GI Irons for a Mid-Handicapper with Minimal Offset?

[socalsharky]

I have gradually worked my HC down from about 25 to 16.2 over the last 2 years.  I am currently playing TM Burner Plus irons which have a very bulky head and significant offset.  My swing coach and I have improved my swing quite a bit over the last 2 years. My misses are mainly hooks, with occasional pushes or fades, when I hold off on the release for fear of hooking.  My coach now recommends that I look at clubs with less offset, although still some GI features.  I am looking at the Mizuno JPX 800 and 800 pros.  The Titleist AP1's are also spoken well of here, but they seem very bulky, and the offset is almost the same as my TM Burner Plus's.

Does anyone have other irons I should be looking at?  Ball striking is not my strong point, so I still want some GI features, but less offset, since I don't need that.

[shades9323]

Let me guess, your swing coach is also a Mizuno retailer? I doubt the offset is causing you to hook the ball.

[socalsharky]

  shades9323 said:

Originally Posted by shades9323

Let me guess, your swing coach is also a Mizuno retailer? I doubt the offset is causing you to hook the ball.

He is actually on the TM staff.  You don't believe that offset promotes a draw or hook?

[PhillyMac]

  shades9323 said:

Originally Posted by shades9323

Let me guess, your swing coach is also a Mizuno retailer? I doubt the offset is causing you to hook the ball.

I was thinking the same thing. Correct me if I am wrong, but going with a less offset club will more than likely cause you to hook to be enhanced?

[Shaggy]

I went from a set of Callaways Fusion irons to the JPX-800 pro's a few months ago. I have a natural draw and on bad days I can have a really strong draw to even a hook. I havent noticed any increase in my hooks or draws with the Mizunos over the Callaways. I actually have tighter groups with my Mizunos, but in all honesty I attribute that to work with my swing coach and lots of practice. I think that the mizunos have forced me to become more consistant with my swing do to their slightly smaller head size and less offset. The Fusions would disguise some of my mishits with their extra forgiveness and it would be difficult to tell where on the face that I struck the ball, but I can get distinct feedback with the Mizunos. And the Mizunos feel ooohhhhh soooooo sweet when you hit them in the sweet spot.

I don't think that the Mizuno's will increase or decrease your hook, BUT,..... if your a 16 handicap and are working with a coach and playing frequently,..... then I think you would really enjoy the JPX-800 pro's. It will be easier to work the ball with the Mizunos when your game gets to that point than with your current sticks. Bottom line is try and demo the Mizunos and form your own opinion.

[dbwood]

In the spirit of posters suggesting what they themselves play, I'm using Adams A-4 forged, narrower sole, reasonable offset, fairly low center of gravity and enough weight towards the toe that my mishits aren't a complete disaster.

Two others that spring to mind, both discontinued, available cheap and have lower offset are the Cobra FP, and the Callaway X-18 pro.  The Callaway has a really low Center of gravity.

[Meddle]

I really love TM R9's. Forgiving as anything I've ever played, but less offset and not as bulky as most GI irons you see. They are designed with mid-handicappers in mind. You can score them pretty cheap too these days.

Edit: I'll also mention that there is a TP edition of this iron with less offset than the regular edition.

[WUTiger]

The ones I play might be of interest to you: Callaway X20 Tours. These have noticeably less offset than the X20s I played last two years.

The X20 Tours have a Maltby Playability Factor rating of 716, which is in the SGI category (this assumes the original six-category MPF rating system, not the three-category Golf Digest rating system. Under the GD system, it would be considered Game Improvement).

This is more than 100 points higher than the follow-on X22 Tours.

Mine are shafted with PX 5.0 rifle flighted.

I am working on my swing, and the X20 Tours. Compared to the X20s, the slightly smaller head moves through the turf better, especially in the rough. Feel is excellent: You know on impact the quality of your shot. The flighted shafts help get the ball up on the longer irons, and I can almost hit a 3i again. (It actually works quite well when the ball is teed up, still a bit iffy from the fairway)

Back to socal's issues: As far as hooking goes, offset can contribute to hooking, but it is about No. 4 down the list of contributing factors. Your sig-line doesn't mention what shaft flex you have in your irons. If you started with regular shafts and are developing your swing power, you might need stiffer shafts to straighten your shots. Also, grip size can contribute. Too-thin grips can lead to draws and hooks (permit greater hand action), while too-thick grips can lead to fades.

X22 Tours can be found at Callaway Preowned. If you buy some with PX shafts, be aware that the the PX 6.0 are stiffer than DG S300s, and some people find the 6.0 a bit much to handle.  Also, X20 Tours can be adjusted for lie angle, whereas X22 Tours cannot.

