All-Time Top 15 Players

[JoelCochran]

I think it's an incredibly hard question to answer because of that variances between the different generations.  Specifically, the equipment and quality of competition.  That being said, I think there are three golfers worthy of competition for the top slot.  Here are my thoughts, but I can't really rank them, it's too close to call.

1) Jack - I think inevitably Jack is the greatest overall player ever.  No one, not even Tiger, could beat him in the mental game.  Not only did Jack think he should win every tournament he entered, he thought he deserved to win them all because he was the best.  He probably willed himself to win more than anyone else.

People today marvel at the distance the pros hit (and rightfully so), but if they played with the same equipment Jack did they wouldn't be anywhere close.  When Jack started professionally Arnie was just reaching his prime and winning everything in sight.  He was recognized (and considered himself) as the longest hitter, but Jack just blew his distance out of the water.  There is a great story about one of the British opens where Jack drove a 376 yard par 4 into the wind.  In the immortal words of Bobby Jones, no slouch in the distance department himself, "He plays a game with which I am unfamiliar".  I would love to see what Jack could do in his prime if he had today's technology.

Jack won 18 professional majors, but just as impressive is the fact that he finished 2nd in 19 other majors.  Even when he wasn't at his best, Jack was always there, in contention.  I think he inspired more great golfers, who he ultimately had to compete against in the latter part of his career, than any other golfer before him.  People loved Arnie but they wanted to BE Jack.

2) Hogan - My personal favorite.  No one accomplished so much in the face of so much adversity.  It's really too bad Nelson retired just as Hogan was finding his game, that would have been a great matchup.  They played each other may times, but Nelson was the better player at the time (a fact that bothered Hogan to no end), and then quit at the top of his game.  Perhaps some of Hogan's success came as a result of having the pathway cleared although he still had to beat the likes of Snead and Jimmy Demaret.

Of course, his greatest successes came after his famed car accident.  The doctors said he would never walk again, let alone play golf, but he proved them all wrong.  He never played golf without pain again, sometimes barely being able to walk 18 holes.  Still, in 1953 he absolutely dominated golf.  He won the Masters, U.S. Open, and British in a calendar year. (Also the only time he ever played in the British Open).  At the time, the British and PGA were scheduled opposite each other or he would have had a real chance to win the modern Grand Slam.

I love the stories of Hogan and practice.  He would practice in the dark and his caddie would go shag balls, finding them all in a tight little grouping exactly where Hogan said they were.  After winning a tournament in 1948 by something like 6 shots, Jimmy Demaret found him practicing by the headlights of his car while everyone else was at the bar.  He stopped and asked him what he was doing, and Hogan's reply was "Jimmy, there's no reason I can't birdie every hole."

His 1 iron at Merion in 51 is the stuff of legends, the most iconic image of golf in the golden age.   The biggest long term problem associated with the accident was his vision.  He had a damaged nerve that affected his left eye, and as he got older he couldn't see the ball or the hole when he was lined up over a putt.  This is what led to his yips and cost him many tournaments even though he could still hit the ball exactly where he wanted.  If he could have made putts, I think he would have still been winning into the mid-60s.   If it hadn't been for the accident Hogan would have won at least twice as many majors as he did.

3) Tiger - Certainly the most impressive physical specimen ever to play the game.  Tiger could have been a star at any sport.  His achievements are absolutely remarkable, especially considering the level of competition he has.  I also think his prime is past because of the competition.  Kids starting now, like McIlroy have been watching Tiger since they were kids (makes me feel old) and dreaming of beating him. Equipment is better, training is better, conditioning is better.  I'm sure Tiger will win again, but he'll never dominate again.

I contend that his winning the U.S. Open on a broken leg is the greatest achievement in sport history.  Yes, many pros have played hurt, but walking 18 holes for 5 days (including the playoff) and knowing that every swing was going to practically floor him with pain is the most courageous and determined effort ever.  It also may have been the stupidest, but only time will tell.

