Club Declared "Out of Play" Prior to Start of Round

[iacas]

A friend of mine bet me that you could declare a club "out of play" before the start of a round if you have 15 clubs in your bag. I told him that was not possible, and a quick search of the Rules revealed Decision 4-4c/1 (regarding rule 4-4 and 4-4c in particular).

Here is Decision 4-4c/1:

4-4c/1  Excess Club Declared Out of Play Before Round and Placed on Floor of Golf Cart

Q. Before the start of a round, a player discovers that there are 15 clubs in his golf bag. He declares one of the clubs out of play, removes it from his bag, places it on the floor of his golf cart and begins the round. Is the player subject to penalty?

A. Yes, for starting the round with more than 14 clubs. Rule 4-4c has to do with declaring an excess club out of play on discovery of a breach after a round has started. There is nothing in the Rules to permit carrying, during a round, an excess club declared out of play before the round.

Now, his contention is that the wording is bizarre, despite the fact that the question exactly asks his question, and then says "yes," the player is subject to penalty. The answer also says "There is nothing in the Rules to permit carrying, during a round, an excess club declared out of play before the round."

This friend is confused by the fact that the question (and answer) says "before the start of the round" and then says "for starting the round with more than 14 clubs".

I told him that the Rules of Golf really don't stipulate what you can or can't do (except, basically, regarding practicing on the course) two minutes, two hours, two days, or two weeks before the "round" has begun. You can say "I declare all of my clubs out of play" (or one club out of 15) before the round starts, but the Rules of Golf don't really "start" until the golf "starts," so your "declarations" are irrelevant. And thus, as soon as the Rules kick in, and you hit your tee shot, you've "started the round" with more than 14 clubs.

That's my contention. What sayest others?

P.S. My friend is citing "R&A; Rules" but I'm virtually certain that they're exactly the same, and that this would not be allowed in England either.

[Shorty]

I would venture to say that if someone is  playing in a cart, putting it on the floor of the cart is the same as putting it in his bag, because the cart qualifies as "equipment".

When people "declare" this and "declare" that  it gives their statement a quasi-official sound, doesn't it, and most players are hesitant to argue with them unless they really know the rules.

Bottom line: you can't carry 15 clubs. I can see where he sees the contradiction, but he can't carry it with him.

But....if, before a round started, if someone was a long way from the clubhouse/car/a safe place, and they said "Oh shit, I've got 15 clubs here" you could work something out where it was "out of play" but wasn't going to get lost by leaning it against a tree for 5 hours or whatever.

It would be out of line to insist that he left it on the ground somewhere, so, unless it was a high level competition, I'd let it slide if it was known before the round started. - but if it was me I'd be putting a 3 wood cover on it or something and making a point about letting others know I'd done that.

[iacas]

Originally Posted by Shorty

Bottom line: you can't carry 15 clubs. I can see where he sees the contradiction, but he can't carry it with him.

I agree that's how it's written. And I can kind of see his point in that the definition seems to be contradictory, but I think the "rules don't care about declarations made before a round" squashes that one.

Originally Posted by Shorty

But....if, before a round started, if someone was a long way from the clubhouse/car/a safe place, and they said "Oh shit, I've got 15 clubs here" you could work something out where it was "out of play" but wasn't going to get lost by leaning it against a tree for 5 hours or whatever.

It would be out of line to insist that he left it on the ground somewhere, so, unless it was a high level competition, I'd let it slide if it was known before the round started.

Oh, I agree with that too. That's not really the topic per se - the topic is more the legitimate interpretation of the Rules. I couldn't care less what someone else does and though I tend to play by the Rules, I wouldn't care if someone said "oh, crap, I have two 3Ws. Fellas, this one's out of play" and didn't hit it.

[Fourputt]

I even asked the USGA instructor in my last rules workshop if the player could remove the extra club from his bag and toss it in a bush behind the teeing area, then after playing his first stroke, retrieve the club as if "found".  The instructor said that would still be a penalty under the same decision because the player is essentially trying to circumvent the decision and the rule.  The excess club must be dealt with properly (i.e. handed to a spectator who is not your caddy to carry, returned to the locker room, put in his car, etc.).  Such a club must not be in the possession of the player for the remainder of the round unless he breaks or damages one of his original 14 and uses the club in question to replace it.  It does not have the status of a club truly found on the course.

One more comment:  I think that Iacas has a point too about the declaration made prior to your first stroke.  Such a statement has no status under the rules because the rules are not in effect until the start of the stipulated round.  The rules assume that since the round hasn't yet begun, the player should have had ample opportunity to relieve himself of the extra club.  Once the first stroke is made, then the out of play declaration is valid, but a penalty has also been incurred.

