Why have I always been told to work most on my short game?

[mdl]

Quote:

Originally Posted by zeg

That's going to be an awfully tall order: the best pros have a 66% scrambling percentage, the worst about 45% according to PGA Tour stats.  So to get up and down 9 times, you basically have to miss every green unless you've got a far better scrambling % than the pros.  Granted they have tougher greens, but I'd be really surprised if a typical scratch golfer has pro-level scrambling stats, even on "mortal" courses.  I'd think it's more likely that the scratch golfer gets up and down less than half the time and offsets the bogeys with birdies after a GIR.

Good call zeg.  I was stupidly thinking about it without birdies!

I stand by my general point, however, that going from a 20 to a 10-12 has been largely (for me at least) about improving full shots and eliminating weak 3 putts, but now I've started coming to the point where improving scrambling to save pars and accuracy on approach shots of full SW or less (par 5s and short par 4s) to give higher percentage birdie opportunities is starting to feel like a part of the game I really need to improve to start shooting in the 70s consistently instead of in the low to mid 80s consistently.

[iacas]

Originally Posted by McKee

My personal experience proved to me that improving your ball striking and hitting more GIRs can be a result of intense short game practice.  By practicing pitching I learned to make better contact, maintain soft grip pressure, and have better timing and tempo, all of which enabled me to strike the full shots better, swing freely and hit more greens.  It's tough to give a high handicapper a big club and have them "swing smooth" or "relax".  They can develop a great full swing by associating it with a slow, manageable pitch shot.

I disagree... but I define a "pitch" shot as one that uses the bounce, so...

Originally Posted by McKee

It sounds very much like you are saying "this is how it should be done...60% long game, 35% short shots, 5% putting".  Correct?

Do you understand what a generalization is? In general, yes, that's how I'd work on things overall, assuming decent instruction and a player who practices well/properly. Yes. Maybe even more like 75% full swing, 20% short game (inside of 30 yards or so), 5% putting. Because with proper instruction the short game stuff is a lot simpler. It simply doesn't require the same amount of effort. One half the effort is still a LOT of effort for something that's orders of magnitude simpler.

Originally Posted by McKee

Then how can someone make the blanket statement that one part of the game is more important and should be practiced more than another?

I really am not sure that you know what a generalization is... And I'm not repeating that to be mean. A blanket statement is a generalization. It's an overall average. It's not specific to individual golfers.

Originally Posted by McKee

I would go as far to say that a professional golfer leaving a birdie putt short out of fear of a three-putt has just experienced the yips - a form of anxiety which compromises their ability to perform. This epidemic warrants practicing putting more than 5% of the time.

No it doesn't. Also, you're crazy. Yipping is an "epidemic" now? C'mon. You're reaching.

Originally Posted by max power

Because it is more important for the vast majority of golfers-statistically and subjectively from watching other golfers play and practice for 15+ years. No one is saying that short game may not be more important for you or for another particular individual. And there has been nearly unanimous agreement that short game practice/execution becomes more important as a player gets better.

Every aspect of the game does not have the same effect on the final score, fitness included. How can GIRs be increased? By hitting more greens - by definition this occurs with full swings at least 98% of the time. I would never advocate ignoring the short game-my lob wedge absolutely killed me during two rounds this week. But inconsistent wayward tee shots and/or duffed approach shots would have been even worse.

QFT.

Originally Posted by McKee

Look at it this way, why are they all there to begin with?  Because they have exceptional short games. Of course they strike the ball amazingly but so do all the other pros waiting in the wings for an opportunity to play in the big show.  The only difference is the guys who don't qualify are mediocre putters and chippers.  No stats to support this just good old fashioned experience and intuition.

Unfortunately, your intuition is wrong. The PGA Tour players have better long games than their peers on the Nationwide Tour.

Why are players on the PGA Tour? Because they're great ball strikers. Maybe if I type this in bold it'll sink in: in general, GIR is the single biggest determinant of your score . You hit greens with your full swing. You don't hit greens by practicing your ten-foot putts or your bunker shots.

[McKee]

iacas,

Wow, you called me crazy.  I did not expect you to go there.

It seemed like you were taking a stand but now it looks like your generalization is a cop-out.

[NM Golf]

Originally Posted by McKee

iacas,

Wow, you called me crazy.  I did not expect you to go there.

It seemed like you were taking a stand but now it looks like your generalization is a cop-out.

While Erik and I have not always seen eye to eye on this forum , I do have respect for the fact that he is about as golf saavy a person as I know. As I have read this thread I agree with what he says completely.

If you break down my practicing time to outside say 40 yards being full swing I easily spend the majority of my time on long game, always have.

[x129]

The PGA guys are all great ball strikers. They are also all great short game guys and are great putters.  And they are really good at hitting greens with 3/4 wedge shots

Quote:

QFT.

Unfortunately, your intuition is wrong. The PGA Tour players have better long games than their peers on the Nationwide Tour.

