How bad can a plus capper play? AKA I played with a very delusional man today

[sean_miller]

Originally Posted by bplewis24

So he hit some bad shots...but how did he score?

I've seen Anthony Kim and Graeme McDowell hit a bunch of hooks in a round and still play close to par or better.  Everybody hits bad shots, but when it comes to these anecdotes, I'm more interested in knowing how they scored amongst all of those poor shots.  In theory, that should be what separates them from us.

Brandon

I've never actually seen someone hit a "duck hook" with an iron. Is that even possible?

[bplewis24]

Sean, you need to come play with me.  I will show things you've never dreamed of.

[TourSpoon]

Originally Posted by Leftygolfer

One thing I believe (no real facts to back this up) is that as you get better it is harder to improve.  It heck of a lot easier to improve from a 8 to a 6 than from a 2 to a 0.  I'm not saying it is easy but there are more places to save strokes thus more room for improvement.

To some extent you run into the law of diminishing returns and it gets harder to improve as you put more effort into your game until you get to a point where more effort has no effect at all or even a negative effect.

Originally Posted by sean_miller

I've never actually seen someone hit a "duck hook" with an iron. Is that even possible?

Possible...done it with the long irons.

[Bigtank]

Originally Posted by TourSpoon

Going back to Tour Quality, the biggest difference that you will see when you play with a Tour Quality player (besides the unreal ballstriking) is their ability to make par from anywhere. If you go to a Tour event you will see the same tee shots, approaches, etc., but what really separates the guys at this level is around the greens, and we are not talking much here but maybe a stroke a round. Golf at the highest level is a game of making the best mistake when a mistake happens. I have friends that play to scratch who may have quite a few birdies a round, but they also card some bogeys. Granted the ballstriking is not on par with the best, but it would be considered local elite. They are still not playing the game the guys on TV are playing, but next to the average Joe, they are impressive in their own right. And again, it is easy to separate the players from the posers!

I’m sorry, but this is absolutely ridiculous!!!

There are phenomenal chasms between your average +handicappers and Nationwide or PGA caliber players.  First off most + handicappers are 1 or 2 handicaps in reality, because they rarely strictly adhering to the rules…

I play several times a year with a current PGA tour player and on my “real” golf course with all its imperfections and no galleries or fore caddies or cameras (73.9 / 129  Par 72 7383yds) he shot 61 I shot 69.  I don’t care what you think you see on TV or you have “seen” at your local tour stop, you have no idea how good these guys are.  The consistent repeatable swing and distance control, controlled ball flighting, spin control...etc

To answer the OP question…

A few weeks ago I shot a 47 on the front nine of a tournament.  I was not clearing and blocking it dead right.  This particular course was tight with tight out-of-bounds.  Making the turn I was able to correct my issue and shot 30 on the back.  That was by far the worst round in a long while.

I can’t remember the last time I told someone my handicap, especially the stranger I am paired with.  POSER all the way

[Harmonious]

Originally Posted by Bigtank

There are phenomenal chasms between your average +handicappers and Nationwide or PGA caliber players.  First off most + handicappers are 1 or 2 handicaps in reality, because they rarely strictly adhering to the rules…

I play several times a year with a current PGA tour player and on my “real” golf course with all its imperfections and no galleries or fore caddies or cameras (73.9 / 129  Par 72 7383yds) he shot 61 I shot 69.  I don’t care what you think you see on TV or you have “seen” at your local tour stop, you have no idea how good these guys are.  The consistent repeatable swing and distance control, controlled ball flighting, spin control...etc

But, to be fair, you aren't saying that he averages 61 every time he plays your course.  What would you say his average score is for the several times he plays with you, and what is your average score.  That would be a better indication of the gap between a touring pro and a + capper.  If his average score is 8 strokes better than your average score, I would be surprised.  I could see 4 strokes better (unless you are one of those + cappers who is really a 1 or 2). Just kidding.

[TourSpoon]

Originally Posted by TourSpoon

Sorry, I have to go with Johnny.