Another issue is that the 14 club rule has 2 very different penalties associated with it.  If the club is carried but not used the player only receives stroke or loss of hole penalties.  If the club is used, he is disqualified.  So the declaration process is important in determining which is the extra club and what penalty is actually incurred.  If he had somehow already used the club he wished to declare out of play, he would not be able to do so because he would be disqualifying himself.  He would have to declare a different club out of play which he had not yet made a stroke with, whether it's one he might wish to use later or not.

[TourSpoon]

Originally Posted by iacas

I wouldn't care if someone said "oh, crap, I have two 3Ws. Fellas, this one's out of play" and didn't hit it.

I don't have a problem with this during a casual round. If it was a tournament, I would tell the guy to leave it with the bag room guy to be legal.

[iacas]

Originally Posted by Fourputt

One more comment:  I think that Iacas has a point too about the declaration made prior to your first stroke.  Such a statement has no status under the rules because the rules are not in effect until the start of the stipulated round.  The rules assume that since the round hasn't yet begun, the player should have had ample opportunity to relieve himself of the extra club.  Once the first stroke is made, then the out of play declaration is valid, but a penalty has also been incurred.

Another issue is that the 14 club rule has 2 very different penalties associated with it.  If the club is carried but not used the player only receives stroke or loss of hole penalties.  If the club is used, he is disqualified.  So the declaration process is important in determining which is the extra club and what penalty is actually incurred.  If he had somehow already used the club he wished to declare out of play, he would not be able to do so because he would be disqualifying himself.  He would have to declare a different club out of play which he had not yet made a stroke with, whether it's one he might wish to use later or not.

Two good additions. I'm glad you agree with my assessment of the language (your first paragraph).

[michaeljames92]

Rule is pretty straightforward. Says you can't carry 15 clubs. i.e. Iacas is right.

[jshots]

First of all, are the rules really only applying once your ball is in play? On the first teebox you must certainly play your ball from the teeing ground and follow any rules that apply, even though your ball is not yet in play. What is actually the "start" of the round?

I always thought that a ball on the teeing ground was not yet considered in play, please correct me if this is wrong. This to me means that the rules are applying before you are considered to be playing the first hole of golf which IMO means your friend is right.

So for the sake of argument lets assume rules can apply before the ball is in play. Are you allowed to declare a club "out of play" at this point and what does it mean if anything? Well you are allowed to do it during a round but you must take a penalty, which I think its safe to assume the penalty is assessed because you are gaining an unfair advantage during that time period. If you have not yet played the ball than you have certainly not gained an unfair advantage yet, and should be able to declare a club out of play.

The rule if you ask me actually allows you to do this. If you discover that in your bag you have more than 14 clubs, you must declare the club out of play and cannot use it for the rest of the stipulated round and are assessed a penalty which is as follows.

Match play - At the conclusion of the hole at which the breach is discovered, the state of the match is adjusted by deducting one hole for each hole at which a breach occurred; maximum deduction per round: Two holes.

Stroke play - Two strokes for each hole at which any breach occurred; maximum penalty per round: Four strokes.

This all depends on our definition of the start of the round. But if it as I stated in the first paragraph and rules can apply before the start of the first hole then you are assessed no penalty when you discover and declare a club out of play before the first hole because you have played 0 holes.

[iacas]

Originally Posted by jshots

First of all, are the rules really only applying once your ball is in play? On the first teebox you must certainly play your ball from the teeing ground and follow any rules that apply, even though your ball is not yet in play. What is actually the "start" of the round?

When you make a stroke at the ball.

If you make a stroke at the ball in front of the tee markers, you've violated the rules. You can't be penalized at any point for PUTTING the tee in the ground or even addressing a ball in front of the tee markers, so that rule is consistent. You make a stroke at the ball. The round has begun, and you're in violation.

Originally Posted by jshots

I always thought that a ball on the teeing ground was not yet considered in play, please correct me if this is wrong. This to me means that the rules are applying before you are considered to be playing the first hole of golf which IMO means your friend is right.

That doesn't make any sense, and here's why.

Guys are standing around waiting to tee off. Player says "That left-handed club, my 15th, I'm declaring it out of play." Doesn't matter - rules haven't begun, round hasn't started. Finally they tee it up. One of the fellow competitors hits a ball. Player says "That left-handed club, my 15th, I'm declaring it out of play." Doesn't matter - the player hasn't begun his round (he still has time to give the club to someone to put in the pro shop, his car, his locker, the trash can, etc.). Player tees the ball and, during his backswing, says "That left-handed club, my 15th, I'm declaring it out of play." Doesn't matter - player hasn't made a stroke at the ball. He swings down with the intent to hit the ball, and BAM, he's penalized at that moment, essentially. Now he MUST declare a club (he could change his mind of course, since none of the previous utterances mattered) out of play and he's effectively lying three.