[rustyredcab]

I liked the Adams Black CB1 and CB2 forged clubs and loved their look. I heard lots of good things about them and went to demo them expecting to buy them. I would add them to your list.

The Mizunos demoed better for me and I am happy I tried them.Like Shaggy, I was playing 2005 Fusions before switching to JPX 800 Pros. I love my Mizunos too. Feel and all you'll read here and in reviews is true for me. They are also super out of the rough compared to my Fusions (I am a bit of a sweeper and the Mizunos help me get to the ball much better).

As suggested, lots of things can cause a hook. I find that my Mizunos line up to my eye better than my Fusions. I feel like I am squaring the club face at address much better with these clubs. I think the Adams set up square for me too. That's one of the many things that can cause a hook that I can cross off my list.

[drglew]

+1 on X20 Tours.  Great sticks (at least for me).  Another "oldie but goody" you can sometimes find new but at clearance prices are Cleveland TA7's.

  WUTiger said:

Originally Posted by WUTiger

The ones I play might be of interest to you: Callaway X20 Tours. These have noticeably less offset than the X20s I played last two years.

The X20 Tours have a Maltby Playability Factor rating of 716, which is in the SGI category (this assumes the original six-category MPF rating system, not the three-category Golf Digest rating system. Under the GD system, it would be considered Game Improvement).

This is more than 100 points higher than the follow-on X22 Tours.

Mine are shafted with PX 5.0 rifle flighted.

I am working on my swing, and the X20 Tours. Compared to the X20s, the slightly smaller head moves through the turf better, especially in the rough. Feel is excellent: You know on impact the quality of your shot. The flighted shafts help get the ball up on the longer irons, and I can almost hit a 3i again. (It actually works quite well when the ball is teed up, still a bit iffy from the fairway)

Back to socal's issues: As far as hooking goes, offset can contribute to hooking, but it is about No. 4 down the list of contributing factors. Your sig-line doesn't mention what shaft flex you have in your irons. If you started with regular shafts and are developing your swing power, you might need stiffer shafts to straighten your shots. Also, grip size can contribute. Too-thin grips can lead to draws and hooks (permit greater hand action), while too-thick grips can lead to fades.

X22 Tours can be found at Callaway Preowned. If you buy some with PX shafts, be aware that the the PX 6.0 are stiffer than DG S300s, and some people find the 6.0 a bit much to handle.  Also, X20 Tours can be adjusted for lie angle, whereas X22 Tours cannot.

[Chief Broom]

I went from a set of Wilson Staff Di7's (a SGI club) to a set of Ping i10's (supposedly a "player's" iron).  At my fitting for the Pings I was hitting both the i10's and the g10's but I found the i10's to be just as easy for me to hit and the fitter recommended I get the i10's.  I found out pretty quick that the i10's were actually more forgiving to me that the Di7's, so don't automatically assume that because a club is billed as a better player's club that it can't be very forgiving too.  I recommend that you try out a bunch of clubs across a wide spectrum of styles to see what suits you best.

[shades9323]

I think you overemphasize the MPF when looking at irons. Especially since it only deals with the head. The shaft is a much more important factor in "playability".  Do you really believe that the Nike blade should have a higher MPF than the full cavity?

And x-22 tours can be bent.  Maybe your local shop might not do it, but it can be done.

  WUTiger said:

Originally Posted by WUTiger

The ones I play might be of interest to you: Callaway X20 Tours. These have noticeably less offset than the X20s I played last two years.

The X20 Tours have a Maltby Playability Factor rating of 716, which is in the SGI category (this assumes the original six-category MPF rating system, not the three-category Golf Digest rating system. Under the GD system, it would be considered Game Improvement).

This is more than 100 points higher than the follow-on X22 Tours.

Mine are shafted with PX 5.0 rifle flighted.

I am working on my swing, and the X20 Tours. Compared to the X20s, the slightly smaller head moves through the turf better, especially in the rough. Feel is excellent: You know on impact the quality of your shot. The flighted shafts help get the ball up on the longer irons, and I can almost hit a 3i again. (It actually works quite well when the ball is teed up, still a bit iffy from the fairway)

Back to socal's issues: As far as hooking goes, offset can contribute to hooking, but it is about No. 4 down the list of contributing factors. Your sig-line doesn't mention what shaft flex you have in your irons. If you started with regular shafts and are developing your swing power, you might need stiffer shafts to straighten your shots. Also, grip size can contribute. Too-thin grips can lead to draws and hooks (permit greater hand action), while too-thick grips can lead to fades.

X22 Tours can be found at Callaway Preowned. If you buy some with PX shafts, be aware that the the PX 6.0 are stiffer than DG S300s, and some people find the 6.0 a bit much to handle.  Also, X20 Tours can be adjusted for lie angle, whereas X22 Tours cannot.

