Can we all finally agree that Tiger is done?

[bogdan101]

I predict Tiger will be again the dominant player he used to be. When? In a few years, when he joins the Senior Tour...

[jamo]

I predict Tiger will be again the dominant player he used to be. When? In a few years, when he joins the Senior Tour...

If by "a few" you mean 14 years, then sure.

[Mr. Desmond]

Tiger is still undergoing a swing change - and when he's changed his swing in the past, the short game was always the last to come back.

[iacas]

Originally Posted by brocks

It will be very interesting to see who's better next year. My question for the '18>14' guys, though, is this: Suppose Tiger gets to the point where he can win majors when Rory is off his game, but even at his best, his A game can't beat Rory's A game.

Is Tiger still the better player, because he has more majors?

You really like to try to hammer the "18 > 14" people, eh? It's a more valid comparison than you're willing to admit because Tiger's been playing golf for a long time. It's closer to "a career" than whatever Rory's at right now. When Rory's got 16 years we can compare it to Tiger's or Jack's careers. Right now all we can say is that he's ahead of Tiger's pace, and can make our own judgments on who is better at any given moment (right now Rory, duh).

Originally Posted by Mr. Desmond

Tiger is still undergoing a swing change - and when he's changed his swing in the past, the short game was always the last to come back.

That said it's been a full two years. Augusta 2013 will be huge for him, as that'll be > 2.5 years. It's never taken this long, and I don't think his short game was really to blame.

[MbolicGolf]

didn't he win alot this year?

[LuciusWooding]

Originally Posted by MbolicGolf

didn't he win alot this year?

Pfft, he started like 15 tournaments and lost 12 of them! That's like an .800 losing percentage in my book.

[Pablo68]

I don't buy it that it's his swing change not fully honed or if it is, it goes back to a mental thing. As iacas stated, it's been two years and if this guy is the same mentally that he used to be, the swing change would be dialed in. He's just not 100% in control anymore and he can't handle it.

Also, he's not as revered and feared as he once was. Guys were used to getting their butts kicked by this guy and now that they've seen him bleed, they no longer fear him. The younger generation coming up are hitting it just as long if not longer as well.

[Ping]

You are making excuses for his poor play..nothing more.

This thread is focusing on whether he will "dominate as he once did"..not a chance. His self-inflicted wounds are fatal..coaches, family, etc. have all contributed to his demise.

Whether he "comes back" is irrelevant..as is he. He can no longer win as long as players like Rory et,al. are in the field. Sure, he can beat the Sabatini's and the Van Pelts of the tour..but he will never compete against the "A" players..that he once was..and he knows it.

[majorchamp]

Tiger won't be dominant again mostly because the depth of fields and quality of talent is more superior then 10-12 years ago.

Hell, I am somewhat curious if the quality of his play "today" would get him wins (less dominant wins by margins of strokes) but wins nonetheless back 10 years ago.

I think his putting sucks right now. He seems to be hitting the ball just fine, he just can't get the ball in the hole.

[atb5079]

its all in his head. stop overthinking everything tiger. you have more ability than anyone. stop playing golf swing and just play golf.

[mmoan2]

If Tiger is still blowing tournaments, especially majors, like he has been this year after the PGA is over in 2013, I will write him off as never again returning to peak form. However, if history repeats itself, it was really only after 2 years under Butch - beginning in 1997 - and 2 years under Hank - beginning in the end of 2005 - that his swing changes took full effect and he became dominant. If we dismiss most of 2011 under Foley due to injury, it's been about 2 years now since he started working with him, and he's still a 3-time winner on tour and the (second now?) leading money winner. Progress is clearly there, but he really needs to figure out his driver, distance control on approaches from 150>, and of course improve the putting, in that order. It wasn't putting that killed him in the PGA, it was the first two, and his inability to shape his shot in the crosswinds. Sure, he missed a lot of putts, but he made plenty as well, and its a lot easier to make an 8 footer - which Rory had plenty of because the rest of his game was so sharp - than a 15-20 footer, which Tiger had several times and missed by millimeters. Tiger also saved par from 10+ feet several times, and his short game was actually very good. You can only go to the well so many times from 10+ feet, though, I don't care if you're Ben Crenshaw, Brad Faxon, or Tiger Woods.