I won't rehash Tiger's achievements, I'm sure most readers are intimately familiar, save one: along with Jack, Tiger is the only person to win the Career Slam three times over.  In terms of sheer ability, Tiger is the best physical golfer of all time.  I think he's a (very close) 2nd to Jack in terms of the mental game.

The Rest - in my book everyone else is competing for the rest of the slots, and there are too many variables and inconsistencies to adequately rank the remainder.  Any list would have to include Bobby Jones and Tom Watson, but I'm pretty flexible on the rest.

:-)

[carrx]

Originally Posted by JoelCochran

1) Jack - I think inevitably Jack is the greatest overall player ever.  No one, not even Tiger, could beat him in the mental game.  Not only did Jack think he should win every tournament he entered, he thought he deserved to win them all because he was the best.  He probably willed himself to win more than anyone else.

2) Hogan - My personal favorite.  No one accomplished so much in the face of so much adversity.  It's really too bad Nelson retired just as Hogan was finding his game, that would have been a great matchup.  They played each other may times, but Nelson was the better player at the time (a fact that bothered Hogan to no end), and then quit at the top of his game.  Perhaps some of Hogan's success came as a result of having the pathway cleared although he still had to beat the likes of Snead and Jimmy Demaret.

3) Tiger - Certainly the most impressive physical specimen ever to play the game.  Tiger could have been a star at any sport.  His achievements are absolutely remarkable, especially considering the level of competition he has.  I also think his prime is past because of the competition.  Kids starting now, like McIlroy have been watching Tiger since they were kids (makes me feel old) and dreaming of beating him. Equipment is better, training is better, conditioning is better.  I'm sure Tiger will win again, but he'll never dominate again.

With all due respect, to suggest that Tiger Woods could star in any sport he played is plain silly. He's never demonstrated capability in any sport other than golf.  What's his vertical leap?  What's his 40 time?  Can he hit a curveball?  We're not talking about Bo Jackson, or Michael Jordan, or even a Babe Zaharias.

[bplewis24]

Originally Posted by carrx

With all due respect, to suggest that Tiger Woods could star in any sport he played is plain silly. He's never demonstrated capability in any sport other than golf.  What's his vertical leap?  What's his 40 time?  Can he hit a curveball?  We're not talking about Bo Jackson, or Michael Jordan, or even a Babe Zaharias.

Maybe he meant star at the lower levels and not professionally?

Brandon

[jamo]

With all due respect, to suggest that Tiger Woods could star in any sport he played is plain silly. He's never demonstrated capability in any sport other than golf.  What's his vertical leap?  What's his 40 time?  Can he hit a curveball?  We're not talking about Bo Jackson, or Michael Jordan, or even a Babe Zaharias.

Apparently he was a pretty good track runner in high school. Just by looking at him, he's extremely thin and obviously has the work ethic to be a runner. And he has the hand-eye coordination to be good at most sports, if he had taken them up at a young-enough age.

[max power]

Yeah-but he has the personality and public speaking/demeanor of someone who is only good at one sport.  Definitely unscientific, but I'd wager Tiger was meant for golf and nothing else.

Originally Posted by jamo

Apparently he was a pretty good track runner in high school. Just by looking at him, he's extremely thin and obviously has the work ethic to be a runner. And he has the hand-eye coordination to be good at most sports, if he had taken them up at a young-enough age.

[JoelCochran]

Originally Posted by carrx

With all due respect, to suggest that Tiger Woods could star in any sport he played is plain silly. He's never demonstrated capability in any sport other than golf.  What's his vertical leap?  What's his 40 time?  Can he hit a curveball?  We're not talking about Bo Jackson, or Michael Jordan, or even a Babe Zaharias.

I didn't say he "could star in any sport", I said he "could have been a star in any sport".  By the same token, Bo Jackson and Michael Jordan could also have been stars in any sport.  In my opinion, if Earl Woods would have pushed him towards basketball or football as early and as hard as he pushed him towards golf, Tiger would have been a superstar in that sport.  It could have been Baseball, Tennis, or Skiing (or Curling for that matter).  That's all I was trying to say, not that he is currently good at every sport.  I think Tiger was meant to be an athlete.  His entire physical makeup and his eye hand coordination were seemingly bio-engineered for sports.

