is it better to be straight than longer?

[trackster]

Originally Posted by LankyLefty

What you bench has zero effect on how fast you can swing a relatively light object.

There are 2 forms of muscle fiber, one exerts short powerful bursts but runs out of energy quickly, the other takes longer to get going but does not tire as fast.

The first kind, fast twitch fibers, allow you to move a relatively light object, such as a golf club, in a short powerful burst. The other allow you to exert much greater total force but over a longer period of time.

Jaime Sadlowski, could hit it 400+ yards when he was 17 and skinny. Through training and to a larger extent technology hes extended that to 425-430. Being relatively fit, having proper nutrition, and all that stuff will allow your body to perform at its peak level. However training in the gym will not increase that peak level.

I think that this and your previous post are  the most misinformed things I have ever read.  Just because you are skinny doesn't mean you aren't strong.  Just because you are big doesn't mean you are strong.  Take football.  Pro kickers are squatting at upwards of 500 pounds, and some linemen can't even do that.  And we are talking a 150 pound difference in body weight.

I run track (obviously) and I hate it when people say "You can't train speed".  Do squats to wear out your slow twitch muscles, and then do a quick series of plyometrics and your fast twitch muscles will be worked.

Stronger core, more flexible upper body and boom more distance.

Can we stop this silly debate that you can't become a longer hitter.  I would venture that every golfer (that isn't on an Age decline) hits farther then when they started.

[Gioguy21]

Originally Posted by jshots

Keegan Bradley might not be as strong as Tiger, but I bet he is stronger than he might look. If you can increase your flexibility (how big of a turn you make) and you increase how fast you snap your muscles back (fast twitch or whatever you want to call it) you are going to hit the ball further...

But you are saying that this does not do anything? Maybe you aren't exercising correctly then?

i never said it didn't do anything did i? and you're talking in your quote about fast twitch muscles, and NOT strength...and who said i wasn't exercising correctly? lol i threw 92...my point was that lifting isn't the end all be all. YOUR POINT was that weight lifting is the means by which distance is gained when in fact that isn't always true. follow? aright, here's a better illustration as to how weight lifting and fast twitch muscles equate to distance in their relative ways...jason zuback...MONSTER when it comes to lifting...sadlowski...absolute FREAK in terms of fast twitch muscles...you tryin to tell me that jamie can lift as much as jason...no. you're flat out equating distance to lifting and it's not equal.

[jshots]

Originally Posted by Gioguy21

i never said it didn't do anything did i? and you're talking in your quote about fast twitch muscles, and NOT strength...and who said i wasn't exercising correctly? lol i threw 92...my point was that lifting isn't the end all be all. YOUR POINT was that weight lifting is the means by which distance is gained when in fact that isn't always true. follow? aright, here's a better illustration as to how weight lifting and fast twitch muscles equate to distance in their relative ways...jason zuback...MONSTER when it comes to lifting...sadlowski...absolute FREAK in terms of fast twitch muscles...you tryin to tell me that jamie can lift as much as jason...no. you're flat out equating distance to lifting and it's not equal.

Sorry I know you didn't say it doesn't do anything I meant that for LankyLefty

Look at sadlowskis flexibility compared to zuback though... They are just stronger in different areas, if jamie took a backswing as short as zuback I gaurantee he wouldn't be near as long. We shouldn't compare 2 people though you have to think in terms of just 1 person because you are right that everyone is different. If a person goes to the gym and works the right things in the right areas he is going to hit the ball further assuming a good swing.

[x129]

You can train speed and power to a certain extent.  But the improvements are limited. If your in good shape (and mature) and running a 12.5s 100m, a ton of plyos, weights, and overspeed  work might get you down to the low 11s but no amount of training is going to get you down sub 10.  Adding 20 or so yards to your drive through weights, plyos, and the like is pretty reasonable.  Expecting 50+ isn't.

Originally Posted by trackster

I think that this and your previous post are  the most misinformed things I have ever read.  Just because you are skinny doesn't mean you aren't strong.  Just because you are big doesn't mean you are strong.  Take football.  Pro kickers are squatting at upwards of 500 pounds, and some linemen can't even do that.  And we are talking a 150 pound difference in body weight.

I run track (obviously) and I hate it when people say "You can't train speed".  Do squats to wear out your slow twitch muscles, and then do a quick series of plyometrics and your fast twitch muscles will be worked.

Stronger core, more flexible upper body and boom more distance.

Can we stop this silly debate that you can't become a longer hitter.  I would venture that every golfer (that isn't on an Age decline) hits farther then when they started.

[LankyLefty]

Lets stop looking at extremes. Average Joe 90 MPG swing speed, not out of shape, not in shape jusr average.

