible.  For example, the book of Revelation is best considered apocalyptic literature—so to read that book as though it were prose, as the Left Behind series does, can hardly be considered a “literal interpretation”.  It would be like trying to read a Ben Hogan book as though it were poetry.

Camping’s teaching is so far out there it really doesn’t fit in any established theological category, he uses some biblical language, but he’s really out there on his own….counting his money I suppose.

[nuck81]

Originally Posted by bunkerputt

That's a great post.  I agree with everything you said except "Suffice to say it may be come to circumstance that literal interpretation of the Bible may lead to many Christians failing to recognize and rejecting Christs second coming, if it hasn't already happened."  I assume you mean "literal interpretation may lead to failure to recognize Christ's second coming, which second coming may have already happened" rather than the less obvious "literal interpretation may have already lead to a failure to recognize Christ's second coming"

Acts 1:11 - "Men of Galilee," they said, "why do you stand here looking into the sky? This same Jesus, who has been taken from you into heaven, will come back in the same way you have seen him go into heaven."

It's a coming like a thief in that it is sudden and unexpected to take something away from us.  Not so much about the sneakiness of it.  But good post nonetheless.

I don't exactly disagree with you, but I would say that it depends on your point of view.

Members of the Baha'i Faith, which I am not a declared member but am studying the theology, believe that Baha'u'llah fulfills all the requirements of Christs second coming.

Mathew 24:42-44 is the parable of the Thief in the Night.  Baha'u'llah used Jesus own explanation of the Parable in verse 45 as his own interpretation. I am paraphrasing but basically, The Servants who were supposed to watch the masters house, fell asleep and missed the Thiefs coming and didn't realize he had been till the Thief had left. Baha'u'llah stated that Evangelical Christianity and literal interpretation of parable and prophecy is the same as falling asleep spiritually. Therefore you must be ready and listen and watch with a SPIRITUAL eye and ear, rather than a literal one.  The Second coming of Christ was never intended to be Christ in his new name literally descending from the clouds of Heaven. Baha'u'llahs ministry began in 1844 right in the middle of maelstrom of literal Bible Interpretation and they believe that his coming was missed by most of the Christian Community.

Again, I'm not a declared Baha'i but I do love theology and religion.  So I find it all very interesting.

Here is a link describing the Baha'i perspective on the rapture...

http://www.bci.org/prophecy-fulfilled/rapture.htm

Edit: http://reference.bahai.org/en/t/ab/SAQ/saq-26.html  Also another good source straight from Abdul-Baha which was the eldest son of Baha'u'llah

[bplewis24]

Originally Posted by nuck81

Therefore you must be ready and listen and watch with a SPIRITUAL eye and ear, rather than a literal one.  The Second coming of Christ was never intended to be Christ in his new name literally descending from the clouds of Heaven. Baha'u'llahs ministry began in 1844 right in the middle of maelstrom of literal Bible Interpretation and they believe that his coming was missed by most of the Christian Community.

Hmm, but then couldn't that be interpreted as suggesting that those literal acts will never manifest themselves in anything other than a spiritual sense?  That almost sounds like an acknowledgement that certain aspects of religion aren't "real" in the sense that the stories and prophecies foretold haven't/won't happen.

Brandon

[BigDaddy]

Wait it has only been postponed!

[jamo]

Dammit! Why are these things always supposed to happen on my birthday or the day before! Have doomsday preachers teamed up to prevent my aging? http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20110524/ap_on_re_us/us_apocalypse_saturday

[nuck81]

Originally Posted by bplewis24

Hmm, but then couldn't that be interpreted as suggesting that those literal acts will never manifest themselves in anything other than a spiritual sense?  That almost sounds like an acknowledgement that certain aspects of religion aren't "real" in the sense that the stories and prophecies foretold haven't/won't happen.

Brandon

Not exactly. They just won't happen in ways that we expect or understand at first.

Christians accept that Jesus Christ was the Messiah Moses talked about in the Old Testament and Torah.  People of the Baha'i Faith also believe that Jesus was the Messiah.  Baha'is also believe that Jesus was the Son of God, born of the Virgin Mary, lived a perfect life completely free of Sin, and was crucified for the better of all mankind. Therefore they say nothing to deny the divinity of Christ.  That's not really my point though.  Basically Jesus fulfilled all the prophecies by Moses, Daniel, and the other Old Testament prophets, despite not coming as the Pharisee expected which led to them denying Jesus and claiming him a false Messiah.

