Stroke Shaving (Cheating)

[gjsuicide]

Originally Posted by tx_basser

I have been caddying for my daughter this year in her age division (14) on the local 9 hole prep tour, providing advice, etc.  The one thing I've noticed is the number of kids that truly can't count past 6, or they are cheating on purpose.  I've been training daughter how to mentally keep a tally in her head of her opponents strokes, rather than just trusting the number they call out is accurate.  If I have spotted a discrepany, I've made her address the girl to resolve the difference before proceeding.  So far this has worked, and she is starting to see how important it is to stay plugged into the round and keep your head in the game.  I told her.. how would you feel if you shot a good score on the HS golf team, only to get beat out by a stroke because someone else wanted to cheat and kick you down to the JV team and take your rightful spot.

It's a shame, but a buddy of mine who has 3 sons who all played on the HS golf team said it was crazy the number of kids who he felt were cheating on purpose and never got called on it.  He did say at the Regional event, all of the "Low Scorers" somehow shot terrible due a walking monitor being placed in each foresome.

What have you witnessed, and it is that pervasive from your experience?

I played on my high school team, thanks to my coach who didn't cut anyone.  Cheating was common.  High school rules were to pick up after double-par, so I would sometimes struggle even breaking 70 on nine holes.  My average score was probably mid 60's, terrible I know but I had never picked up a golf club before joining the team.  Maybe it was the way I was raised or how I felt about sports and integrity on my own, but it never even crossed my mind to cheat.

I only played a few tournaments on the B team considering how much I sucked at golf, but my playing partners/opponents ALWAYS cheated.  Whether it be not counting penalties, missed-tap ins, the foot wedge play, or even just flat out writing down a lower score.  I had playing partners blatantly kick balls out from behind trees and say "Don't say anything, cool?"  I think the only time they couldn't really get away with it was a situation where they putted 3 or more times, or they hacked at a ball in a sandtrap several times before it came out, and everyone was watching.  I didn't care too much, because I sucked so badly and just wanted to end the embarrassment for myself.  Although, it didn't feel to good when I actually managed a magic par or bogey on a hole, and the other players noticed and lowered their scores because there's no way that I could have beat them on a hole.

So sadly, yes cheating happens, a lot.  You're teaching your daughter right, and unfortunately for her to be as successful as possible shes not only going to have to focus on her game, but the game of the other players as well.

As far as your buddy at work telling you he shoots in the 80's only to play with him one day and see him hack it around the entire time, that's another story.

[iacas]

I played with a guy in high school. I shot 74 or something in this big tournament, he shot 83 or something. When we looked at the individual scores on the board - the third kid in the group and I - we saw that he had posted a 73. We asked to see our card (all scores on one card) and after we'd signed it and before he'd turned it in, he changed the scores he shot on almost half of his holes.

I think something similar happened in one of my section events this year. There's no way the guy shot what he claims he shot. And this was after he failed to pay attention to the fact that the "one ball rule" was in effect, and I'd told him that it was when he tried to play a provisional with a different kind of ball earlier in the round.

I'm no longer surprised at the cheating that occurs in golf.

[Unforgiven93]

I've had a pretty good experience with HS golf.  I'm currently heading into my senior year.  I have played with tons of different kids over the last three years, and I always keep track of everyone's scores.  Very rarely do I encounter people that I think are legitimately trying to shave strokes.  Don't get me wrong, there have been a few, but honestly I can only think of a couple that have tried to cheat.

Funny story about this though... I was at my HS home course to play 9 with my Dad, and I saw an 8th grader that I knew.  I know him, and his game, because I help coach a golf camp with my HS coach.  He was a few holes behind us, and we watched him tee off... 4 times.  He rolled all four tee shots about 30 yards.  After we finished playing, we were waiting by the clubhouse and he pulled up.  I jokingly asked him if he shot par, he replied, "No, 38."  He beat me by one shot.  I didn't say anything to him, but when he was far enough away, I looked at my Dad and we both just started laughing.  I know for a fact that he can't shoot below a 50, and I don't understand how someone can blatantly lie to themselves that much.

I always keep track of every shot when I play because it just seems totally pointless to even keep score if you aren't going to count the shots correctly.

