Bunker Theory

[SpannersReady]

I think of a pitch shot having the divot infront of the ball. In the bunker you take a divot behind. Is that right. I was wondering the reason for taking the sand first. From a flat fairway bunker I have hit a mid iron taking no sand. Was that just lucky that I hit it ok?

[luu5]

Originally Posted by SpannersReady

I think of a pitch shot having the divot infront of the ball. In the bunker you take a divot behind. Is that right. I was wondering the reason for taking the sand first. From a flat fairway bunker I have hit a mid iron taking no sand. Was that just lucky that I hit it ok?

Could be lucky, but still ok. If you need loads of distance, like from FW bunker, you do not hit normal bunker shot. Just pick the ball. In the end I do not really see much difference to normal FW shot.

[SpannersReady]

The advice from the video stopped working!

I hit out from a green side bunker and it got out onto the green but came back somehow and back into the bunker. There was no bank!! Double you tee eff! Then it happened again straight away. When I finally got out the shot cleared the green and ended up on the rear bank of another bunker. So I had a 45degree downslope lie from 20 yards with a bunker between me and the pin. I tried to pitch on but it shot out horizontal missed the pin and straight over the green into..... the first bunker. This is on a par three. I ended up with  a sixtuple(?) bogey. I was a bit upset.

Bottom line, it's your fault some how Stretch. You owe me 5 shots.

[yarho]

Originally Posted by iacas

You're completely wrong. The ball is not "compressed" against the ground at all on a properly executed shot of ANY kind. Only a topped shot will "compress the ball against the ground" and we know very obviously that's a bad shot.

I allowed this post to stand - after editing it to remove your super-spammy faux signature - because I wanted to respond very clearly to the above. You're 100% undeniably wrong. It's a fact, not an opinion.

As to the actual topic, the video posted is one of the best. You can also look up the "quickie pitching video" thread - that video applies, you've just gotta do it with a lot more SPEED. I define "pitching" as using the bounce, so a bunker shot is pretty much a standard pitch. You just hit behind the ball slightly (which you can get away with on a standard pitch, just not quite as much).

Wow. I didn't expect so much hostility!

Maybe "compression" is the wrong term to use for a proper pitch shot, but you do want your hands leading the club head through impact and have the divot (if there is one) forward of the ball. Example: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WGA9HofE1Ek . This is the imagery that helps me when I execute this shot.

As far as a bunker solution goes, I agree and already stated that a pitch shot could be used from a bunker, but I recommend taking some sand before hitting the ball (just as you did).

Maybe it was the term "compression" or maybe it was the signature (and I apologize for that), but I don't think my solution was all that different from yours and warranted such an irritated response.

[SpannersReady]

Don't worry people get quite irritated on here. Its only the internet.don't worry. There are lots of nice people on Sandtrap too.

[iacas]

Originally Posted by yarho

Wow. I didn't expect so much hostility!

There was no hostility. I'm sorry you took it that way, but I come from the sciences, where "you're wrong" is in no way personal. Facts aren't personal, or hostile - they're simply facts.

Originally Posted by yarho

Maybe "compression" is the wrong term to use for a proper pitch shot, but you do want your hands leading the club head through impact and have the divot (if there is one) forward of the ball. Example: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WGA9HofE1Ek. This is the imagery that helps me when I execute this shot.

That's not at all what I call a pitch shot - "hands leading" and "taking a divot".

Again, if I define a pitch and chip shot as simply as possible, a pitch shot uses the bounce and a chip uses the leading edge. Hands forward, divot = leading edge.

And what the guy says in the video isn't what he does. Where's his divot? He brushes the ground. He's using a lot more bounce than he implies in the spoken segment.

But in terms of the ball "compressing" against the ground, that remains as wrong as when you said it. It doesn't happen. It might be a good "feel thought" for some people but it's not what happens, and we've had great success teaching pitching the way we've taught it: by using the bounce, letting the clubhead pass your hands (soft elbows, arms, hands) through impact, maximizing margin of error.