I hope he returns to some semblance of 2000 or 2007. Rory is ready to explode, will be better than Phil ever was, and it'd be great to watch Tiger and Rory go head-to-head for a couple of years. For now, Tiger 3.0 will continue to tease us with an "almost there" result. If he's 38 and has had 3 years to figure it out, we'll have to live with a second rate Tiger Woods forever. Which, BTW, will probably win 2 or 3 times a year to easily eclipse Sam Snead's victory record, and grab another major and compete in several others. I just wish he had the confidence to hit miraculous shots like he once did. Like at the Canadian Open in 2000, or at Pebble Beach with a 7-iron in thick rough from 200 yards, etc.

[Paradox]

I think people should look at Rory realistically before claiming he's unbeatable.

T40 at the Masters

Cut at the Players

Cut at Memorial

Cut at U.S. Open

T60 at Open Championship

Hell at last years PGA championship Rory was T64 at +11.

Point is...The field in professional golf is much stronger than it was in 2000 or even 2008.  A LOT of guys are able to win on any weekend and there won't ever be a guy who just dominates the game.  Not Rory, Not Tiger, not anyone else...it'll be a much closer race for everyone.

Tiger isn't done, its just harder and so it doesn't appear "easy" anymore.

[Mr. Desmond]

Originally Posted by Pablo68

I don't buy it that it's his swing change not fully honed or if it is, it goes back to a mental thing. As iacas stated, it's been two years and if this guy is the same mentally that he used to be, the swing change would be dialed in. He's just not 100% in control anymore and he can't handle it.

Also, he's not as revered and feared as he once was. Guys were used to getting their butts kicked by this guy and now that they've seen him bleed, they no longer fear him. The younger generation coming up are hitting it just as long if not longer as well.

Two years, and while recovering from injuries.

I mean, if this is all Foley can do, Tiger needs to learn the Five Keys or go full blown S&T.; I hope Tiger is still learning the swing, because he still has some issues.

[bwdial]

Originally Posted by Pablo68

I don't buy it that it's his swing change not fully honed or if it is, it goes back to a mental thing. As iacas stated, it's been two years and if this guy is the same mentally that he used to be, the swing change would be dialed in. He's just not 100% in control anymore and he can't handle it.

Also, he's not as revered and feared as he once was. Guys were used to getting their butts kicked by this guy and now that they've seen him bleed, they no longer fear him. The younger generation coming up are hitting it just as long if not longer as well.

This is exactly what I'm thinking every time I see him airmail an approach shot over the green.  I heard someone mention that on the range everything seems to be fine and dialed in, but on the course it's not.  That makes me think that it's something mental.

Originally Posted by majorchamp

Tiger won't be dominant again mostly because the depth of fields and quality of talent is more superior then 10-12 years ago.

Hell, I am somewhat curious if the quality of his play "today" would get him wins (less dominant wins by margins of strokes) but wins nonetheless back 10 years ago.

I think his putting sucks right now. He seems to be hitting the ball just fine, he just can't get the ball in the hole.

It's not just his putting.  He's putting too much pressure on his putting because he's missing greens with clubs that he used to stick close.  Missed eight footers for birdie don't resonate nearly as much as missed eight footer for par.  Friday's putting exhibition was an aberration, which also makes me think it's mental, like his short iron game.  When his mind got involved, he seemed to get more mechanical and tense, and he just didn't roll the ball as well.

Originally Posted by Mr. Desmond

Two years, and while recovering from injuries.

I mean, if this is all Foley can do, Tiger needs to learn the Five Keys or go full blown S&T.; I hope Tiger is still learning the swing, because he still has some issues.