[BigTexGolfer]

Hey Tx_Basser you slummin over here from the TFF ?  lol  Which trails have you noticed this in?  My 12 year old daughter plays some NTPGA and US Kids events in the Dallas area and really never had occurred to have her count her playing partner's strokes real closely.  She and I usually know pretty close what the playing partner shot, but not always exactly.  She has pointed out a couple of times she was not sure another kid counted a whiff as a stroke though.  Usually did not matter on those holes since the kid had a max score anyway.  I have had a couple of times where my daughter lost count of a swing of her own once or twice, usually just forgetting about one shot that I remind her of when we go back and add up stroke by stroke. That kid of stuff is pretty common, and unententional.  But as you point out a good teaching moment.  We did have a couple of kids in a team event recently that are probably on their way to being the type of guys that call and report rules violations they think they see on television.  Before they do that they probably need to get a better handle on the rules though.  Caused a lot of angst with the kids they were paired with, and they were probably fortunate they were such good natured kids because it could have gotten ugly.  They showed something like 5 more strokes on their card for their opponent based on some faulty penatly strokes, along with a couple of other conflicts on the course.  After a discussion with the rules official the faulty rulings were corrected though and all of those strokes removed.  Not sure if there was some gamesmanship going on there, or if they really were just trying to enforce rules they did not really understand.

[tx_basser]

Yes, my daughter is playing the prep tour on the NTJPGA, and she really has really taken well to it this year.  I haven't been able to fish much because we are really working on her game in preparation for the HS team this September, and starting the fall Cowboy series 18 hole events.

[imtomtomim]

Originally Posted by shades9323

IMO, in that tournament environment if you aren't calling them on it, you are in fact condoning cheating.

Uh, my first tournament, a county qualifier, I was paired with two cops doing a heavy amount of cheating.  No way was I going to call them out on that, there's too much unrestricted power there.

[nachosgrande]

Sadly, I encountered tons of cheating at the junior and high school levels.  Our opponents would frequently try to cut stroke shaving "deals" with my playing partner and I before teeing off.  These were guys who were always in the newspaper basically "playing" to scratch during the season.  Then come sectionals (with a monitor/scorekeeper), they'd typically blow-up and shoot an 85.

I had a childhood friend that ended up becoming a teaching pro that would literally use the old hole in the pants pocket trick when he'd hit a shot in the trees/ob.  The funniest thing we caught him doing is when he sped ahead in his cart and switched my drive with his.  My drive was about 25 yards further but it was on a pretty steep downhill lie, whereas the ball he hit left him with a flat lie.  Anyways, he refuses to admit that he switched the balls, so my Dad (who caught him in the act) and I just eventually let it slide.  I put my shot safely on the green from the better lie and he pull hooks his into the next tee box.

[ejimsmith]

i was playing one of my favorites courses one time and was joined by a father and son.   they were there for the son to get a practice round in before a high school meet the next day.  i wasn't watching them play, but he did seem to hit the ball well.  at the turn they told me he was 2-under and in the end finished even scratch (72).

later that week i googled his high school and found the results of his meet online.   the dude hit an 85.   now, sure the competition could've changed his game... a couple blow up holes and he's in the 80's.. but still, on that day we played together, while he was hitting the ball well, but not well enough to make me think he was a scratch player.  but i took him at his word that he hit a 72 that day.   i was impressed, but then later that week felt tricked....

[newtogolf]

My playing partners like to "loosely interpret" the rules when we play.  They get on my case because I'd rather go home shooting an honest 105 than a cheaters 95.  I never say anything to them about how they keep their own scores, but will correct them if they try to record my score incorrectly.  They actually get annoyed because I impose penalties on myself for lost balls where as they blame poor course upkeep and don't take a penalty.  I want to become a good golfer with a real handicap, not one that is tainted by mulligans and foot wedges.

The best is listening to them after they play in a tournament where they have to keep real scores and they tell me the course was so tough they shot 10 - 15 over their handicap.

[Cut68]

I actually had a golf coach in H.S. that suggested to all of us that we cut a hole in one of our pockets, so we could shake a golf ball out our pant leg when we're "looking" for our ball in the rough. He also insisted that all the balls in your bag were the same brand and same number. The guy was a complete joke, led to me quitting the team before my senior year

[cougar978]

I will admit I was guilty of cheating on several occasions when I played on our JV team (14-15 years old), as were some other guys on our team (and other schools).  The main reason I did it was because I was lazy - I wanted to put up good scores without putting in the effort in practice.