If this hypothetical person with a 90 MPH swing, which on a good day will give you 230 yard drives, starts hitting the weights, doing hardcore training.

It is within reason to expect that he could extend that to 95 or a bit more MPH or more. Perhaps crack 250 on a good portion of his drives.

So in that sense yeah you can "train" distance.

If you work everyday on your putting, or short game, or any skill. You can get very good at it.

If you work everyday on hitting monster drives... your going to hit a wall.

I pitched in D-III for a year, i threw maybe 75mph on a good day, no amount of training was gonna get me to throw 90 I just didnt have that good an arms.

Similarly on the golf course I drive the ball around 280, and no amount of training is going to kick that up to 325 or 350.

You can maximize your body but you cant train what you aint got.

[LankyLefty]

Thats the greatest thing about this game, length is nice but in the end if you can drive it 200 yards youll be ok.

I will never hit a baseball 400 feet.

Ill never throw a fastball 95 mph.

My curveball doesn't really curve.

I cant hit the pilon in the back of the endzone off my back foot with a 300 pound DE in my grill.

My jump shot isnt all that good and I cant dunk it.

But in golf, while i dont do it as often as the pros do, I can make a shot that any PGA pro would be jealous of. I can sink a 30 foot birdie putt. Or come out a trap and make an amazing chip to save par. I can make an approach shot that stops 2 feet form the hole.

But distance? You cant train it you've either got it or you dont.

[mdl]

I think the, does training -> distance debate is a bit off base.  If you're fat, weak, and stiff, then of course, getting slim, working out, and doing a bunch of stretching will increase your distance.  But what if you're at least sort of standard, say something like not overweight, get some exercise, something like pickup basketball a couple times a week, but no dedicated training, and stretch a little, so you're not super stiff but not flexible either?  Then I agree that some training but no swing change might let you add 20 yards, but if you're hitting it 230, you're not going to get to 300 yard drives just with exercise and stretching.

BUT, I do think you can train extra distance.  If you have a minimum level of athleticism, study the swings of some great ball striker, and spend a lot of time at the range experimenting with your own body and swing, you can teach yourself how to maximize the massive amount of power in your core to get some more distance.  My home course range has a 40'+ fence at 240 yards.  When I started my best driver of the day might short hop that fence.  With the same level of fitness (pretty good throughout), now only my mishits fail to clear the fence.  I've gained 30-40 yards of driver carry with no significant increase in fitness.

My point is, there are more options than bomb it through genetics/athleticism and gain a small bit of distance through hardcore fitness training.

[JetFan1983]

I really didn't want to respond to such a sophomoric debate, but oh well, I can't help it.

Originally Posted by FLOG4

that what a forum is for....Better to kick numbnut posters than my dog. And its striaght in this post. hahah

If that's what you think this forum is for then I don't think you'll have much to offer the community here. Just sayin.

Originally Posted by trackster

If it was as easy as swinging as hard as you could, then wouldn't we all have 18 majors?  Telling a beginner golfer to swing as hard as they can is TERRIBLE advice.

I wouldn't necessarily call it "terrible" in capital letters, but I agree that it's pretty bad. The only situation I see this being good advice is if you have a student who really is clearly swinging much slower and weaker than he's capable of doing. But of course, almost no one under the age of 50 does this. Usually you need them to dial it back and just do some impact drills. Most amateurs don't even know what impact is supposed to feel like.

Originally Posted by mdl

As far as the distance/accuracy debate, I think it's worth practicing both.

IMO, distance and accuracy are both products of a swing that exhibits the correct swing geometry. The better your swing gets, the longer and straighter you become.

Originally Posted by jshots

I don't really understand the argument that you can't teach distance... no shit, you have to go to the gym.

The gym can increase distance for someone who already has a pretty good swing. A high handicapper though will not improve his swing a whole lot by dropping body fat % and increasing strength and flexibility. He'll have more endurance however, and that is obviously key over 18 holes in the summer heat. But the fact is, most of us amateurs already have enough strength and flexibility to hit the ball far, but many of them don't realize this.

To increase distance and accuracy, you need to improve your swing mechanics. Most people don't know how to improve swing mechanics though.

Originally Posted by LankyLefty

Strenth is not equal to distance at all. The gym does nothing for you.

Like I said above, the gym won't do "nothing" for you, but I think its overrated. Just to provide an empirical example here, in 2009-2010, I spent 7 straight months working out religiously and eating right. I lost 40 lbs. When the 2010 golf season started, I was 6' and 156 lbs. with about 9% body fat. Best shape of my life.

