Joe Paterno and Penn State

[jamo]

You mean to say you doubt it will be put up again, no? I have the feeling that Pa's career is more engrained in people's minds than this scandal will be. Think Michael Jackson.  Will be different if things get significantly worse for Joe Pa's story though - I don't expect that though.

Yes, I changed it in my post. I think to most people outside of Penn State he's going to be more associated with Sandusky than winning football games. As time goes on I don't see that getting any better. Only time will tell.

[newtogolf]

Sure it will, Paterno will be a name that's never spoken at PSU by admin or faculty.  Over time people will forget who he was, except for his family and the families of Sandusky's victims.

Is it just me or is there an irony that you seem to feel the need to defend Paterno yet refuse to game a driver named Diablo?  I can defend your right to not buy a driver that's at conflict with your faith, but defending Paterno is way too close to the Catholic church and their coverup of priests molesting alter boys.

Originally Posted by inthehole

sorry to disappoint - will never happen.   JoPa is far too ingrained in Penn State DNA for that to happen...

[Kapanda]

Quote:

Originally Posted by newtogolf

Sure it will, Paterno will be a name that's never spoken at PSU by admin or faculty.  Over time people will forget who he was, except for his family and the families of Sandusky's victims.

Doubt that'll ever happen. The guy was there for over six decades. He doesn't all of a sudden become he-who-shall-not-be-named...

Read the books when I was a kid.

Quote:

Is it just me or is there an irony that you seem to feel the need to defend Paterno yet refuse to game a driver named Diablo?  I can defend your right to not buy a driver that's at conflict with your faith, but defending Paterno is way too close to the Catholic church and their coverup of priests molesting alter boys.

That was unnecessary, don't you think?

[Kapanda]

The Paterno Library will maintain its name. Rightly so.

[Kapanda]

It seems NCAA vacated Joe Pa's wins from 1998 to 2011.

My guess is that they did so not in the name of fairness, but in the name of deterrence. Let any future coach know that if any such a scandal surfaces in the future, it will be dealt with harshly.

Unfair on Joe Pa, but it is a good precedent to set IMO. In any case, everyone will know what Joe Pa's record is.

With that said, I'm also thinking that it really messes up the record books, which might create unnecessary repercussions for years to come.

[newtogolf]

You're giving JoePa way too much credit.  JoePa was relevant because of his longevity at PSU and the records as coach of PSU.  Now that he's passed,  his wins from 1998-2011 vacated (removing him from discussions of coaches with most wins) and the scandal tied to his name I doubt there will be many references made about him in any sort of positive light during PSU telecasts.

It's not unfair to Paterno, I don't get how you don't see the severity of his role in the coverup and that if he was alive he'd be facing criminal prosecution.  I suggest you go visit a charity that deals with abused kids and get a first hand view of what these kids go through, because you're coming off as very unsensitive to the victims in your persistent defense of JoePa.

Quote:

It seems NCAA vacated Joe Pa's wins from 1998 to 2011.

My guess is that they did so not in the name of fairness, but in the name of deterrence. Let any future coach know that if any such a scandal surfaces in the future, it will be dealt with harshly.

Unfair on Joe Pa, but it is a good precedent to set IMO. In any case, everyone will know what Joe Pa's record is.

With that said, I'm also thinking that it really messes up the record books, which might create unnecessary repercussions for years to come.

[newtogolf]

No, not at all.  Paterno did what the Catholic church has done for years, cover up and defend pedophiles.  I have no tolerance or sympathy for someone that allows innocent children to be abused or protects those that violate them.

Originally Posted by Kapanda

That was unnecessary, don't you think?

[inthehole]

Originally Posted by newtogolf

but defending Paterno is way too close to the Catholic church and their coverup of priests molesting alter boys.

nice try - not taking the bait.

[newtogolf]

No baiting here, just trying to understand the rationale of feeling the need to defend a guy (Paterno) who covers up for a pedophile but refusing to game a driver named Diablo because of religious faith.