"The Messiah will sit upon the Throne of David"  Jesus had no throne

"Mt Zion will dance in the day of the Messiah"  Mountains can't Dance

"The Messiah will rule with a sword"  Jesus didn't have a sword and actually taught love and peace

"He will be a Son of David" Jesus was born of a Virgin

"Daniel said the Messiah would be a Prince" Jesus was a Carpenter

It was Jesus failing to LITERALLY fulfill these scriptures that led to his rejection from the Jews. According to Baha'is Jesus second coming as Baha'u'llah (Baha'u'llah means the Glory of God) happened the same manner.

Again I am not a declared Baha'i, so I'm not trying to Witness or convert (something the Baha'is don't believe in doing anyway) Just trying add a different perspective. :)

[Kieran123]

Meh. It's not the first time he's got it wrong....now it's set for October. To put it bluntly, the guy should be locked up. He has ruined peoples lives. But the people following him are just as stupid I guess.

Why can't people accept we're of the same importance as a lion....or a dog. Just another animal doing our thing

I would hate to be thinking about some sort of rapture all the time....

[bplewis24]

Originally Posted by nuck81

Not exactly. They just won't happen in ways that we expect or understand at first.

Christians accept that Jesus Christ was the Messiah Moses talked about in the Old Testament and Torah.  People of the Baha'i Faith also believe that Jesus was the Messiah.  Baha'is also believe that Jesus was the Son of God, born of the Virgin Mary, lived a perfect life completely free of Sin, and was crucified for the better of all mankind. Therefore they say nothing to deny the divinity of Christ.  That's not really my point though.  Basically Jesus fulfilled all the prophecies by Moses, Daniel, and the other Old Testament prophets, despite not coming as the Pharisee expected which led to them denying Jesus and claiming him a false Messiah.

"The Messiah will sit upon the Throne of David"  Jesus had no throne

"Mt Zion will dance in the day of the Messiah"  Mountains can't Dance

"The Messiah will rule with a sword"  Jesus didn't have a sword and actually taught love and peace

"He will be a Son of David" Jesus was born of a Virgin

"Daniel said the Messiah would be a Prince" Jesus was a Carpenter

It was Jesus failing to LITERALLY fulfill these scriptures that led to his rejection from the Jews. According to Baha'is Jesus second coming as Baha'u'llah (Baha'u'llah means the Glory of God) happened the same manner.

Again I am not a declared Baha'i, so I'm not trying to Witness or convert (something the Baha'is don't believe in doing anyway) Just trying add a different perspective. :)

Trust me I'm enjoying your contributions to the thread, so no need for the disclaimer.  I'm truly curious about all aspects of religion, despite the fact that I grew up in a Christian-based faith and practiced for over 20 years.  By the way, not to diminish the rest of your post, but the bolded portion had me busting up laughing :)

Originally Posted by Kieran123

I would hate to be thinking about some sort of rapture all the time....

Ahh, yes, but it is precisely that fear that makes a lot of the religious rhetoric so effective to the more extreme congregations.

Brandon

[mck]

Originally Posted by Kieran123

Meh. It's not the first time he's got it wrong....now it's set for October. To put it bluntly, the guy should be locked up. He has ruined peoples lives. But the people following him are just as stupid I guess.

Why can't people accept we're of the same importance as a lion....or a dog. Just another animal doing our thing

I would hate to be thinking about some sort of rapture all the time....

I'd agree that his followers are stupid.  There's alot of information out there on this guy and they chose to ignore that and give him their money--so it's their loss.

But, if we are all just animals "doing our thing" why can't Harold Camping just be an animal and predicting the end of the world while accepting donations just be his thing?

[Kieran123]

Originally Posted by mck

I'd agree that his followers are stupid.  There's alot of information out there on this guy and they chose to ignore that and give him their money--so it's their loss.

But, if we are all just animals "doing our thing" why can't Harold Camping just be an animal and predicting the end of the world while accepting donations just be his thing?

Sadly, he can, and he is :-) He is a shepherd and his sheep will follow him

But, his donations have trounced 100 million. Why you would need $100 million before a 'rapture' is beyond me.

[zeg]

Originally Posted by Kieran123

I would hate to be thinking about some sort of rapture all the time....

When I play like I did the last time out, I'm pretty much thinking about it after every shot...

[BostonSully]

Originally Posted by Kieran123

Sadly, he can, and he is :-) He is a shepherd and his sheep will follow him

But, his donations have trounced 100 million. Why you would need $100 million before a 'rapture' is beyond me.

Oh and he's not giving any back. 88 Year old dude just made a fool out of thousands of people. I mean what does he care about the rapture for anyways he'll be gone soon enough.