It did nothing for me as far as distance and accuracy goes on the golf course. My swing sucked prior to working out and it sucked after working out. I still averaged only about 200 yards off the tee with my driver that season -- the same average I had in 2009.

I had more stamina though and I was a lot more confident in a fitter body. I have no regrets whatsoever losing the weight for golf, but in the end, I found out that, for a high handicapper, the gym didn't help me much.

Originally Posted by LankyLefty

But distance? You cant train it you've either got it or you dont.

I'm assuming you've never had a lesson with a good instructor? After just one lesson (in April of this year) with my teacher, I gained 40 yards off my driver on average. In 2008, my first season playing, I probably averaged about 180 off the tee. In 2009 and 2010 I averaged about 200 yards. This year, I average 240 yards, with my longest drives going about 290-295.

You can most definitely teach distance.

Like I said above, distance and accuracy are a product of a swing that exhibits the correct geometry. Golfers who hit it far and straight exhibit this geometry, whether they realize it or not. High handicappers, simply put, exhibit incorrect geometry and thus hit it short and wildly. In order for the high handicapper to hit it longer, his teacher needs to be smart enough to be able to explain to his student what he's doing wrong, what he must do to change it, and why.

High handicappers with terrible natural swings can improve with a good teacher. They can hit it longer and straighter. I'm living proof of that. I'm not saying I'm a good golfer, but I'm clearly light years better than I have ever been. My teacher has given me the realistic confidence that I can be a good amateur golfer one day, provided I do my part and practice what he's telling me to do on my own.

[mdl]

Quote:

IMO, distance and accuracy are both products of a swing that exhibits the correct swing geometry. The better your swing gets, the longer and straighter you become.

Totally agree.  I'm just saying that going to the range and accepting that only 2-3 out of 10 would go where I wanted but trying to figure out what my body actually had to do to bomb the ball was worthwhile.  I call that practicing distance.  Obviously grooving a correct swing will improve efficiency/power and accuracy.  I'm only saying that as a beginner you can't just instantly manifest a perfect swing, and taking some time to try to figure out in your own body how to generate core power is a worthwhile exercise, alongside figuring out what a smooth line that hits a straight ball at 75% max distance feels like.

[trackster]

Originally Posted by Gioguy21

and yet, it's not everything. take into consideration the build of one tiger woods...and keegan bradley. i dare you to tell me keegan is as strong as tiger. alot of it has to do with genetics, more than you think. i was a pitcher in college, could leg press over 450-500 lbs, weighing 200 and 6'3" and could throw it 92...while a kid on our team, hardly lifted and was a string bean at 6'4" and 180 could chuck it 95+....you my friend are explaining a direct ratio...you lift, you can hit further and it's simply NOT true...each person is entirely different and while weight training is GREAT for some it's debilitating for others in terms of flexibility or fast twitch muscles. some people, regardless of how much flexibility training they do, will be limited. sadlowski is a freak outlier and needs to be taken as an example as such. there comes a point where no matter what you lift or what exercises you do for flexibility...you can only do so much better for your golf swing. so no, it can't do EVERYTHING for you regarding distance.

This is comparing apples to oranges.  If you didn't lift weights maybe you would only throw 85, and maybe if the other kid did lift weights he could throw 100.  You can't use "Golfer A is stronger than Golfer B, but golfer B hit it farther, therefor strength has nothing to do with the golf swing."  Say golfer B was as strong as golfer A, now he may outdrive Golfer A by a good 50 yards instead of 20.

[Gioguy21]

Originally Posted by trackster

This is comparing apples to oranges.  If you didn't lift weights maybe you would only throw 85, and maybe if the other kid did lift weights he could throw 100.  You can't use "Golfer A is stronger than Golfer B, but golfer B hit it farther, therefor strength has nothing to do with the golf swing."  Say golfer B was as strong as golfer A, now he may outdrive Golfer A by a good 50 yards instead of 20.

No actually it's not at all. swinging a golf club and pitching involve alot of the same things. legs, core, etc. both things involve twitch muscles...both things involve a stable base generated through the legs. now, since talking about weight lifting and flexibility...BOTH sports involve those things, along with their positive or negative effects in each regard. my point was the fact that weight lifting is NOT the dependent variable for distance.

[ggolokin]

BIG TIME TIMMY JIM!

haha i think distance and speed is more to do with flexibilty than anything

Originally Posted by Precis1on

Just look at Tim Lincecum pitching a baseball :P.

[newtogolf]

There's strength and there's power - strength is the ability to move weight or resistance through a range of motion, but power involves both strength and speed which is required for a golf swing.  You can gain strength in a gym, but applying that strength to a golf swing is useless without the right technique to generate power.