[allin]

I think determing the best when you assume modern golfers are superior when playing under different conditons with different equpment without considering what golfers from other eras playing with modern conditions and training would do is unfair. So I do not compare Walter Hagen directly to Tiger Woods, but in context of their time. I considered who was the best player and impact. I do not compare women directly to men but in context of their competion. Players who played only in Europe or only in the USA were discounted. This means that more women are represented and some golfers are on one list but not the other, notably Babe Zaharis and Greg Norman. Billy Casper and Gene Sarazen were tough omissions, also Gary Player on the best list, since their records are superior to some on the list. But numbers and wins like all statistics do not always reflect the truth of a players relative skills. Longevity or pure persistance can raise a players rank even though head to head it is clear the player with fewer wins is the better player. Both Sam Snead and Player are tough calls because of this. BEST IMPACT Jack Nicklaus Arnold Palmer Tiger Woods Jack Nicklaus Ben Hogan Tiger Woods Bobby Jones Bobby Jones Kathy Whitworth Gary Player Walther Hagen Babe Zaharis Harry Vardon Harry Vardon Arnold Palmer Ben Hogan Sam Snead Nancy Lopez Annika Sorenstam Old Tom Morris Seve Ballesteros Seve Ballesteros Byron Nelson Byron Nelson Tom Watson Patty Berg Lee Trevfino Lee Trevino Nick Faldo Greg Norman

[lefty16]

In my generation of watching golf you are either a Phil or Tiger fan. In my dads generation of watching golf it was either Jack or Arnie. What some people dont realize about Phil or Arnie is without them golf would of been really boring to watch during those periods of time. How fun would it have been to watch Jack and Tiger win week after week. What Phil and Arnie did was create compeition. And i can guarntee if they both played during diffrent times they could have been the jack and tigers of their time. This is something people forgot and how good phil and arnie actually were

[Long Ball Larry]

Originally Posted by lefty16

In my generation of watching golf you are either a Phil or Tiger fan. In my dads generation of watching golf it was either Jack or Arnie. What some people dont realize about Phil or Arnie is without them golf would of been really boring to watch during those periods of time. How fun would it have been to watch Jack and Tiger win week after week. What Phil and Arnie did was create compeition. And i can guarntee if they both played during diffrent times they could have been the jack and tigers of their time. This is something people forgot and how good phil and arnie actually were

I agree with this, although I now find myself rooting for Tiger when Phil is not in contention. Granted, Phil is my favorite player, so I'll try not to sound like a homer, but I think he gets a bad rep. He has the most majors and PGA Tour wins of any active player not named Tiger, but so many people focus on the fact that he's never been the top-ranked player. Who cares? I still think he snags a couple more majors, gets to 50 wins (hopefully), and goes down as one of the top 10 golfers ever. He's had a career pretty much everyone would envy (even if he retired today). Sure, there's zero chance he matches Tiger's career accomplishments, but I also think there's zero chance that Donald or Westwood (two guys who did get to number one) match Phil's career accomplishments.

[dr shankalot]

1. Jack Niclaus

2. Tiger Woods

3. Bobby Jones

4. Byron Nelson

5. Sam Snead

6. Walter Hagen

7. Gary Player

8. Seve Ballesteros

9. Ben Hogan

10. Tom Watson

11. Gene Sarazen

12. Arnold Palmer

13. Nick Faldo

14. Harry Vardon

15. Lee Trevino

If it was based purely on talent then maybe John Daly should be in there as well?

[carrx]

Fair or not, I think Phil suffers historically because of the perception that he has underachieved relative to his talents.  I'm not a huge Phil fan, but do appreciate how good he can be (is).  I have really enjoyed this thread, and wonder how the comparisons might change if we're ranking players based solely on the condition of their play at a specific time in their careers, rather than rating them based on their career achievements overall.

