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Posted

I'm not a fan of carts, mostly because I'm cheap, but there are a couple courses in my area where they're rather necessary.  One course I know of has a few instances where the next tee is about 300 yards away due to terrain.  Not using a cart creates a serious bottleneck on those holes.

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Posted


  wmiller said:
Originally Posted by wmiller

No, some/many people may be ignorant, but just as many (if not more) are arrogant, narcissistic idiots who think the rules apply to other people, because they're better than everyone else.

The scenario you describe above would have me walking to my car without even paying. After reading (the post) I came away with the impression of 'you are the great unwashed, but we want your money. Do what we tell you, and follow the rest of the herd, you sheeple.'

REALLY glad I live down here, with my miserable 4.25 hour rounds and no marshals...   ;)




Sorry if my post came off as elitist or something similar.  After reading it myself, I could see how it could be taken wrong.  What I was trying to describe is a good course, one that goes out of their way to make it a good round for everyone while teaching you how to ensure everyone else enjoys the day.  Getting a divot repair tool and lesson on how to repair divots is a bad thing?  Being reminded on what ready golf is and why it's important is a bad thing?  Being reminded what tees you should play from based on your ability is a bad thing?

The point is that management at a course has a responsibility to ensure all players enjoy their day, since they all paid.  With some guidance, friendly reminders, and tactful enforcement, they can pull this off.

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Posted

Quote:

  iacas said:

Get over it. Some courses aren't built with greens and tees close enough to make walking feasible, and people who know how to play in carts can play faster than people walking.

Courses that intermingle their holes with housing developments cause problems here. The course I play regularly has two holes with tees about 300 yds. from the previous green, plus a quarter-mile winding ride through a wilderness-safe area to get from No. 3 tee box to landing area across a gorge.

Another course has three spots where the next tee is about 300+ yards from the last green. Basically, the walkers get "run over" by the cart people in these situations.

Another source of slow play can be strange routing. One example is a quality country club that allows outsiders, the other a strange forest stretch course. At both courses, you sometimes get from one green to the next tee box by "going to another part of the course." The country club has a misleading, low-resolution sketch on the back of the scorecard, and newbies can take a wrong turn and lose a half hour if they truly get lost. The forest course has you drive all over creation on the back nine to get to the next tee. If they would reverse directions on a parallel par 4 and par 5, they could cut down on about a half-mile of needless driving (or walking).

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Posted


  iacas said:
Originally Posted by iacas

Get over it. Some courses aren't built with greens and tees close enough to make walking feasible, and people who know how to play in carts can play faster than people walking.

I prefer to walk, too, but sometimes I ride. Sometimes because I'm forced to, sometimes because I want to play 18 holes with a buddy in under two hours (without rushing). :-)


I've only played it a few times, but TPC Boston is like that. If you are walking and there is a cart group behind you, there is a pretty good chance that you are going to get passed between holes at some point. I've played a few other courses similar to that, but TPC is the worst.

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Posted


  jamo said:
Originally Posted by jamo

I've only played it a few times, but TPC Boston is like that. If you are walking and there is a cart group behind you, there is a pretty good chance that you are going to get passed between holes at some point. I've played a few other courses similar to that, but TPC is the worst.


Maybe it's a DC Metro thing, but you couldn't reasonably walk any of the courses I play.  On some holes, the green and next tee are 300 yards from each other.

CARBITE Putter


Posted

Not to dwell on this topic, but forgot to mention another way management can speed play- gps on carts.  At my membership course, the carts have gps.  This does several things.  First, players know the lay out of each hole and distances just by quickly looking at the screen.  When they come to their ball, they immediately know the distance and can select a club.  Most importantly, there is a round clock that monitors your time on the course.  It gives you reminders along the way, such as 'You should be approaching the 5th tee right now."  It is based on a 4:20 round, and lets you know if you're on time, 2 minutes behind, 3 minutes ahead, etc.

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  • Moderator
Posted
I've played on courses, most of them in the UK, where only 100, 150 and 200 stakes were available. My estimates were pretty decent. GPS helps speed play but I think we're better than we think in guessing distances.

Steve

Kill slow play. Allow walking. Reduce ineffective golf instruction. Use environmentally friendly course maintenance.

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Posted
  uttexas said:
There is a shocking lack of short par 3 courses, probably because they don't make a lot of money (no cart fee, no beverage person, no lunch at the turn). There are over 100 public golf courses in DFW, and I can only think of two par three courses. Par 3 courses are a nice transition from learning the game on the driving range/putting green/chipping area to playing 18 holes. Thus, many beginners are learning on 18 long holes of golf. Learning on a par 3 encourages fast play (just bring an iron, a wedge, and a putter) Par 3 courses can be played in under an hour for less that $8. If there were more par 3 courses, there would be more golfers and more golfers better prepared to play 18.