The injuries he's suffered sure haven't helped much, and they certainly aren't going to make things any easier as he gets closer to 40.

[zipazoid]

Couple thoughts -

Re the 'Not fearing Tiger' thing - in the majors this year he really hasn't put himself in a position to be feared. But in his last win, when he got to the lead, Brendan de Jonge folded like a cheap suit. Yeah I know, it's Brendan de Jonge. Point being, it's easy to say other players don't fear Tiger and it's true to an extent, but what has happened in the majors is Tiger has shot himself out of contention on the weekends in order to be feared. Nobody fears a guy that flies greens with a wedge or misses makeable putts, whether his name is Tiger Woods or not.

Going off of the above, it's obvious Tiger still needs to work on his own game. Once he can resolve his wedge play & start making the critical putts (and he's close there - he's putting well, they're just not falling), then he will win majors again. Yeah, I am sure that Rory doesn't "fear" him, and that's good. He shouldn't fear him - Rory's got plenty of game to beat Tiger.

So, the Tiger of 2000 is dead. We won't ever see that kind of domination from his again, I am pretty sure. But that doesn't mean he won't win more majors.

Therefore, he is far from done. It's just a different world he is competing in now.

[MSchott]

Originally Posted by Ping

You are making excuses for his poor play..nothing more.

This thread is focusing on whether he will "dominate as he once did"..not a chance. His self-inflicted wounds are fatal..coaches, family, etc. have all contributed to his demise.

Whether he "comes back" is irrelevant..as is he. He can no longer win as long as players like Rory et,al. are in the field. Sure, he can beat the Sabatini's and the Van Pelts of the tour..but he will never compete against the "A" players..that he once was..and he knows it.

You are overreacting. He's already beaten many of the best in the 3 tournaments he's won this year. There's no "demise" unless you mean he's not as dominant as he was 5 years ago. There's no doubt that right now he has putting issues but he's competed at the top in all 4 majors this year and in tournaments where both have played he's beaten Rory in nearly all of them. And I can tell you for damn sure, he doesn't know that he can't compete against them. When has Tiger Woods ever lacked for confidence?

[majorchamp]

As good as Rory is, and will be...I still believe we haven't seen the best of Tiger yet (with regards to the last 5 years, not 2000) and once a couple of those things click in his game, I think his best still beats Rory's best.

The tournaments this year where he has played up to "Tiger" standards, and even then its probably 80%, his playing competitors have been astonished at what he could do with the golf ball and how he played. That level of "fear" is still there, it's just dormant because all the players who have been on tour since 2000 fully know that he still has "it" and its a matter of time before it reappears. They have seen him at his best, they have seen what he can do and unfortunately all these recent young guns in the last handful of years have been spoiled with a mediocre Tiger.  The fear is there, he just needs to put it altogether for multiple tournaments and when his name pops up on a leaderboard and "doesn't" go away, players "will" react.

just my 2 cents.

[muggs]

One very important fact that is always overlooked is the fact that today his competition is MUCH better compared to ten years ago. There are great young players on Tour today. When you add that to the constant swing changes, the mental woes, his body breaking down, getting older...these things take their toll.

Consider this, he has not shot an under par round on a Saturday OR Sunday at a Major this season. Did you ever believe you'd hear that about Tiger Woods?

He has been so dominate for so long, I guess it's hard for some people to see what is clearly written on the walls here...the torch is being passed. He was as talented and electric a player the game has ever seen, but his run is over. He'll still win events, he definitely could win another Major, possibly two. But if you were to consider such a fall from grace 8 or 9 years ago, you wouldn't have thought it possible. Back then, you thought he'd win two dozen Majors before he retired.

What drives me crazy is that he is still the only story...I guess that says more about mankind's collective lack of creativity than anything else. In my opinion, it's time to move on. Let's make the great youth movement the tour is seeing the story.