What you do or say before the round is irrelevant in this capacity.

How is my friend right? You're standing on the tee, and you have 15 clubs. It's irrelevant because your round hasn't started, as is you saying anything about it. If you have 15 clubs during your round, though, you're penalized, and as soon as you tee off, that 15th club matters.

Originally Posted by jshots

So for the sake of argument lets assume rules can apply before the ball is in play. Are you allowed to declare a club "out of play" at this point and what does it mean if anything? Well you are allowed to do it during a round but you must take a penalty, which I think its safe to assume the penalty is assessed because you are gaining an unfair advantage during that time period. If you have not yet played the ball than you have certainly not gained an unfair advantage yet, and should be able to declare a club out of play.

Why "should" you? The Rules of Golf say otherwise. The Rules regarding clubs don't apply before the ball is in play. If that were true, someone could say "oh, I declared that out of play four hours ago." Or four days ago. Or four weeks ago. They're all before play has started.

Better to have a clear line: during the round. Once the round has started.

Originally Posted by jshots

The rule if you ask me actually allows you to do this. If you discover that in your bag you have more than 14 clubs, you must declare the club out of play and cannot use it for the rest of the stipulated round and are assessed a penalty which is as follows.

This all depends on our definition of the start of the round. But if it as I stated in the first paragraph and rules can apply before the start of the first hole then you are assessed no penalty when you discover and declare a club out of play before the first hole because you have played 0 holes.

The Rules don't allow you to do this. The definitions are fairly clear. Look up "Stipulated Round" and "Ball in Play" among a few others.

I could walk to the first tee with 30 clubs, assess the wind, feel how firm the tees are, and throw out 16 of them. That'd be legal.

If you have time to make a declaration, you have time to correct the situation.

[sean_miller]

A club take out of play before a round and placed in a power cart is the extra club in which player's bag? The driver of the cart? The person who's bag the club is closest to? The person who owns the club? Maybe there could be a glass case on the cart to hold clubs not in play, only to be used in case of broken clubs.

If it was a casual round or even a league round, I'd probably say, "no problem, just don't use it." In the Club Championship someone would probably make a fuss about it.

Regarding throwing the club somewhere on the course then declaring it a found club:  well that's just plain ridiculous.

[jshots]

Originally Posted by iacas

Why "should" you? The Rules of Golf say otherwise. The Rules regarding clubs don't apply before the ball is in play. If that were true, someone could say "oh, I declared that out of play four hours ago." Or four days ago. Or four weeks ago. They're all before play has started.

Better to have a clear line: during the round. Once the round has started.

It's not exactly the same, but what would you say about declaring what ball you are playing before the start of a round. Couldn't this be done in the same manner. If it is in the presence of everyone who you are playing with. Of course it doesn't make sense to say you declared a play out of play 4 weeks ago when the rest of your group doesn't know that. And a ball is in play when a stroke has been made, yes of course, but I still believe the rules apply before then, please point me to something that says these rules ONLY apply once the first stroke has been made.

Another question for you... how would you think the rules would apply if the extra club was discovered in between holes, lets say between 1 and 2? Would you take the penalty as 2 strokes because you have only played hole 1 or would you have been considered having that advantage on hole 2 even though you haven't started and take a 4 stroke penalty? I would imagine the former. Why can't this apply on the first tee box?

Like you said regarding practice on the course, those rules apply before the round begins, and nowhere does it state that practicing on the course is the exception to when rules start into effect. There is nothing that says rules can't apply to you before a round has started. If there is please point me to it.

Originally Posted by iacas

If you have time to make a declaration, you have time to correct the situation.

You can't assume everyone has time to correct the situation. You can't make a rule just because 999/1000 times the player will have time to correct it. There are rules that are only encountered very rarely, it doesn't mean they shouldn't be rules.

[Fourputt]

Quote:

Originally Posted by jshots

It's not exactly the same, but what would you say about declaring what ball you are playing before the start of a round. Couldn't this be done in the same manner. If it is in the presence of everyone who you are playing with. Of course it doesn't make sense to say you declared a play out of play 4 weeks ago when the rest of your group doesn't know that. And a ball is in play when a stroke has been made, yes of course, but I still believe the rules apply before then, please point me to something that says these rules ONLY apply once the first stroke has been made.

What do you mean about "declaring" the ball you will play.  That isn't even in the rules at all.  It's a courtesy that is sometimes extended, but rarely done outside of a competition, and not always even then.  There is no requirement for such an act, and no requirement in the rules for playing any particular ball, aside from it needing to be a conforming ball.