[Harmonious]

Hard packed sand:  You definitely DO NOT want to add more bounce by opening the clubface of a sand wedge.  That is a formula for skulling the shot over the green.  What you may want to do is take a club with less bounce, say a 60* wedge for a shot shot or a pitching wedge for a longer shot.  You can open the pitching wedge and not add much bounce.  It works quite well, but you need to practice it.

[Stretch]

Originally Posted by Harmonious

Hard packed sand:  You definitely DO NOT want to add more bounce by opening the clubface of a sand wedge.  That is a formula for skulling the shot over the green.

Absolutely! The practice bunker at our club is scratchier than a hooker's hoo-hah, so you learn to play this shot straight out of the gate. Key is you have to deliberately engage the leading edge. I try and set up the same as any other bunker shot and swing the same, but instead of dropping the hands back to expose the bounce you push them well forward to take it all off. Put the edge into the hardpan just behind the ball and, unless you're playing off concrete, it takes out a neat little slice and you get a low, spinny shot that hops and checks up. It's an bit of an exercise of faith -- you've got to believe you're not going to hit it 30 yards over the back.

And if you get an inch of forward drive, you will. Head still!

[onephenom]

I don't agree with whoever said the hands should flip. That's a good way for inconsistent shots (imho).

Of course, I learned from Phil's short game video. he's got some pretty good methods that have helped me alot. it's pretty much the same as a pitch shot as iacas defined it.

[iacas]

Originally Posted by onephenom

I don't agree with whoever said the hands should flip. That's a good way for inconsistent shots (imho).

Of course, I learned from Phil's short game video. he's got some pretty good methods that have helped me alot. it's pretty much the same as a pitch shot as iacas defined it.

You don't agree with Stan Utley? Or Pete Cowen? Or me? That's fine.

But what Phil does isn't what he says he does, and he's even farther from what he does in tournaments and not when he's trying to demonstrate what he says he does in a video he's making:

[mvmac]

Originally Posted by onephenom

I don't agree with whoever said the hands should flip. That's a good way for inconsistent shots (imho).

Of course, I learned from Phil's short game video. he's got some pretty good methods that have helped me alot. it's pretty much the same as a pitch shot as iacas defined it.

Yes as iacas explained: " A pitch shot uses the bounce and a chip uses the leading edge. Hands forward, divot = leading edge. By using the bounce, letting the clubhead pass your hands (soft elbows, arms, hands) through impact, maximizing margin of error."

Not going to see ANY good bunker players that use the leading edge, the club isn't even designed for it.

Here's one of the best in the world

[maughan67]

Pretty much all you need to know about bunker theory in eight minutes.

Where can I find the video you are referring to, please? Thanks!

[B-Con]

Where can I find the video you are referring to, please? Thanks!

Was the embedded video not showing up? Here's the direct link to YouTube: [url]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eOWgy1AobWc[/url]

[maughan67]

[quote name="maughan67" url="/t/54378/bunker-theory/18#post_664354"] Where can I find the video you are referring to, please? Thanks!

Was the embedded video not showing up? Here's the direct link to YouTube: [url]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eOWgy1AobWc[/url][/quote] Wow. I have struggled with bunker shots recently - too often the ball would not get up high enough to clear high lips, or the club would stick in the sand too much to get enough distance. I watched the video once on Friday night. On Saturday I was in a bunker on the 3rd hole, about 15 yards short of the green, which sloped away from me towards the flag about 20 yards from the front. I tried to apply all the key techniques from the video that I could remember - heels parallel to the line, front foot slightly open, open grip, front knee flexed forward and ahead of the ball, wide shallow swing, punch out the sand around the ball. (The key thing for me was not to hit down into the sand with too steep a swing.) Well... I swung, and the ball lifted gently and high into the air, cleared the lip comfortably, landed exactly where I was aiming, caught the slope and rolled to pin-high, 4 feet to the left. Couldn't believe it. I missed the par putt :-\ (symptomatic of a generally sloppy round) but that has given me real confidence for future bunker shots (assuming it wasn't a total fluke). Great video - very clear, makes sense, and seems to work. Thanks! Matt