This is probably the best thread I've read so far in my short time on TST. The post by uttexas I think hits the nail on the head. Lots of well thought out opinions by many other posters and the central issues seem to be of time, money, & standard of play. They would all go a long way to being solved by 9 hole par 3 courses being available. I coach both my boys aged 5 and 7. One should not attempt to relive one's youth through one's children but I'm dammed if one of my boys ever gets called up for bad etiquette on a golf course having had me to learn from. The ONLY sensible place I am able to teach them is on a quiet day at the par 3 course attached to our championship course. The first day I ever took them to play "proper" golf (after six months on and off at the range) was on this par 3 course. I did everything by the book including swapping score cards and marking each other's score after every hole. We only managed 5 holes cause the little one tired out. We let about four groups past in this time. Every grain of bunker entered was raked to a fine finish. Every good shot applauded. Playing order was strict to the rules. This was not to make them think golf is too strict (actually they really got into the etiquette rules & were trying to outdo each other!) but to give them a basis from which to always return in the future. They will only venture out onto a full course when I'm confident they can get the ball into the hole from 150 yards out within four strkes or we pick up & move on. In Denmark most courses Do Not allow you to play until you have accompanied the pro and played the first four holes less than 10 over! In another of the European countries you have to pass an etiquette test to be allowed on the course! All this can only be achieved if there are plenty of cheap par 3 courses. My mate who plays off a 2 handicap practices all his golf on the par 3 playing two balls. He says that's all he needs to tune up his game as the only thing missing is the driver tee shot which he says he can practice at the range picking specific targets.


Posted

As for par-three courses, I grew up and learned the game on par-three courses, so I completely understand the appeal. Unfortunately, it seems like a lot of people around here seem to think that men playing par-three courses is some sort of sign of weakness, and only the women and children should be allowed. It's a real shame, too. I played an 18-hole course today that also has a nine-hole, par-three course course. The nine-hole course was all women and juniors. I paid for 18 holes, but after spending 3.5 hours on the front nine I just left. It was terrible, the game just stopped being fun. The two duffers that I got paired up with (and the four that I was stuck behind) could have used a little experience on the par-three course.

  mattttt25 said:
Originally Posted by mattttt25

Not to dwell on this topic, but forgot to mention another way management can speed play- gps on carts.  At my membership course, the carts have gps.  This does several things.  First, players know the lay out of each hole and distances just by quickly looking at the screen.  When they come to their ball, they immediately know the distance and can select a club.  Most importantly, there is a round clock that monitors your time on the course.  It gives you reminders along the way, such as 'You should be approaching the 5th tee right now."  It is based on a 4:20 round, and lets you know if you're on time, 2 minutes behind, 3 minutes ahead, etc.



I've played a few resort courses that have GPS systems in the carts and for me, the absolute best part was that the other carts on the course also showed up on the large GPS screen, so the moment they were out of range, we knew we were okay to hit. There was no "Okay, they're over the other side of that hill, maybe they'll be gone in five minutes...Well, I don't see them coming up the other side yet, we should wait...Oh geez, it that them on the green? Crap we should have hit 10 minutes ago." The second we were good to go, we got up to the tee and hit the ball. It was great.

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Posted
The majority of posts focused on what golfers do wrong. I feel developers and owners obsessed with high end courses are the biggest problem. By making every transaction a profit center they have squeezed out entry level golfers, especially women and young adults. By chasing cart revenue and treating new corses as first opprotunities to build the maximum number of new houses they have created courses with huge fixed costs. Many couses are basically closed after rain if carts are not pernitted or confine carts to the expensive to build and maintain paths. The modern expectation that course condition be strive towards tht Agusta model is counter productive as well. By the way I Am tired of receiving cups of ice with a splash of cola for stadium prices. Golf is not a spectaor activity, gouging golfers for bottled water or soft drinks turns people off and is short sighted. If these kinds of issues are not addressed , new golfers will be scarce. I didn't even broach the silliness of womens tees etc.

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Posted


  allin said:
Originally Posted by allin

The majority of posts focused on what golfers do wrong. I feel developers and owners obsessed with high end courses are the biggest problem. By making every transaction a profit center they have squeezed out entry level golfers, especially women and young adults. By chasing cart revenue and treating new corses as first opprotunities to build the maximum number of new houses they have created courses with huge fixed costs. Many couses are basically closed after rain if carts are not pernitted or confine carts to the expensive to build and maintain paths. The modern expectation that course condition be strive towards tht Agusta model is counter productive as well.