Originally Posted by inthehole

nice try - not taking the bait.

[bunkerputt]

People are more important than football, or legacies, or whatever other institution is put in their place.  That's the root of the issue.  Just like you take out more tissue than needed when excising cancerous tumor, NCAA has to err on the side of going to far.

[Kapanda]

Originally Posted by newtogolf

No, not at all.  Paterno did what the Catholic church has done for years, cover up and defend pedophiles.  I have no tolerance or sympathy for someone that allows innocent children to be abused or protects those that violate them.

Good for you. But there was no need to invoke his personal beliefs. They have no connection whatsoever with the conversation at hand.

[rustyredcab]

Originally Posted by bunkerputt

People are more important than football, or legacies, or whatever other institution is put in their place.  That's the root of the issue.  Just like you take out more tissue than needed when excising cancerous tumor, NCAA has to err on the side of going to far. (bold added by Rustyredcab)

And, IMHO, they did not go nearly far enough. They did not give them the death penalty because it would injure people not involved in the scandal. So now the punishment cannot effect people outside those who did the wrong-deed? Tell that to USC, OSU, or SMU... or plenty of other schools.

This was neglect (at best) at the highest levels of the University. The worst offense we've seen from an NCAA school. It seems clearly to have been done to protect the program from scandal. And now the NCAA protects the program to protect the innocent.

I hope all the better players on the Penn State team leave for other schools and the bad players simply stay in school and do not play. Their scholarships are all safe as long as they make grades.

I look for more punishments to come down once the criminal trials are over. Look for staff to be suspended or banned if they knew or should have known.

[Lefty-Golfer]

my opinion is they are punishing the son for the sins of the father. there is nobody left that was responsible, they are dead, being prosecuted or out of a job. The fact that PSU signed off on the aggreement is insane. The people being punished will be the current student body, the current athletic teams the are supported by football and so forth. it accomplishes nothing...it is a public relations ploy...and it only makes a bad situation worse.

This has nothing do with the NCAA

[newtogolf]

I heard it explained that part of the reason PSU didn't get the Death Penalty was because it was their first offense.  The Death Penalty rule is written in such a way that it's a deterrent to repeat offenders and not intended to use on first offenders.  PSU is on probation and will suffer the Death Penalty if they violate any other NCAA rules.

Originally Posted by rustyredcab

And, IMHO, they did not go nearly far enough. They did not give them the death penalty because it would injure people not involved in the scandal. So now the punishment cannot effect people outside those who did the wrong-deed? Tell that to USC, OSU, or SMU... or plenty of other schools.

This was neglect (at best) at the highest levels of the University. The worst offense we've seen from an NCAA school. It seems clearly to have been done to protect the program from scandal. And now the NCAA protects the program to protect the innocent.

I hope all the better players on the Penn State team leave for other schools and the bad players simply stay in school and do not play. Their scholarships are all safe as long as they make grades.

I look for more punishments to come down once the criminal trials are over. Look for staff to be suspended or banned if they knew or should have known.

[Lefty-Golfer]

Originally Posted by rustyredcab

And, IMHO, they did not go nearly far enough. They did not give them the death penalty because it would injure people not involved in the scandal. So now the punishment cannot effect people outside those who did the wrong-deed? Tell that to USC, OSU, or SMU... or plenty of other schools.

This was neglect (at best) at the highest levels of the University. The worst offense we've seen from an NCAA school. It seems clearly to have been done to protect the program from scandal. And now the NCAA protects the program to protect the innocent.

I hope all the better players on the Penn State team leave for other schools and the bad players simply stay in school and do not play. Their scholarships are all safe as long as they make grades.

I look for more punishments to come down once the criminal trials are over. Look for staff to be suspended or banned if they knew or should have known.(bolded by lefty-golfer)

some this should be a bet...if we were sitting in a mens room instead of online we would certainly have a bet on it. Not only is the NCAA wrong in my opinion, there is no chance they will revisit this in a year or two and say "you know what we weren't hard enough on PSU we should add more punishments..." it just isn't going to happen.

in my opinion this all Public relations and the NCAA acting with its typical bullshit.