Originally Posted by ggolokin

haha i think distance and speed is more to do with flexibilty than anything

[FLOG4]

Back to basics-Jack Nicklaus wrote a book- Golf My Way.  In it he advises it takes instruction,exercise, and good health to become good at this game.  He says to learn to swing hard because you need to develope as much swing speed as you can.  Body type kinda dictates swing plane.  I suggest to the OP that he should buy the book.  Over 2 million copies sold....Most bought instruction book ever....Several posters all who happen to be at best average golfers jump on that and relate how ridiculous that is. Swing hard....NO,NO,NO swing easy and hit it straight....So in summary all you other posters you obviously know better than Jack Nicklaus.

[ggolokin]

im way better than jack

Originally Posted by FLOG4

Back to basics-Jack Nicklaus wrote a book- Golf My Way.  In it he advises it takes instruction,exercise, and good health to become good at this game.  He says to learn to swing hard because you need to develope as much swing speed as you can.  Body type kinda dictates swing plane.  I suggest to the OP that he should buy the book.  Over 2 million copies sold....Most bought instruction book ever....Several posters all who happen to be at best average golfers jump on that and relate how ridiculous that is. Swing hard....NO,NO,NO swing easy and hit it straight....So in summary all you other posters you obviously know better than Jack Nicklaus.

[Grumpter]

Quote:

Back to basics-Jack Nicklaus wrote a book- Golf My Way.  In it he advises it takes instruction,exercise, and good health to become good at this game.  He says to learn to swing hard because you need to develope as much swing speed as you can.  Body type kinda dictates swing plane.  I suggest to the OP that he should buy the book.  Over 2 million copies sold....Most bought instruction book ever....Several posters all who happen to be at best average golfers jump on that and relate how ridiculous that is. Swing hard....NO,NO,NO swing easy and hit it straight....So in summary all you other posters you obviously know better than Jack Nicklaus.

There could be a big difference between someones interpretation of "learn to swing as hard as you can" and "learn to swing hard". My guess is Jack was talking about learn to swing hard while still maintaining a fundamentally sound swing. A new golfer hearing “learn to swing as hard as you can” is rarely going to result in a fundamentally sound swing, YMMV.

P.S. It’s not like your current index is all that great.

[trackster]

Originally Posted by Gioguy21

No actually it's not at all. swinging a golf club and pitching involve alot of the same things. legs, core, etc. both things involve twitch muscles...both things involve a stable base generated through the legs. now, since talking about weight lifting and flexibility...BOTH sports involve those things, along with their positive or negative effects in each regard. my point was the fact that weight lifting is NOT the dependent variable for distance.

I meant you can't compare what two different athletes do.  I didn't mean that baseball pitching and golfing where different.  You said that you lifting more than the other kid but he threw harder.  And I said that you can't compare two people.  If he had lifted maybe he would throw even harder.

Originally Posted by FLOG4

Back to basics-Jack Nicklaus wrote a book- Golf My Way.  In it he advises it takes instruction,exercise, and good health to become good at this game.  He says to learn to swing hard because you need to develope as much swing speed as you can.  Body type kinda dictates swing plane.  I suggest to the OP that he should buy the book.  Over 2 million copies sold....Most bought instruction book ever....Several posters all who happen to be at best average golfers jump on that and relate how ridiculous that is. Swing hard....NO,NO,NO swing easy and hit it straight....So in summary all you other posters you obviously know better than Jack Nicklaus.

You keep using this statement over and over again it is quite annoying.  Is Jack Nicklaus the only one who knows anything about golf?  Like in other sports, my track coach could not touch me in a race but he knows more about running than I do.  I'm not saying I'm on Jack's or anyones level, but that doesn't mean that I don't know poor advice when I see it.  Telling someone to swing hard will cause them to tense up and probably swing slower.  If you relax your self you will swing a lot faster.  It may look like an easier swing but it is probably just as fast.

Jack Hamm is probably a longer hitter than anyone on here , but he is full of hot air.  Do you want us to take his advice to the T?

Secondly you don't need to develop as much swing speed as you can.  Its not always about swing speed.  Thats why you have 14 clubs for distance control.

[Gioguy21]

Originally Posted by trackster

I meant you can't compare what two different athletes do.  I didn't mean that baseball pitching and golfing where different.  You said that you lifting more than the other kid but he threw harder.  And I said that you can't compare two people.  If he had lifted maybe he would throw even harder.

that is incorrect. you're making it a direct correlation and it's not. if this were true, any power lifter would have the attributes to be the hardest throwing pitcher, as would the longest driving golfer...(here in lies my connection to golf by example of zuback vs. sadlowski)


lifting/weightlifting do not = distance on a golf course.