Why are players on the PGA Tour? Because they're great ball strikers. Maybe if I type this in bold it'll sink in: in general, GIR is the single biggest determinant of your score. You hit greens with your full swing. You don't hit greens by practicing your ten-foot putts or your bunker shots.

[McKee]

Quote:

Unfortunately, your intuition is wrong. The PGA Tour players have better long games than their peers on the Nationwide Tour.

Why are players on the PGA Tour? Because they're great ball strikers. Maybe if I type this in bold it'll sink in: in general, GIR is the single biggest determinant of your score . You hit greens with your full swing. You don't hit greens by practicing your ten-foot putts or your bunker shots.

I want to try bold...

If you practice your ten-foot putts and your bunker shots you will hit more greens because you will not be afraid to make bogey or worse if you miss the green.

If fear wasn't one of the most significant factors in weakening a golfers ability to perform than there wouldn't be a small library of golf psychology books out there.

[McKee]

Originally Posted by iacas

No it doesn't. Also, you're crazy. Yipping is an "epidemic" now? C'mon. You're reaching.

The general definition of yips is "the apparent loss of certain fine motor skills seemingly without explanation in one of a number of different sports".  In golf it is mostly associated with putting and I assume you are imagining the yips as a spastic tremor in the hands during a short putt.  The yips has many different definitions - I clearly defined it as "a form of anxiety (or fear) which compromises their (golfers) ability to perform". Every golfer has anxiety and every golfer is physically affected by it .  Yes, it is an epidemic.

[max power]

You're crazy.

Originally Posted by McKee

I want to try bold...

If you practice your ten-foot putts and your bunker shots you will hit more greens because you will not be afraid to make bogey or worse if you miss the green.

If fear wasn't one of the most significant factors in weakening a golfers ability to perform than there wouldn't be a small library of golf psychology books out there.

Originally Posted by McKee

The general definition of yips is "the apparent loss of certain fine motor skills seemingly without explanation in one of a number of different sports".  In golf it is mostly associated with putting and I assume you are imagining the yips as a spastic tremor in the hands during a short putt.  The yips has many different definitions - I clearly defined it as "a form of anxiety (or fear) which compromises their (golfers) ability to perform".  Every golfer has anxiety and every golfer is physically affected by it.  Yes, it is an epidemic.

[Leftygolfer]

The only thing I disagree with Erik is putting.  I think this should be practiced much more than chipping and pitching.  I believe the best for someone who already knows how to play shortgame shots well is to practice putting at least as long or longer than anything around the green.  Unless your insanely good at chipping/pitching, 5 feet is a pretty good shot.  You got to be able to make those.  It makes putting easier when you hit greens, it makes a tough up and in feel not so tough.  If you know your going to make almost every 3 or 4 footer it takes the pressure off being perfect with speed.  I believe the only way to have truely great speed on the greens is to play a whole bunch.  Most can't do that  b/c of other life activities.  But if your a great short putter it really doesn't matter if your speed is a little off a couple of times.

For me, I'm a super inconsistant 11 but with a solid short game and putting.  I think optimal for me is 75% (I include 60-80 yards into this or anything I'm on the driving range hitting), 15% putting. 10% short game.  If I have to skip one, its short game, and then putting.  If I have less than 2 hours, I just hit balls.  I hit alot of half shots to work on timing and tempo.  I need to have the same tempo in my long game that I do in my short game shots so thats my focus.  But this is me.

I believe what you should work on is your weakest aspect.  If you can hit it consistantly, but waste strokes around the green, focus on short game.

If you aren't even in position to make pars b/c of your long game (me) work on the full swing.

Being good is being able to adapt to how your hitting it.  Some days, the best players don't hit a ton of greens but still find a way to get around par or at least low 70s.  Other days they hit a ton of greens and strike it well.  But I'd say if you can really hit the ball consistantly, good chance your short game is at least decent.  It all is related and the full swing is the hardest.

[iacas]

Originally Posted by McKee

If you practice your ten-foot putts and your bunker shots you will hit more greens because you will not be afraid to make bogey or worse if you miss the green.

Uhhhh.... my response is this:

Originally Posted by max power

You're crazy.

Seriously.

[ochmude]

Originally Posted by McKee

I want to try bold...

If you practice your ten-foot putts and your bunker shots you will hit more greens because you will not be afraid to make bogey or worse if you miss the green.

If fear wasn't one of the most significant factors in weakening a golfers ability to perform than there wouldn't be a small library of golf psychology books out there.

That certainly is an interesting theory, but I'm really not sure which particular group of golfers it would apply to.  I personally have no fear of long putts or greenside bunker shots, not whatsoever, so I don't think those fears are causing me to miss greens.  I currently average 11.1% GIR, and only 38.1% GIR+1.  If I could consistently end up in greenside bunkers then my GIR+1 percentage could easily get up in the 80's.  Beyond that, I'm certainly not afraid of making bogies.  9 bogies and 9 doubles means I just broke 100 and shot my best round of the year.  Yup, I'm really afraid of doing that.

