Evolution of Stack and Tilt

[MiniBlueDragon]

Nice discussion on driver angle of attack. It seems to be that the majority of pros hit down on a driver as well as irons:

http://www.hititlonger.com/images/uploads/blog/PGATourTrackmanAverages.jpg

http://www.trackman.dk/download/newsletter/newsletter6.pdf (page 5)

The question is whether they do so because they always have done and just haven't changed or whether there's logic behind it, e.g. more accuracy?

[CuppedTin]

Originally Posted by poser

Hitting up on the driver goes farther and has been proven many times.  Think this is why they are changing that.

What backs up this statement other than you just saying it? I'd be willing to bet that I couldn't hit it any further...

[CuppedTin]

Originally Posted by MiniBlueDragon

Nice discussion on driver angle of attack. It seems to be that the majority of pros hit down on a driver as well as irons:

http://www.hititlonger.com/images/uploads/blog/PGATourTrackmanAverages.jpg

http://www.trackman.dk/download/newsletter/newsletter6.pdf (page 5)

The question is whether they do so because they always have done and just haven't changed or whether there's logic behind it, e.g. more accuracy?

Great Post with great data to back it up...

I will never be convinced that having a negative AOA on irons and a positive AOA on Driver will ever be a good idea for my swing. I like the KISS approach.

[poser]

Originally Posted by CuppedTin

What backs up this statement other than you just saying it? I'd be willing to bet that I couldn't hit it any further...

Here is just one source.

http://www.golf.com/golf/gallery/article/0,28242,1697381-14,00.html

It has been shown many times with trackman.  Then again if it makes you feel better that I just make up things on the fly then I once threw a football over a mountain too and its on google look it up.

[michaeljames92]

The more you swing up at the ball, the more you shift the baseline left and hence more likely to fade the ball. A negative angle of attack makes it easier to hit a push draw. Guys like Bubba hit it so long because not only does he swing it hard, but he hits a ridiculous amount up at the ball lowering his spin greatly.

[CuppedTin]

Originally Posted by michaeljames92

The more you swing up at the ball, the more you shift the baseline left and hence more likely to fade the ball. A negative angle of attack makes it easier to hit a push draw. Guys like Bubba hit it so long because not only does he swing it hard, but he hits a ridiculous amount up at the ball lowering his spin greatly.

I thought Bubba had a negative AOA? I was under the assumption that hitting up created a higher spin rate. But then again I have been wrong plenty of times before.

[CuppedTin]

Originally Posted by poser

For some reason my reply isn't showing up in this thread but, here is just one source that hitting up on driver goes longer.

http://www.golf.com/golf/gallery/article/0,28242,1697381-14,00.html

Thanks Poser, good read.

[michaeljames92]

Lowers the spin loft I believe.

[iacas]

Originally Posted by poser

Hitting up on the driver goes farther and has been proven many times.  Think this is why they are changing that.

To be clear, "they" aren't changing it if by "they" you mean Mike and Andy. They still primarily teach on the PGA Tour and they still primarily prefer to see a push draw with the driver. Easier to control.

If by "they" you mean Dave and I at Golf Evolution, then yes, for some students - even "most" students - we're teaching a positive angle of attack and a slight fade or simply closing your stance enough if you want to play a draw.

Hitting up gains distance (generally speaking) but sacrifices some control (generally speaking). The wedge is coming out, rate of closure is a bit higher...

[CuppedTin]

Originally Posted by iacas

To be clear, "they" aren't changing it if by "they" you mean Mike and Andy. They still primarily teach on the PGA Tour and they still primarily prefer to see a push draw with the driver. Easier to control.

If by "they" you mean Dave and I at Golf Evolution, then yes, for some students - even "most" students - we're teaching a positive angle of attack and a slight fade or simply closing your stance enough if you want to play a draw.

Hitting up gains distance (generally speaking) but sacrifices some control (generally speaking). The wedge is coming out, rate of closure is a bit higher...

Thanks for clearing this up Erik, I think I'll stick to the more control and less distance approach with the negative AOA.

[poser]

I actually find a cut shot for me is more controllable witht he driver but, ever other club including 3 wood I hit a push draw.

[mchepp]

As long as the new DVD has nothing to do with Medicus than I am happy to hear they are doing another one. If it is connected to Medicus "NO THANK YOU". I still get calls and spam from the Medicus marketing pricks. Staying away from Medicus should also help them get out the message the way they want rather than the overhyped marketing that was done before. I think Mike and Andy are great teachers so anything they do is informative.

As for hitting up on the driver, well probably not for this thread but if your swing speed is averaging 112mph (average tour pro speed) then hitting -2 with the driver is a good tradeoff of accuracy for distance. Now if your like me at around 98mph well then I need the distance. I went from -4 to +1 and picked up 25-30 yards. I am a little less accurate but hitting 9 iron from the rough is better than 6 iron from the fairway.

[The_Pharaoh]

Originally Posted by CuppedTin

Thanks for clearing this up Erik, I think I'll stick to the more control and less distance approach with the negative AOA.

If you hit it plenty far, then that's a good idea. While I was doing my driver fitting, I messed around trying to hit more up on the ball and it was a disaster! For one, it was extremely difficult to change the AoA more than a degree and two, making solid contact become almost impossible rendering the exercise completely useless.

[CuppedTin]

Originally Posted by The_Pharaoh

If you hit it plenty far, then that's a good idea. While I was doing my driver fitting, I messed around trying to hit more up on the ball and it was a disaster! For one, it was extremely difficult to change the AoA more than a degree and two, making solid contact become almost impossible rendering the exercise completely useless.

I'm not a ReMax Long Drive champion, but my comfortable swing speed is around 118-120... I guess we are all different, but I just like the idea of hitting down. It seems to suit me and my game very well. And I also do not play the push-draw, I'm guessing my ball flight may be considered a pull-fade for a left handed golfer, I don't dare take my hands inside on the back swing because I just do not prefer that ball flight. I wish I could find Erik's ball flight diagram.

[Meesh]

Heres a good chart that shows difference between hitting up vs hitting down.

[CuppedTin]

Is it true that Stack and Tilt will be changing their position on weight being forward from 80% to 60/40?

[The Gill]

Hey Erik, assuming you get +5 AOA is it still expected that there is forward shaft lean at impact? If you can hit up on the ball and somehow hold on to the lag/forward shaft lean would that help maintain the control?

[iacas]

Originally Posted by CuppedTin

Is it true that Stack and Tilt will be changing their position on weight being forward from 80% to 60/40?

It's not 80% until well in the downswing, so I'm not sure what you're talking about.

Originally Posted by The Gill

Hey Erik, assuming you get +5 AOA is it still expected that there is forward shaft lean at impact? If you can hit up on the ball and somehow hold on to the lag/forward shaft lean would that help maintain the control?

You can have a forward leaning shaft, yep. I don't have a bunch of pictures but the Rory one is pretty good. Grant is hitting the ball at low point. If the ball were slightly forward it'd be ascending but with a shaft leaning still a little forward.