[glock35ipsc]

X-22's can be bent, they are just much harder to do.  But a competent fitter/builder with the right short hosel bar can do it.

MFP is a great guide and a good reference to start with especially for a newer/high HC newer player, but measures only several mass and dimensional points of a club head.  Maltby places a great deal of emphasis on the Actual Vertical Center of Gravity (which tends to have the largest influence on the final MPF number) and Moment of Inertia (resistance of the club head to twist when struck at a point other than the horizontal center of gravity,  ie: off-center hits).  The lower the AVCOG is, generally the higher the MPF will be.  What the MPF system does not take into account are things like sole bounce angle, sole radius, loft and lie, hosel offset, etc., as well as shaft type and flex, length, swing weight, gross weight, etc.

In Ralph's own words, he says "it takes from 150 or 200 MPF points to 300 or 400 points to see and feel a great difference".

All that being said, judging by my signature, I am a huge fan of Maltby's products.  Personally, I prefer a head with a lower center of gravity, as this helps a sweeper like myself get the ball into the air easier, which is why I went with the KE4 U30 heads, for which I could not be happier!  I think, after learning how his system works and why, it can be a good starting point for someone looking to make a list of clubs to try.  But in the end, nothing beats going out and actually pounding a bunch of clubs.  You will most likely have an "ah-ha!" moment when you hit "THE ONE"!

[glock35ipsc]

  socalsharky said:

Originally Posted by socalsharky

TM Burner Plus irons which have a very bulky head

Just curious.... you mean bulky as in weight, or looks?  FWIW, the Burner Plus 6 iron head Maltby tested for the MFP rating was 259g.  A typical 6 iron head is around the 260g area, +/= 3g or so (1g = .032 ounce).

[sean_miller]

  drglew said:

Originally Posted by drglew

+1 on X20 Tours.  Great sticks (at least for me).  Another "oldie but goody" you can sometimes find new but at clearance prices are Cleveland TA7's.

Good call on the TA7s. I only have a 2-iron and a demo 6-iron in them, but they're so easy to hit it's "almost" boring.

[shades9323]

  sean_miller said:

Originally Posted by sean_miller

Good call on the TA7s. I only have a 2-iron and a demo 6-iron in them, but they're so easy to hit it's "almost" boring.

Hitting them while wearing a runners hat might spice things up a bit!

[WUTiger]

Quote:

  shades9323 said:

I think you overemphasize the MPF when looking at irons. Especially since it only deals with the head. The shaft is a much more important factor in "playability".  Do you really believe that the Nike blade should have a higher MPF than the full cavity?

And x-22 tours can be bent.  Maybe your local shop might not do it, but it can be done.

I don't believe I overemphasized MPF. I would remind you that the second half of my reply dealt with shaft and flex.

Ralph Maltby always caution golfers, as you correctly state, that MPF "only deals with the head." MPF is a starting point, and looking at the specifics of the six measurements which make up the MPF can tell you more specific info about a given iron's design. The overriding issues in playability is how well the head gets the ball up, and how much foregiveness it has for mishits.

But, MPF is a starting point. And, you have to hit the clubs to pick them. But, MPF can cut down the field to six models which probably will match your game, rather than hitting every blade or supercavity on the market, hit and miss.

Blades vs. cavity can sometimes produce funny results. The Callaway X Forged irons from circa 2007 had a higher MPF than the X22 Tours.

As for bending the X22 family of irons, Callaway won't do it (see Callaway Preowned Q&A;). Some clubfitters may do it, but it's not recommended. Basically, it's not something we would want to try out in our garage.

[shades9323]

You need to clarify, callaway PREOWNED won't do it.  Callaway will.

  WUTiger said:

Originally Posted by WUTiger

Quote:

I don't believe I overemphasized MPF. I would remind you that the second half of my reply dealt with shaft and flex.

Ralph Maltby always caution golfers, as you correctly state, that MPF "only deals with the head." MPF is a starting point, and looking at the specifics of the six measurements which make up the MPF can tell you more specific info about a given iron's design. The overriding issues in playability is how well the head gets the ball up, and how much foregiveness it has for mishits.

But, MPF is a starting point. And, you have to hit the clubs to pick them. But, MPF can cut down the field to six models which probably will match your game, rather than hitting every blade or supercavity on the market, hit and miss.

Blades vs. cavity can sometimes produce funny results. The Callaway X Forged irons from circa 2007 had a higher MPF than the X22 Tours.

As for bending the X22 family of irons, Callaway won't do it (see Callaway Preowned Q&A;). Some clubfitters may do it, but it's not recommended. Basically, it's not something we would want to try out in our garage.