[The Recreational Golfer]

Originally Posted by iacas

Why are players on the PGA Tour? Because they're great ball strikers. Maybe if I type this in bold it'll sink in: in general, GIR is the single biggest determinant of your score. You hit greens with your full swing. You don't hit greens by practicing your ten-foot putts or your bunker shots.

The boldfaced statement is testable. I got current data from the PGA Tour web site for 188 players on GIR and scoring average, and ran a correlation. The correlation coefficient is -0.00039. This means there is NO relationship between GIR and scoring in this data set. NONE. Another way of saying it is, if you want to explain a player's scoring average, GIR contributes nothing to the explanation.

[x129]

To be clear, you should say "to explain a PGA player scoring", GIR isn't important.  The PGA guys are all in a  pretty narrow range of ability (something like +4 to +8). The top guys will be just over 70% (~12.5 greens)   GIR and the bottom guys are down at 60% (~11).

Originally Posted by The Recreational Golfer

The boldfaced statement is testable. I got current data from the PGA Tour web site for 188 players on GIR and scoring average, and ran a correlation. The correlation coefficient is -0.00039. This means there is NO relationship between GIR and scoring in this data set. NONE. Another way of saying it is, if you want to explain a player's scoring average, GIR contributes nothing to the explanation.

[McKee]

Originally Posted by ochmude

That certainly is an interesting theory, but I'm really not sure which particular group of golfers it would apply to.  I personally have no fear of long putts or greenside bunker shots, not whatsoever, so I don't think those fears are causing me to miss greens.  I currently average 11.1% GIR, and only 38.1% GIR+1.  If I could consistently end up in greenside bunkers then my GIR+1 percentage could easily get up in the 80's.  Beyond that, I'm certainly not afraid of making bogies.  9 bogies and 9 doubles means I just broke 100 and shot my best round of the year.  Yup, I'm really afraid of doing that.

Exactly what I am saying.  If you are comfortable with your short game, through ample practice, then you will not be afraid to miss greens.  Not being afraid to miss greens comes in very handy when trying to hit them.

Crazy is a bit extreme guys.  Just theories.  I am not talking about using "the force" or anything.  Geez.

[ochmude]

Originally Posted by McKee

Exactly what I am saying.  If you are comfortable with your short game, through ample practice, then you will not be afraid to miss greens.  Not being afraid to miss greens comes in very handy when trying to hit them.

Crazy is a bit extreme guys.  Just theories.  I am not talking about using "the force" or anything.  Geez.

You lost me.  Okay, just to make sure I'm understanding you, you're saying that if I'm not afraid to miss greens I'll hit them more often.  Is that correct?

[sean_miller]

Originally Posted by ochmude

You lost me.  Okay, just to make sure I'm understanding you, you're saying that if I'm not afraid to miss greens I'll hit them more often.  Is that correct?

I think that's exactly what he's saying.

This could play a role in going for par 5s in two and going for long par 4s after a less than stellar drive. You'd be more likely to attempt the shot because a miss wouldn't be as penal. It could also get a player to fire at the pin rather than settle for the fat of the green. I can't say there'd be too much of an effect on GIR stats, but I think scoring would improve. The PGA stats have been referenced a few times and they seems quite relevant. The guys with the highest GIR stats aren't necessarily anywhere near the top of the leaderboard. they need to hit the right part of the green and make the putts.

The GIR isn't the whole story for the professionals by any means. For hackers like us though, a GIR means you have a look at birdie. Not necessarily a good lock, but you should have a really good look at a par. A missed GIR could still be a par, but it's probably not going to be a birdie very often. A decent player can shoot the same score whether they're hitting greens or missing them in good places, but eventually I think a guy with a higher (not fractionally - like 20% higher) is going to score better. On the other hand, a 3-putt is harder on the nerves than a missed up and down chance.

[ND Fan]

My up and down average for the last four years went like this 59%, 64%,68%, 73% so far this year.  Short game is getting better and it's worth practicing.

Scramble stats includes any green not hit in reg.  I just keep track of within 50 yards up and down.  Hitting a ball into the water and then hitting the green not in reg does not relate to my short game.

[Deryck Griffith]

Originally Posted by McKee

Exactly what I am saying.  If you are comfortable with your short game, through ample practice, then you will not be afraid to miss greens.  Not being afraid to miss greens comes in very handy when trying to hit them.

Crazy is a bit extreme guys.  Just theories.  I am not talking about using "the force" or anything.  Geez.

What? I became less afraid to miss greens after my full swing beccame more reliable on every shot.  When I first started, I would stand over the ball and worry beause I had no idea where it was going.  Today, I know where it's going and can control it.  No way in hell would've better chipping or pitching improved my "fear" as they aren't full swings.

You don't play to miss the green, you play to hit it.