You are of course absolutely right. But you might as well rail against our global economic system itself, since that is the driver of the relentlessly finer sifting of every facet of every experience for potential contribution to overall return on investment. I think that the era of "mass leisure" is coming to an end and that golf, skiing etc. will gradually return to their former niches as pastimes, largely, of the idle rich.

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Posted
I think that people need more patience. The world doesn't revolve around one person, everyone pays the same amount, let them hit from where they want. Who am I to decide how someone plays. If I get lucky and the person in front of me is faster, that's great. If not I'll get over it and enjoy my game. Life is short learn some patience.

Posted


  Slowswing said:
Originally Posted by Slowswing

I think that people need more patience. The world doesn't revolve around one person, everyone pays the same amount, let them hit from where they want. Who am I to decide how someone plays. If I get lucky and the person in front of me is faster, that's great. If not I'll get over it and enjoy my game. Life is short learn some patience.



that's a refreshing comment.  i've played with too many people that were over-obsessed with the pace of play.  its like getting pissed at traffic in LA... its always there, and yes, it can be horrid, but what do you expect?   enjoy yourself!

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Posted

I think time is actually a big factor as well as cost. Time & Cost I think are the two main contributors to the declining participation in the game nationwide. My cousin, for example, makes six figures, he's in his mid 30's and would love to play a lot of golf. He's not all that good, probably shoots in the low 90's on a good day...but with his job, he simply does not have the time to join a club or play a lot each year...He would love to be able to join a nice club. He certainly has the money to do so, being single and making six figures...but his job demands so many hours out of his time, he never really has a chance to get out much. I think that is a major problem with many people - especially young ones. There are plenty of early 30 year olds who have the money to play, but they have jobs that demand a lot of time. Then you have others who have the time, but don't really have the money to play much...

So IMO time & money are the two biggest factors....

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Posted

If we are talking about specifically the biggest reason why the participation has declined I would say money as well. Golf is expensive, even cheaper courses. If you want to play on a weekend.. 30$ plus gas/food w/e you spend. Many people (that are considering learning the game)can't justify that. I have no idea what your average income is but, most anyone with a family to support can't afford to do that once every weekend. Or even once a month in some cases. You also have to consider the price of budget clubs that are worth playing. 200-300$  plus shoes/balls. It's just a pricey sport.

One of the best investments for me was making a range in my garage hitting against a blanket. Spent about 50$ and I can hit 3/400 balls a day for free. Even the range is expensive. 8$ for 60/70 balls. That can add up quick as well.


Posted


  Slowswing said:
Originally Posted by Slowswing

If we are talking about specifically the biggest reason why the participation has declined I would say money as well. Golf is expensive, even cheaper courses. If you want to play on a weekend.. 30$ plus gas/food w/e you spend. Many people (that are considering learning the game)can't justify that. I have no idea what your average income is but, most anyone with a family to support can't afford to do that once every weekend. Or even once a month in some cases. You also have to consider the price of budget clubs that are worth playing. 200-300$  plus shoes/balls. It's just a pricey sport.

One of the best investments for me was making a range in my garage hitting against a blanket. Spent about 50$ and I can hit 3/400 balls a day for free. Even the range is expensive. 8$ for 60/70 balls. That can add up quick as well.


Hitting against a blanket in your garage is nothing like hitting at a real driving range. You have no idea where your golf ball is going. The only feedback you get is if it feels 'solid' off the club face...And if you're a beginner, you probably don't know how it feels to hit a shot to the right/left, draw, fade, etc. Something like that is great in the winter time when there is no alternative - but IMO that won't do all that much for your game if your doing that consistently.

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  • Moderator
Posted

I agree with Jamo that the gps positions of other carts is very useful, especially for hilly and unfamiliar courses. Maybe someone can make a version of Google Latitude golf for smartphones although people get freaked out by privacy concerns.

A component of time - travel, I think, is a big factor in golf appeal. Not all of us are a 15 minute drive from a course and not all of us can step onto a course and play without waiting. Compare golf to cycling, running - I can step out the door and immediately I am doing the sport. Even tennis, bball, yoga, spin, swimming is a minor time hit to get started. Golf, different story. Drive. Pay. Wait to get on. Wait on each hole to play the next hole. If there was a course and range right outside my apartment, I'd be such a better player by now. It's at least 25 minutes, one way to a range for me, 1.5 hours, to a course. Many times I don't play just thinking of the commute.

Steve

Kill slow play. Allow walking. Reduce ineffective golf instruction. Use environmentally friendly course maintenance.

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