Quote:

Another question for you... how would you think the rules would apply if the extra club was discovered in between holes, lets say between 1 and 2? Would you take the penalty as 2 strokes because you have only played hole 1 or would you have been considered having that advantage on hole 2 even though you haven't started and take a 4 stroke penalty? I would imagine the former. Why can't this apply on the first tee box?

If the infraction is discovered before the player has made a stroke on the second hole, then it only applies to the first hole.  The rule is quite clear about that.  The second hole doesn't start until the player makes a stroke from the tee.

Quote:

Like you said regarding practice on the course, those rules apply before the round begins, and nowhere does it state that practicing on the course is the exception to when rules start into effect. There is nothing that says rules can't apply to you before a round has started. If there is please point me to it.

It doesn't have to state an exception.  The condition is implicit in the wording of Rule 7-1.  You are not allowed to practice on the course for a stroke competition prior to playing the round.  I can't see how that would even bring up the question.

Quote:

You can't assume everyone has time to correct the situation. You can't make a rule just because 999/1000 times the player will have time to correct it. There are rules that are only encountered very rarely, it doesn't mean they shouldn't be rules.

No assumption is being made.   Rule 4-4 states that a player may not start a round with more than 14 clubs.  Rule 6-1 states that the player is responsible for knowing the rules.  Therefore he should know better and take the time to ensure that he is within the rules before he goes to the tee.  If he puts himself into a position where he can't avoid a breach, then the player , not the rule, is at fault.

xxx

[iacas]

Originally Posted by sean_miller

A club take out of play before a round and placed in a power cart is the extra club in which player's bag? The driver of the cart? The person who's bag the club is closest to? The person who owns the club? Maybe there could be a glass case on the cart to hold clubs not in play, only to be used in case of broken clubs.

The person who owns the club. It's not the guy's sitting in the cart.

Originally Posted by jshots

You can't assume everyone has time to correct the situation. You can't make a rule just because 999/1000 times the player will have time to correct it. There are rules that are only encountered very rarely, it doesn't mean they shouldn't be rules.

The player shouldn't have had 15 clubs in his bag. He had plenty of time to "correct it." He could have left it in his car. At his house. Or not put it in his bag to begin with.

Originally Posted by Fourputt

No assumption is being made.   Rule 4-4 states that a player may not start a round with more than 14 clubs. Rule 6-1 states that the player is responsible for knowing the rules. Therefore he should know better and take the time to ensure that he is within the rules before he goes to the tee. If he puts himself into a position where he can't avoid a breach, then the player, not the rule, is at fault.

Exactly.

[johnthejoiner]

Your friend is correct you can declare a club "out of play" before the start of a round if you have 15 clubs in your bag.

c. Excess Club Declared Out of Play
Any club or clubs carried or used in breach of Rule 4-3a(iii) or Rule 4-4 must be declared out of play by the player to his opponent in match play or his marker or a fellow-competitor in stroke play immediately upon discovery that a breach has occurred.The player must not use the club or clubs for the remainder of the

[iacas]

Originally Posted by johnthejoiner

Your friend is correct you can declare a club "out of play" before the start of a round if you have 15 clubs in your bag.

c. Excess Club Declared Out of Play

Any club or clubs carried or used in breach of Rule 4-3a(iii) or Rule 4-4 must be declared out of play by the player to his opponent in match play or his marker or a fellow-competitor in stroke play immediately upon discovery that a breach has occurred.The player must not use the club or clubs for the remainder of the

John, please read the thread, as I don't believe you're correct. You've quoted a part of the rule that applies after the round has begun; the penalty is already incurred. That's why it says "breach." You can't "breach" this rule before the round has begun.

[johnthejoiner]

Originally Posted by iacas

John, please read the thread, as I don't believe you're correct. You've quoted a part of the rule that applies after the round has begun; the penalty is already incurred. That's why it says "breach." You can't "breach" this rule before the round has begun.

He stated "before the start of a round" the main word being "before"

[Shindig]

He stated "before the start of a round" the main word being "before"

How much longer before the round am I allowed to declare one out of play, then? If I regularly carry 15 clubs to the range, and you and I have a match in two weeks, can I tell you now that my lob wedge is not in play for that, and show up to the first tee with 15, play a few holes, and have no penalty? If so, why? If not, how much time do I have before the round to say this?

[jshots]

Once declared out of play the club is basically a useless piece of metal in your bag. It does nothing and can't be used in that round. Why should you get a penalty when you aren't gaining any kind of unfair advantage what so ever?

Iacas can you point us to somewhere that actually says that the rule applies only after the round has started and also that a round is only considered started when the first ball is put into play off of the first tee?