I am not defending Penn State I honestly don’t care at all but the NCAA is way out of line (as typical) and they are the organization that should be eliminated.

[clubchamp]

Originally Posted by Lefty-Golfer

some this should be a bet...if we were sitting in a mens room instead of online we would certainly have a bet on it. Not only is the NCAA wrong in my opinion, there is no chance they will revisit this in a year or two and say "you know what we weren't hard enough on PSU we should add more punishments..." it just isn't going to happen.

in my opinion this all Public relations and the NCAA acting with its typical bullshit.

I am not defending Penn State I honestly don’t care at all but the NCAA is way out of line (as typical) and they are the organization that should be eliminated.

The flip side is they could do nothing but the would be grilled over that move so it's best to punish PSU. Either way you look at it the NCAA had to do something and PSU can't afford the bad publicity of fighting it. I mean PSU trying to fight it is like saying we didn't do anything wrong plus I'm taking it as the Freeh report is pretty accurate.

[newtogolf]

Exactly, while I'm disgusted by what Paterno and others did to cover up for Sandusky I was against the use of the Death Penalty on PSU.  NCAA fined them $60M, banned them from post-season bowl games for 4 years (including their league share of bowl money) and put them on probation so they could use the Death Penalty in the future.  Vacating the wins from 98 - 2011 targets Paterno's legacy and the teams overall success during those years.  I'd say they got it pretty close to right.

Originally Posted by clubchamp

The flip side is they could do nothing but the would be grilled over that move so it's best to punish PSU. Either way you look at it the NCAA had to do something and PSU can't afford the bad publicity of fighting it. I mean PSU trying to fight it is like saying we didn't do anything wrong plus I'm taking it as the Freeh report is pretty accurate.

[Clambake]

Originally Posted by newtogolf

Exactly, while I'm disgusted by what Paterno and others did to cover up for Sandusky I was against the use of the Death Penalty on PSU.  NCAA fined them $60M, banned them from post-season bowl games for 4 years (including their league share of bowl money) and put them on probation so they could use the Death Penalty in the future.  Vacating the wins from 98 - 2011 targets Paterno's legacy and the teams overall success during those years.  I'd say they got it pretty close to right.

Cal Tech had a seemingly minor violation where student athletes weren't officially registered for class at the start of their athletics; it's simply how their system works where students "shop" classes for the first 3 weeks at the start of the academic year before they're officially registered in specific classes.     Cal Tech discovered this on their own and raised it to the NCAA.   No harm of any kind, but it is against the letter of the NCAA law.

PSU engaged in one of the most heinous scandals involving top leaders in the university and athletic program, engaging in a systematic cover up of child molestation in a blatant flaunting of basic ethics, clear university rules, NCAA bylaws, and even fundamental human decency, with serious criminal implications for a number who were involved.    When faced with mounting evidence, PSU officials repeatedly denied any knowledge and actively worked to cover up the facts.

And so the NCAA, in their infinite wisdom, did the following to both:

Vacated win/loss records:    Cal Tech.....check                PSU.....check

Probation:                            Cal Tech.....3 years              PSU.....4 years

Post-season bowls:             Cal Tech.....denied               PSU.....denied

Scholaships:                        Cal Tech....don't have          PSU....20 scholarships (from 85) cut

Fine:                                    Cal Tech...none                    PSU....$60M, about 1 year's profit from the football team

Comparing the severity and impact of the two universities' violations, it really doesn't feel the NCAA pulled out much of a hammer on PSU.   The penalties of vacating records, post-season ineligibility, probation, etc. are pretty similar in these two cases.   They did levy a fairly large fine on PSU, essentially validating that they really are only about the money.     I'm only hoping criminal charges are forthcoming and very thorough, and the many Sandusky victims are lucky enough to get the most talented litigation attorneys in the land and they take the university leadership and Trustees for everything they've got.