I had a friend that was top 10 Canadian Tour in the 90s that stopped by the club I was working at to play a practice round before he made his way to play in a few PGA events later in the season. Now you have to realize that before playing in Canada, he had played the Australasian Tour, the Tommy Armour Tour, Golden Bear, Hogan, etc. The point is this guy had been around and had a swing that stopped people in their tracks. He was built like Ogilvy and had the tempo of Els. I set up a match on our course that was playing about 6700 yards (again in the 90s where we played the old school metal drivers with balata balls) and he had a mere 7 birdies from imperfect bunkers, wirey lies, bare fairways, and greens running about 7s on a course he had never seen before. The only blemish was on a blind tee shot that I gave him a bad line because I didn't realize that he could hit it so far and he hit it in a lake and had to drop behind a tree for double and final score of 67. He went on to play a few PGA events, Nationwide, etc and never made the big time. The point is you don't know how good these guys are when a Tour hopeful can have a day like that on an imperfect course sight unseen. These guys aren't good, they are %^&*#! good.  I played with him on a few other occasions and saw him shoot just under par on a day with the wind blowing 20, gusting to 30.  There is where I saw him a lot of "Quail High" draws under the wind that literally blew us away. Another acquaintance is a Florida mini-tour player and is no where near the caliber of this guy. He routinely shoots low to mid 60s on local courses that he knows from the tips which are usually playing @ 7000. Again, this guy is not even tour material, but he can play serious golf on the plus side.

Now to be honest, I have also met guys who claim to have game and can't play to a 5 on a regular basis. No one would ever mistake one of these posers for either of the two players mentioned above even on their worst days.

Originally Posted by TourSpoon

Going back to Tour Quality, the biggest difference that you will see when you play with a Tour Quality player (besides the unreal ballstriking) is their ability to make par from anywhere. If you go to a Tour event you will see the same tee shots, approaches, etc., but what really separates the guys at this level is around the greens, and we are not talking much here but maybe a stroke a round. Golf at the highest level is a game of making the best mistake when a mistake happens. I have friends that play to scratch who may have quite a few birdies a round, but they also card some bogeys. Granted the ballstriking is not on par with the best, but it would be considered local elite. They are still not playing the game the guys on TV are playing, but next to the average Joe, they are impressive in their own right. And again, it is easy to separate the players from the posers!

Originally Posted by Bigtank

I’m sorry, but this is absolutely ridiculous!!!

There are phenomenal chasms between your average +handicappers and Nationwide or PGA caliber players.  First off most + handicappers are 1 or 2 handicaps in reality, because they rarely strictly adhering to the rules…

I play several times a year with a current PGA tour player and on my “real” golf course with all its imperfections and no galleries or fore caddies or cameras (73.9 / 129  Par 72 7383yds) he shot 61 I shot 69.  I don’t care what you think you see on TV or you have “seen” at your local tour stop, you have no idea how good these guys are.  The consistent repeatable swing and distance control, controlled ball flighting, spin control...etc

To answer the OP question…

A few weeks ago I shot a 47 on the front nine of a tournament.  I was not clearing and blocking it dead right.  This particular course was tight with tight out-of-bounds.  Making the turn I was able to correct my issue and shot 30 on the back.  That was by far the worst round in a long while.

I can’t remember the last time I told someone my handicap, especially the stranger I am paired with.  POSER all the way

Tank, not sure why your panties are in a twist over this but what you said is basically what I said. A "local elite" player who may be a plus is not playing the same game as the guys on TV, but next to the average Joe they are impressive in their own right. The example of you versus the pro is exactly what I am talking about. You guys are not playing the same game, not even close.  The point about the guys who are on Tour is valid. They basically hit the same drives and approaches, but what separates the guys getting a check and the ones not getting one can be as small as one stroke a round and is usually seen in the u/d department.

[senorchipotle]

Honestly, I wouldn't go so far as to say the tour/tour quality guys are playing a different brand of golf, which sounds as if they are 20 yards pass the avg. guy on any given hole. Back in college I played many rounds with the guys on the golf team some of whom are on various tours ranging from the canadian, asian, nationwide and pga. My good tee shots and approaches were just as good as theirs, but I noticed a few things which sort of changed the way I thought about golf.

1. they think every shot through and visualize the ideal shot vs. their typical miss with their next shot in mind.

2. they are all FANTASTIC putters by our standards.

3. they have an excellent wedge game.

[DJYoshi]

Originally Posted by Tomboys

Didn't you get the memo?  The asylum gives the patients day passes on Fridays.  Sponsored by Allstate, eh?