When I was a junior in high school, we were playing our final varsity qualifying round, and our coach was watching us from another hole.  Another guy in our group hit a ball OB, kicked his ball back on the course, and hit a shot.  When coach saw this, he walked up to the player, and told him to get off the course and never come back.  After what happened, he called a team meeting in the men's locker room after we all got done playing.  He explained what happened, what he did to correct it, and that when you cheat, you show complete disrespect for the sport, and he wasn't going to have that on his team.  Furthermore, he said anyone caught cheating in the future would have the same consequence, no questions asked.

I felt bad for the kid that got booted, because he was my friend (and it could have easily been me that got caught).  However, it made me realize that honesty and integrity go a long way in life, not just golf.  Looking back on it 17 years later, I am glad it happened.  My high school coach and I never really got along, but he did teach me an invaluable lesson about integrity that day.

[newtogolf]

I don't condone it at all, but can almost see the reasons why someone would be inclined to cheat in competition.  In a competition there's something on the line that's worth winning, whether it's money, scholarships, or team championships, but during a regular meaningless round I really don't get the point of cheating.  I guess you can brag to your friends about your low golf handicap but you'll look like a fool if every time you play a round with them your score is way over your handicap.

[parbreaker]

There are more ways to cheat at this game than you can count, and that's the way it's always been. I have always thought that the way someone plays golf can tell you more about the person than just about anything else. It can be a reflection on how they see themselves and what their values are. People are diverse and there always will be cheating. It is sad and it makes me sick to think of cheating in this game, but it's there. In high school I remember seeing it a lot. A few players ended up caught and DQ'd or removed from their respective teams, but it didn't stop others.

There probably are more cheaters at the game than there used to be, which is a reflection on society as a whole in my opinion.

[cougar978]

Originally Posted by Cut68

I actually had a golf coach in H.S. that suggested to all of us that we cut a hole in one of our pockets, so we could shake a golf ball out our pant leg when we're "looking" for our ball in the rough. He also insisted that all the balls in your bag were the same brand and same number. The guy was a complete joke, led to me quitting the team before my senior year

If I were you, I would have written an anonymous note to the school board on that one.  That's pretty low.  Players doing it is one thing, but a coach condoning (and encouraging it) is pretty low.

[Shindig]

If I were you, I would have written an anonymous note to the school board on that one.  That's pretty low.  Players doing it is one thing, but a coach condoning (and encouraging it) is pretty low.

I wonder how much weight this would carry? If anything, it might just get him - or the whole team, until someone identifies who did it - in trouble with the coach. I thought about doing something similar when I was in high school, except with a football coach. I wasn't on his team (or any team, for that matter), but he taught history classes, and if there was a game on Friday, there was a quiz on Monday, with at least one question on our last opponent's signals. Thankfully, I was never in his class, so I never had to figure out what I would have done about it. I also realize knowing an opponent's signals isn't cheating in and of itself, and it certainly doesn't rise to the level of a hole in one's pants for dropping a ball in the rough. But I wonder how effective, if at all, one can complain about this sort of behavior from a sports coach.

[Bastid]

If it's a competition, you better believe that I will call someone out if I see shenanigans happening. If someone wants to take a few mulligans and feel happy with their "75", well I guess that's their right but it just seems silly. If you don't count every shot, how can you get better?

My friend is a good player and I enjoy the matches that we have occasionally. But, when he isn't playing well, he'll just take a mulligan and act like the match stays square. If he hits a chip he doesn't like, he'll just go and get his ball and hit the shot over. When I say something to him about it, he always responds with "it's not like we're in a tournament right now or anything." I love playing with him because he's actually pretty good, but I cannot stand it when he does that. I like knowing that when I've put up a good round I don't have to think about that chip that I did over.

[stevejason]

Too many people think it isn't cheating unless you get caught.

[Grndslmhttr3]

When I played high school golf, I rarely ever noticed cheating, and when I did it was usually in the form of my opponent "forgetting" that they hit a shot, and telling me they scored a stroke less on the hole than they actually did. All it took was a little "reminder" about that shot and most of the time it didn't happen again for the rest of the round.

Now that the only golf I play is recreational with friends, it's a lot less serious (unless we play for money). In our usual foursome, there's one person who cheats (not sure whether or not it's intentional), normally by not adding up stroke penalties from hazards correctly. He's pretty new to the game though, and we've been teaching him a lot of the less obvious rules of golf.