The importance of the grip with regards to swing plane...

[B of H]

Just thought i'd share something that i've stumbled upon that has solved some issues.  I've been struggling for years with a pull/hook (5 to as much as 20 yards) and some inconsistent yardages with my irons.  I knew I had some issues with the club getting too flat/inside then across the line at the top and have been trying to get the club on plane going back.  I couldn't figure it out and I had to manipulate the club in order to do so which led to some serious accuracy issues and my scores were going up.  I started trying to hit shots with just my left and right hand on the range.  I could not hit the ball well at all with just the left and I hit pull/draws with the right half the time although I could hit it solid every time.  I decided to take a closer look at my grip and got out some old books for reference.  My grip looked fine at first but upon closer inspection:

I was holding the club too much in the fingers on the left hand specifically the club inside the pad of my pinkie finger.  My right hand was too strong and I was not getting enough pressure/contact between my thumb/index and my right thumb was almost on top of the left thumb or at least close to being so which put my right thumb also on the same side of the grip as the left.  Consequently my left hand wasn't controlling the club enough and my right hand was causing me to get the club inside and closed then across the line at the top and eventually to close the clubface through impact.

The new grip feels weird and uncomfortable but when I take it back the club is square and on-plane the entire time and my pull hook is gone.  So basically it fixed all my issues from a swing plane and shot pattern perspective.  The funny thing though is when I was hitting shots around the green (pitches and flops etc...) my grip was a lot closer (although it was still a little strong with the right)and I didn't even realize it was any different and this was purely subconcious.

So anyway, maybe someone reads this and it helps.  I'm excited to play tomorrow even though i'm sure i'll feel awkward with the grip change.

[Harmonious]

Thanks for posting this.  I think it proves that even as we get lower in handicap, subtle things can creep into our game which make a big difference.  I, too, have to be careful to check my grip to ensure that I don't set up with a closed face, or else it's pull city.

I know that some here do not feel that grip is as important as other aspects.  I would disagree completely, and B of H has provided a great example. And why else would Hogan devote 18 pages to it?

[soloredd]

For me, my grip is in the top 3 of most important things in my golf game (along with tempo and mental focus). I've made a thread or two here before about my grip being inconsistent, battling hooks and fighting plane issues. I finally, finally figured it out at the end of March and my game has been as good as it ever has been.

[iacas]

Originally Posted by Harmonious

I know that some here do not feel that grip is as important as other aspects. I would disagree completely, and B of H has provided a great example. And why else would Hogan devote 18 pages to it?

Your man crush on all things Hogan continues, I see. Hogan built a swing that wouldn't hook. The grip was an important part of that... The problem is, Hogan told people only one way to grip the club, and while it's relatively important to have a decent grip, the actual particulars are less important than you continue to believe. Also, despite reports, Hogan wasn't all-knowing. Sam Snead's grip wasn't like Hogan's at all. Snead did pretty well. Same for Byron Nelson. And Tiger. And Jack.

You've stated this accurately, though: the grip is not as important as other aspects . It's just not. Just because it was one of the last pieces for this person doesn't mean it wasn't important at all, and nobody's ever said such a thing. It's simply a matter of priorities and commonalities. Find the commonalities in grips among the game's best... you won't. Tiger until recently had a grip very much in the palm of his hands, and not even "right hand below left for a righty" is a commonality anymore!

The commonalities among the game's best are

CAN grip affect swing plane or the swing in general? Of course. We often tweak someone's grip because it's so easy to do... but if we were to order the things they needed to change in their swing, the list might look like this:

1. Low point behind the ball, part a. - Difficult
2. Low point behind the ball, part b. - VERY difficult.
3. Low point behind the ball, part c. - Hard
4. Curve/cone control part a. - Hard.
5. Curve/cone control part b (grip). - Super easy.
6. Curve/cone control part c (alignment) - Easy.

In that list you work on thing #1, but you might also throw in #5 because it's pretty easy. When he gets to #2 you might throw in #6 as well because the student can absorb "two things at once," perhaps.

But you could also work through 1, 2, 3, and 4 and drastically help the player. If you only gave them a lesson and worked on 5 and 6, they would not improve much at all. If they ONLY got two of the other pieces, they'd improve quite a bit.

That's the point I continue to make and which you continue to misunderstand or something. Grip is important. It's simply not as important as other things. Because I can: a) hit the ground in front of the ball, b) hit the ball relatively far, and control the curve of my shots, I could grip the club virtually any which way and still hit good golf shots all day long. Super strong, super weak. In the fingers, in the palms. Would it change a little bit of my swing? Sure. But I could go play golf.

Grip, alignment, posture, stance/setup - they're all less important than other things, and the game's best bear this out. Grips are variances, not commonalities.