Maybe you should've told him his grip needs to look like this:

Not like this:

that is freakin CLASSIC!

on a side note, I'm a WEAK -1.3. I can shoot par 1 day...and shoot an 83 the next day... that was my weekend of scoring

71 at my home course 133

83 at Great Gorge 134

78 at Architects 139

for 2 weeks I couldn't get rid of a snap hook off the tee to save my life! hopefully you can see him again and see how he really is

[The_Pharaoh]

Originally Posted by DJYoshi

that is freakin CLASSIC!

on a side note, I'm a WEAK -1.3. I can shoot par 1 day...and shoot an 83 the next day... that was my weekend of scoring

71 at my home course 133

83 at Great Gorge 134

78 at Architects 139

for 2 weeks I couldn't get rid of a snap hook off the tee to save my life! hopefully you can see him again and see how he really is

I can relate to this. I can shoot 62 one day and the very next 82. I'm either very on or very off. This game is so mental!

[BuckeyeNut]

Originally Posted by hjimzaf

Played 18 today with my buddy who plays to a 5 and is LONG, can hit most par 5s in 2. On the 3rd hole we catch up to a single playing from the tips who was whited out from head to toe with the latest TaylorMade gear. R11 driver, woods, staff bag, Tour preferred MBs, etc. He asks if we want to join him and says, "I'm prepping for a tournament tomorrow so I'm playing from the tips." He then proceeds to hook his drive into the woods on his way to double bogey....................................

Just because he's a +HC doesn't mean he doesn't have blow-up rounds too........everybody has them.  My index averages n the 2.'s and I shot an 88 a couple weeks ago.....I'm feeling his pain!!!!!

Hahahaha

[rsamsing]

That's funny as hell.  thanks

[BuckeyeNut]

Originally Posted by Gerald

Well OK, these tour players are very good, but most people are telling us all the time they are a +7 to +10 handicapper, but that is not really the case.

No matter how "easy" the course, even for these guys it is hard to shoot more than let's say 6 birdies in a round and even at shorter courses a par 4 is still a par 4 and if the par 4 is not reachable with a drive, there are no guarantees for making a row of birdies, not even at the average homecourse and the greens at average homecourses will be less predictable, the bunkers can be harder, etc.

Besides that not all tour events are held at those superlong courses, many are (at least in Europe) at the same courses we play from the back tees, and also there come these superstars, but we don't see scores of minus 30 over 72 holes.

Looking at the shorter courses Tour events, the winner is a guy maybe playing -20 in 4 days, but 10th place orso, The best have maybe "only" a +4 or at best a +5 handicap, and of course they can play below at certain days, but that doesn't give them a +9 handicap.

You'd be mistaken sir........the worst players on tour are +4-5 or better.

Keep in mind how HCs are calculated and the astronomically high CR's of the courses they play.  IE.....the 125th ranked player on tour currently averages 71.45 per round according to PGATOUR.com  Keep in mind, this is a guy fighting to keep his card at the bottom of the pecking order!!

http://www.pgatour.com/r/stats/info/xm.html?120

Only his best 10 of 20 scores are used to calculate HC....and they are playing TOUGH COURSES. If you plugged his scores into the GHIN system and considering many of those tourney courses are 76-78CR....he's easily be better than +4.    The top players do approach +9-+10.........

They are THAT GOOD!    A +1.7 is an amateur hack by comparison.................

My 2 cents..... a fun thread to read!!!!!

[BuckeyeNut]

Originally Posted by sean_miller

I've never actually seen someone hit a "duck hook" with an iron. Is that even possible?

Yes...I can show you if you'd like....LOL

[BuckeyeNut]

Originally Posted by The_Pharaoh

Here's the article I mentioned in my post above. OK, yes, I got some of it wrong but read it and weep people! These guys ARE good!!

http://thesandtrap.com/b/the_numbers_game/calculating_the_handicap_indeces_of_the_pros

Nice find!!

Ugggh.......I hate coming to the party late!!!!  I didn't discover this thread until it was already several pages long so I'm catching up....LOL.....I'm just now working my way through and I'm thoroughly enjoying the read

[Stretch]

Originally Posted by bplewis24

Sean, you need to come play with me.  I will show things you've never dreamed of.

I bet you say that to all the dudes with white belts.

[Noonan1]

HAHAHA. good stuff. Tell the guy that his +1.7 from the reds doesnt mean he should be playing the tips

Originally Posted by Tomboys

Didn't you get the memo?  The asylum gives the patients day passes on Fridays.  Sponsored by Allstate, eh?

Maybe you should've told him his grip needs to look like this:

Not like this: