Playing by the rules........ Is there one here who can cast the first stone?

[Kobey]

What about courses?  If I play on a professional type course and play by all the rules then I am playing golf.

If I play on a par 3 course and play by all the rules then I am still playing golf.

If I go to my local putt putt course and play by all the rules, am I still playing golf?

[Fourputt]

Originally Posted by Shorty

Ha -

I used to go down to a bowling alley near me when I was young and they gave you a sheet of paper and a pencil and you did it yourself. Never thought of cheating though. Always seemed happy with a score of around 180 when I was 12 or whatever.

Now, as you say, they all have the electronic system. I assumed that it was because the average moron these days can't work out the system.

I have tried to explain how the system works to kids brought up with then screen system and  - ......man..people think cricket is hard to explain!!!!

It took a lot of effort even back in the days of manual scoring for some people to figure it out.  It really isn't all that complicated, but I figure that there's hardly anyone under 30 who would have a clue how to figure the score these days.   I haven't touched a bowling ball in 10 years, and haven't kept score manually in more than 25 years, yet I could step in and do it right now without even thinking about it.

[Fourputt]

Originally Posted by Kobey

What about courses?  If I play on a professional type course and play by all the rules then I am playing golf.

If I play on a par 3 course and play by all the rules then I am still playing golf.

If I go to my local putt putt course and play by all the rules, am I still playing golf?

The rules of golf don't apply to miniature golf. so no it still wouldn't be golf.  Miniature golf is fun, but nobody in his right mind would ever confuse it with the real thing.

[sean_miller]

Originally Posted by Shorty

Quote:

Originally Posted by sean_miller

I mean....if you are bowling, do you call spares strikes and call it a spare if you only leave two pins standing?

Around here, players are such inherent cheats that bowling alleys resorted to electronic scoring systems. Basically, all the players have to do is enter their names and roll the balls toward the pins, and there's no guarantee the names on the screen are real either. The computer takes care of all the scoring, but often has no way to validate the identity of the player or whether or not he's using a regulation ball. Yeah, it’s that bad!!

Ha -

I used to go down to a bowling alley near me when I was young and they gave you a sheet of paper and a pencil and you did it yourself. Never thought of cheating though. Always seemed happy with a score of around 180 when I was 12 or whatever.

Now, as you say, they all have the electronic system. I assumed that it was because the average moron these days can't work out the system.

I have tried to explain how the system works to kids brought up with then screen system and  - ......man..people think cricket is hard to explain!!!!

And you're right about the other stuff. I only discuss golf with people who I know are avid players.

Yeah, I'm pretty sure a child could keep score in bowling, but why bother because nobody cares. Sort of like the vast majority of rounds casual golfers play. Who cares?

[Spyder]

I would venture to bet that there are actually people out there who have watched Happy Gilmore and believe playing putt-putt will help their putting game in same way, or be considered a form of "practice putting". There's always the oddball.

(In regards to the off-topic bowling scores, our "mom and pop" house in our city didn't go to automatic scoring until 5 years ago. I'm 27 and remember manually keeping score from the age of 8 all the way to 22. The funny thing is, we have a real crew of "real" bowlers in that house who all average 190-230 and have known each other in the league/tournament setting for many, many years. I'm still part of this league on Friday nights and we run $10 brackets on the honor system. You finish bowling, you go to the pro shop window where the brackets are taped up, you write down your score. Not once in my 10 years of league bowling have I ever heard of anyone cheating the system and writing down a false score. This also makes me feel old just talking about it lol. Meanwhile, the older guys are saying "27? old? **** you! )

My point with the off-topic above is that there are some very honest people out there. It takes work/luck to find them, but they do exist. I was raised to hand you the $20.00 that fell out of your wallet, regardless if I'm starving with no gas money. I find that cheating is simply cheating yourself from the truth, which is usually a lot more fun.

If I'm playing golf, how boring would it be to simply yell Fore, shoot 5, and write 3? I would rather see the actual scoring trend and feel rewarded on my legitimate score.

I still believe that all of this has nothing to do with the topic at hand though. The real question, again, is why do people care what people do in their own casual rounds? If you see, or know of someone, cheating during a tournament where USGA is observed by default, simply report it. Otherwise, you really have no place in telling someone that because they took a mulligan or two, they're not actually playing "golf". There's a fine line in everything in life. If someone takes a re-tee on every single hole or continuously adjusts their lie, drops improperly, etc. - that is not golf. If someone is hanging with friends though and knowingly breaks a rule in a casual round, such as taking a re-tee without penalty, you can't (and shouldn't) just jump in and tell them they're not playing golf and they're a cheat. At that point you really need to reevaluate how much time you have on your hands and worry about yourself. This is my own humble opinion of course.

[jgreen85]

What about a person who says they shot a 72 legitimately? This 72 was due to them being a 16 handicap and really shooting an 88. It seems like a lot of this "scoring" ignores handicap and is everyone playing to scratch. In other words, is it incorrect to say I shot a 72 in this scenario?

[luu5]

Originally Posted by jgreen85

What about a person who says they shot a 72 legitimately? This 72 was due to them being a 16 handicap and really shooting an 88. It seems like a lot of this "scoring" ignores handicap and is everyone playing to scratch. In other words, is it incorrect to say I shot a 72 in this scenario?

First I thought that no-one is interested in net score. But then I thought that in EGA we talk about stableford points and when someone shoots more than 36 points you know they shoot below their (sloped) handicap. In USGA HC it is almost the same when someone says their net score, making sure it is the net result. Of course if I know the person I can distinguish between their true score and net score...

Of course if the tournament is handicapped one then it is different story.

[jgreen85]

Originally Posted by luu5

First I thought that no-one is interested in net score. But then I thought that in EGA we talk about stableford points and when someone shoots more than 36 points you know they shoot below their (sloped) handicap. In USGA HC it is almost the same when someone says their net score, making sure it is the net result. Of course if I know the person I can distinguish between their true score and net score...

Of course if the tournament is handicapped one then it is different story.

I guess my question is, if I have a true 16 handicap, shouldn't I state my net score when someone asks me what I shot?

[sean_miller]

Originally Posted by jgreen85

Quote:

Originally Posted by luu5

First I thought that no-one is interested in net score. But then I thought that in EGA we talk about stableford points and when someone shoots more than 36 points you know they shoot below their (sloped) handicap. In USGA HC it is almost the same when someone says their net score, making sure it is the net result. Of course if I know the person I can distinguish between their true score and net score...

Of course if the tournament is handicapped one then it is different story.

I guess my question is, if I have a true 16 handicap, shouldn't I state my net score when someone asks me what I shot?

"Why would you do that?" I guess was his response.

[sacm3bill]

Originally Posted by jgreen85

I guess my question is, if I have a true 16 handicap, shouldn't I state my net score when someone asks me what I shot?

Nope - when anyone asks what you shot they're asking what you actually shot.  If it's in a situation where net score is also relevant, you'd say "I shot a net x".

[tristanhilton85]

Originally Posted by jgreen85

I guess my question is, if I have a true 16 handicap, shouldn't I state my net score when someone asks me what I shot?

If somebody asks you what you shot, then you tell them your (real) score... If you are giving your net score, you should indicate that it is your net score to avoid any confusion.

[Kobey]

Originally Posted by Fourputt

The rules of golf don't apply to miniature golf. so no it still wouldn't be golf.  Miniature golf is fun, but nobody in his right mind would ever confuse it with the real thing.

This is the first rule on the USGA website:

1-1. General

The Game of Golf consists of playing a ball with a club from the teeing ground into the hole by a stroke or successive strokes in accordance with the Rules .

Rules are defined as:

Rule or Rules
The term " Rule " includes:

a. The Rules of Golf and their interpretations as contained in "Decisions on the Rules of Golf";

b. Any Conditions of Competition established by the Committee under Rule 33-1 and Appendix I;

c. Any Local Rules established by the Committee under Rule 33-8a and Appendix I; and

d. The specifications on clubs and the ball in Appendices II and III and their interpretations as contained in "A Guide to the Rules on Clubs and Balls."

Committee is defined as:

Committee
The " Committee " is the committee in charge of the competition or, if the matter does not arise in a competition, the committee in charge of the course .

Course is defined as:

Course
The " course " is the whole area within any boundaries established by the Committee (see Rule 33-2 ).

So why wouldn't the rules of golf apply to miniature golf?  I know no one calls mini golf real golf, but where is the line drawn?  There is nothing I can find in the rules that says how big a course has to be.  So I guess it is a matter of opinion.  If I made a course where the average hole length was 50 yards, would that still be real golf?

I guess the biggest issue I have is that the USGA defines the game by stating that you have to use their rules.  To me that would be like NASCAR saying it is only auto racing if you use their rules.  Anything else would be similar to but not actual racing.

I know that standardized rules are needed to ensure fair competitions and have no problem with that, but anyone who says that people who don't play by those rules aren't playing real golf are only stating their opinion, not an established fact.

[turtleback]

Originally Posted by jgreen85

I guess my question is, if I have a true 16 handicap, shouldn't I state my net score when someone asks me what I shot?

No, you shot 88 which gave you a net 72.  But you didn't shoot 72.

[zeg]

Originally Posted by jgreen85

I guess my question is, if I have a true 16 handicap, shouldn't I state my net score when someone asks me what I shot?

It depends on the context.  There's no absolute answer, and there's no deeper morality to the choice of rules for golf.  The sole purpose of the rules is to create a level playing field.  If that's not needed for your situation, then play however you like (within the limits set by respecting the course and those with whom you're sharing it).

Why is someone asking what you shot?  If you're in competition with them, then answer however is appropriate for that competition.  If you're just shooting the breeze and it comes up, then explain which number you're giving.  If you're playing non-standard rules, then you probably ought to mention that if they don't already know.

[Grumpter]

Quote:

I mean....if you are bowling, do you call spares strikes and call it a spare if you only leave two pins standing?

Bowling has what a whopping total of 1 penalty rule that influences a players score? Loss of shot if they go over the foul line. How many casual players do you think actually follow that 1 rule? I don't recall any casual group I played with ever resetting the pins on a foul. Even if they did reset I doubt they would know to allow the player only 1 more roll for that frame. Do you think casual players are resetting the pins when it is noticed, after a player has begun to roll the ball, that one of the pins was missing?

The rules of bowling seem to rarely have any effect on the score unless someone repeatedly breaks the foul line rule. Give bowling about 500 more scoring rules and I bet you will start to see scoring discepancies like golf.

[Kobey]

I just read something interesting off the USGA FAQ pages.

Rule Misc.

Scrambles

Q. What USGA Rules apply for a Scramble Format?

A. A scramble format is not covered under the Rules of Golf. The Committee in charge of the competition must determine the necessary rules for the format.

Since that is the only type of tournament I ever play in, I guess I don't have to worry much about rules.

[sacm3bill]

Originally Posted by Kobey

I just read something interesting off the USGA FAQ pages.

Rule Misc.

Scrambles

Q.  What USGA Rules apply for a Scramble Format?

A.  A scramble format is not covered under the Rules of Golf. The Committee in charge of the competition must determine the necessary rules for the format.

Since that is the only type of tournament I ever play in, I guess I don't have to worry much about rules.

Many scrambles are handicapped (i.e., the players' handicaps are used to determine net scores).  If you play in any handicapped scrambles, you will need to have played by the rules in the process of establishing your handicap.

[Kobey]

Originally Posted by sacm3bill

Many scrambles are handicapped (i.e., the players' handicaps are used to determine net scores).  If you play in any handicapped scrambles, you will need to have played by the rules in the process of establishing your handicap.

True.  But why would you use an official golf handicap in something that is close to but not actually golf?