Grips are important. They'll affect not only the clubface at impact (less than you think - we're pretty good as humans at keeping the face close to where it needs to be) and more importantly they'll affect the location of the hinge pin, the wrist conditions at various stages of the swing, the location of the clubhead, and a few other things. But, generally, they're just not as important as other things.

And in the hands of a poor teacher, a grip change is little more than a band-aid fix. Guy swinging really out to in... grip it stronger! There, the ball goes straight now. Yeah, straight, low, and 15 degrees left of your stance... :-P

Originally Posted by soloredd

For me, my grip is in the top 3 of most important things in my golf game (along with tempo and mental focus). I've made a thread or two here before about my grip being inconsistent, battling hooks and fighting plane issues. I finally, finally figured it out at the end of March and my game has been as good as it ever has been.

With all due respect, no, it's not. Though it may be important and an easy thing to fix, I guarantee you there are things that are far more important and would get you playing better golf whether you used your new grip or your old grip.

That's all I'm saying when I say it. I hope once and for all to have said it clearly now, as Harmonious likes to beat on this drum rather frequently...

[Harmonious]

My reasoning for responding to BofH was to point out that even low handicappers have flaws that can creep into their games without their noticing it.  I have talked with several pros about this, and their responses have always been the same.  Once you get down to a certain level (i.e. have a consistently repeatable swing) it is the fundamentals that you have to keep aware of.  Had BofH stated that he discovered that his alignment had gotten out of whack, I would have responded the same (except not included the grip references, of course).

As for my man-crush on Ben....guilty as charged.

[iacas]

Originally Posted by Harmonious

My reasoning for responding to BofH was to point out that even low handicappers have flaws that can creep into their games without their noticing it.  I have talked with several pros about this, and their responses have always been the same.  Once you get down to a certain level (i.e. have a consistently repeatable swing) it is the fundamentals that you have to keep aware of.  Had BofH stated that he discovered that his alignment had gotten out of whack, I would have responded the same (except not included the grip references, of course).

While true to an extent, pros content to stay at the same place or simply "maintain" will work on these "fundamentals" (as you will tend to call them), while pros who want to get better will work on other things.

Again, it's simply a matter of priorities. If you want to maintain, the priorities for learning new things drops and the "maintenance" ones (grip, alignment, posture, stance, etc.) remain high on the checklist. If you want to improve, they flip.

Very few people on here want to simply "maintain."

P.S. As you know, I like Hogan a ton as well. He's the only golfer I look at EVERY DAY of my life because his picture hangs in my office. Nobody else's does.

[B of H]

the point is that if your right hand and left hand are not 'palms facing' then you'll have an issue keeping the club on plane.  If your right hand is in a stronger position than your left the club will not hinge correctly shutting the face and pulling the shaft inside your hands eventually this will end up being across the line but also pointed more towards the sky.

[Elvisliveson]

Originally Posted by B of H

the point is that if your right hand and left hand are not 'palms facing' then you'll have an issue keeping the club on plane.  If your right hand is in a stronger position than your left the club will not hinge correctly shutting the face and pulling the shaft inside your hands eventually this will end up being across the line but also pointed more towards the sky.

Agree 100%. I have stated same on other threads here. The most important feature of your grip is the hands must be completely working together, regardless of whether you want a strong grip or a weak grip.  Meaning, you can't have a weak grip with your left hand and a strong grip with your right hand. There is no such thing, imo. The palms must be in agreement, if you will, on whatever type of grip you decide to go with.

[Gerald]

Originally Posted by iacas

And in the hands of a poor teacher, a grip change is little more than a band-aid fix. Guy swinging really out to in... grip it stronger! There, the ball goes straight now. Yeah, straight, low, and 15 degrees left of your stance... :-P

Originally Posted by Elvisliveson

Agree 100%. I have stated same on other threads here. The most important feature of your grip is the hands must be completely working together, regardless of whether you want a strong grip or a weak grip.  Meaning, you can't have a weak grip with your left hand and a strong grip with your right hand. There is no such thing, imo. The palms must be in agreement, if you will, on whatever type of grip you decide to go with.

Hands working together ..... Good Point !

When I am struggling with pushes ..... I can correct it with a simple fix, stronger grip, like you said with both hands working together and it works, but deep inside I know it is a swing issue. If I really want to solve the problem I need to work on a better rotation, etc..... but I can get away with a stronger grip, but the stronger grip doesn't feel natural or comfortable. So do I want to go for the quick fix or ........

I personally feel it is best to work on the swing, but that's me ..... !

[Harmonious]

Originally Posted by Gerald

When I am struggling with pushes ..... I can correct it with a simple fix, stronger grip, like you said with both hands working together and it works, but deep inside I know it is a swing issue. If I really want to solve the problem I need to work on a better rotation, etc..... but I can get away with a stronger grip, but the stronger grip doesn't feel natural or comfortable. So do I want to go for the quick fix or ........