For example, where does Tiger Woods 2000 rank vs. Byron Nelson 1945?  What about Jack Nicklaus 1972 vs. Ben Hogan 1953?

Just a thought.

Originally Posted by Long Ball Larry

I agree with this, although I now find myself rooting for Tiger when Phil is not in contention. Granted, Phil is my favorite player, so I'll try not to sound like a homer, but I think he gets a bad rep. He has the most majors and PGA Tour wins of any active player not named Tiger, but so many people focus on the fact that he's never been the top-ranked player. Who cares? I still think he snags a couple more majors, gets to 50 wins (hopefully), and goes down as one of the top 10 golfers ever. He's had a career pretty much everyone would envy (even if he retired today). Sure, there's zero chance he matches Tiger's career accomplishments, but I also think there's zero chance that Donald or Westwood (two guys who did get to number one) match Phil's career accomplishments.

[Long Ball Larry]

Originally Posted by carrx

Fair or not, I think Phil suffers historically because of the perception that he has underachieved relative to his talents.  I'm not a huge Phil fan, but do appreciate how good he can be (is).  I have really enjoyed this thread, and wonder how the comparisons might change if we're ranking players based solely on the condition of their play at a specific time in their careers, rather than rating them based on their career achievements overall.

For example, where does Tiger Woods 2000 rank vs. Byron Nelson 1945?  What about Jack Nicklaus 1972 vs. Ben Hogan 1953?

Just a thought.

How many more majors/wins, or what does he have to do, to shed the "underachiever" label? Career Grand Slam?

Tiger during his Tiger Slam is hard to top.

[bplewis24]

Originally Posted by Long Ball Larry

How many more majors/wins, or what does he have to do, to shed the "underachiever" label? Career Grand Slam?

Tiger during his Tiger Slam is hard to top.

Honestly I think if he got to 7-8 majors, people would forget about the "underachievement" earlier in his career.

Brandon

[Ben]

That video is obviously meant to be funny, and it is. Although the pics aren't necessarily bad. I found it quite amusing in the order the players were put. No Hogan or Watson either, which makes it the more silly.

Originally Posted by Stretch

Let's not forget a guy who was (arguably) kicked off the PGA tour for being too good. Bobby Locke played 59 tournaments in America over two years or so, winning 11 and finishing in the top three 30 times! Still holds the record for the largest margin of victory -- 16 shots in the 1948 Chicago Victory National Championship. It is said that the US pros quickly got tired of a foreigner raiding their prize money like that and he was banned in 1949, on the fairly flimsy pretext that he chose to play preseason events in Europe instead. He ended up winning four British Opens, 23 European titles and 38 South African tour trophies before a bad car accident ended his career. May well have been the best putter ever. Sam Snead claimed he never once three-putted during their highly touted matchplay exhibition series in the late 40s, which Locke won 12 to 2, and later said his own famous case of the yips very likely got its start there: "In some of the matches, my ball was inside his from tee to green on 15 holes. But he just dropped 30 and 40 footers without even thinking twice. He made me so nervous that in one match I missed eight putts of less than two feet."

That's cool! I gotta find out more about this guy.

[Ben]

I don't see Vijay on anyone's list. What he did after turning the age of 40 is pretty remarkable! Whether that grants him a spot in the top 15 is another story, but his accomplishments can't be overlooked.

[max power]

He was #15 on my original list until the absence of Bobby Locke was pointed out.  Vijay would still crack the top 20 for me.

Originally Posted by Ben

I don't see Vijay on anyone's list. What he did after turning the age of 40 is pretty remarkable! Whether that grants him a spot in the top 15 is another story, but his accomplishments can't be overlooked.

[turtleback]

I had Vijay in mine.  His 2004 performance is easily among the top 10 years anyone has had in golf.

[Ben]

I never put a list together. In no particular order, besides the first.

Ben Hogan

Arnold Palmer

Jack Nicklaus

Gary Player

Byron Nelson

Tiger

Fred Couples

Tom Watson

Nick Faldo

Ernie Els

Annika

Phil Mickelson

Seve

Bobby Jones

Vijay Singh