Question:   Why do you know it's a swing issue? Perhaps your swing is absolutely fine, and you have had too weak of a grip all along.  When you use what you say is a slightly stronger grip, it may be the perfect grip for you.  If a "quick" fix allows you to play better golf, why not keep it?

At your level, your swing is probably fine.  Use the stronger grip, play better, go from there.

[saevel25]

there was a story in, "the Little red book" Harvey Penick, were one of his students played in a tourniment, and he saw the grip of this competator and thought, this match is won. That guy went out and thrashed him with the wierd grip. The reason, because he knew what to do with the club.

Look at this guy on the indigo well's show on gofl channel, he's a righty with a right hand low grip. He seems to be able to play golf pretty well.

Grip is important if its detrimental to the swing you have, but if it matches your swing and you can score with it, than thats cool. For me, i am a conventional golfer grip. I like my grip as strong as i can get it with out hooking the ball. It gives me more control of the ball and protects me from hitting it right. I hardly ever hook the ball, and only manage a slight draw, so i like to protect againts a big push slice.

[soloredd]

What would usually happen if a player had a neutral left hand and a stronger right hand (righty player)? Would that make it very difficult to get adequate wrist cock? Reason I ask is yesterday during my round I was struggling to get my irons up. Hit a lot of low shots, mainly with the 6 iron. For some reason with my mid irons I was using my normal neutral left but I think my right was too strong?

[Elvisliveson]

Originally Posted by soloredd

What would usually happen if a player had a neutral left hand and a stronger right hand (righty player)? Would that make it very difficult to get adequate wrist cock? Reason I ask is yesterday during my round I was struggling to get my irons up. Hit a lot of low shots, mainly with the 6 iron. For some reason with my mid irons I was using my normal neutral left but I think my right was too strong?

IMO, of course your grip is the problem in your case because your hands are employing two different grip positions. If you want a neutral grip, then both hands must be in the neutral position. If you want a stong grip, then both hands must be in a strong position. This means that the thumb of your left hand must fit securely into the pockect formed by your right palm. Put your left hand in the desired position (weak, neutral strong) on the grip then put your Right hand on top, so that both hands are working TOGETHER.

[iacas]

Originally Posted by Harmonious

Question:   Why do you know it's a swing issue? Perhaps your swing is absolutely fine, and you have had too weak of a grip all along.  When you use what you say is a slightly stronger grip, it may be the perfect grip for you.  If a "quick" fix allows you to play better golf, why not keep it?

Yeah, H might be surprised, but I'm with him on this. If that "fixes" things and doesn't introduce some sort of other problem, then I'm inclined to think the grip IS the fix for that...

Occam's Razor, friends. :-)

Originally Posted by saevel25

Look at this guy on the indigo well's show on gofl channel, he's a righty with a right hand low grip. He seems to be able to play golf pretty well.

Hey, I'm a righty with a right-hand low grip too! :-)

[Gerald]

Quote:

Question:   Why do you know it's a swing issue? Perhaps your swing is absolutely fine, and you have had too weak of a grip all along.  When you use what you say is a slightly stronger grip, it may be the perfect grip for you.  If a "quick" fix allows you to play better golf, why not keep it?

At your level, your swing is probably fine.  Use the stronger grip, play better, go from there.

This afternoon I had a series of bad tee shots till the 6th hole, where I thought what the heck, try the strong grip ..... dead straight 290 yds landed just short of the green and rolled within 6 ft. of the hole ...... made the putt for and eagle on a short par 4.

At the 13th carried the left fairway bunkers that need a draw 250+ at the 14th hit a huge drive left of the fairway .......

Geeee who knows how stupid this feels, I hit so many fairways .......

Quote:

Hey, I'm a righty with a right-hand low grip too! :-)

LOL !!!!

[saevel25]

My bad, left hand low, oops, i am so use to golf i messed up the switch up.. Yep i am right hand low to, lets make a club...

[The Recreational Golfer]

Here's Cary Middleocff's take on the grip, which makes sense to me. It's from his book, The Golf Swing .

"Far more shots than most golfers might believe are mis-hit or hit off line because of inconsistent gripping. In actual play, gripping the club tends to be an automatic thing, the player taking it for granted that he is not varying his grip from shot to shot. But the fact is that it is quite easy to vary the grip slightly without being aware of it, and just a slight variance can make a vast difference in how the shot comes off. Hence the player who is familiar enough with his own grip to detect slight changes in it through feel is at a distinct advantage."

[Harmonious]

Originally Posted by Gerald

Quote:

This afternoon I had a series of bad tee shots till the 6th hole, where I thought what the heck, try the strong grip ..... dead straight 290 yds landed just short of the green and rolled within 6 ft. of the hole ...... made the putt for and eagle on a short par 4.

At the 13th carried the left fairway bunkers that need a draw 250+ at the 14th hit a huge drive left of the fairway .......

Geeee who knows how stupid this feels, I hit so many fairways .......

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