Pros vs. Ams.....What's the difference?

[Shorty]

  TitleistWI said:

Originally Posted by TitleistWI

The big difference is shortgame and putting.

And driving.

And fairway woods.

And long irons.

And mid irons.

And short irons.

And bunker play.

And recovery shots.

And mental game.

And course management.

Not really much difference apart from that.

[Kobey]

On the mental game, I think the pros play against the course, while a lot of amateurs play against their competitors.  This was really evident in the finale of the last Big Break.  The two guys were so worried about what the other person was doing that they couldn't concentrate on their own game.

[johnclayton1982]

I've posted this before, so not to be repetitive, but I flirted with pro tennis after playing at university.  I thought I was pretty good.  I then played in a few "pro" tournaments - not even ATP Tour, but the rough equivilent of the Nationwide Tour (at the time, there were a few of these, though, so its not as selective).  I was the best player on my college team senior year (good program) and won my State title a few times.

I got absolutely housed.  Like, totally outclassed.  There is no comparison between a solid, tournament-tested amateur and a pro in tennis and, I imagine, golf.

The pros know how to do it right now.  Not next week, not next year, not next month or next time in practice.  Right now.  Amateurs struggle with that I think.

There are studies on both sides of the argument - some say long game is pros better, some say short game.  I think its neither - I really do think its mental - the pros know how to be there right then.  How to get in the zone and not think because they have that experience.  Its very difficult to be able to develop that skill.  I thought I had a chance to make it but I had no chance.  There is no margin for error.  Zero.

I don't know if the pros are better short or long or all of it, but I think they are really, really, really mentally tough.

[saevel25]

When your fighting for every stroke. Remember, scratch, near zero handicap. Once you start getting to about a 12 HDCP, the fight for every shot is brutal. Its a place that i love to play golf at. Its awesome, competing againts the course for par or better, or what ever i am aiming at. I know i am at the place that i have to fight for every stroke, because just one mistake, one penalty can be the difference. Its a brilliant game, and par is a very sacred boundry in golf. Its just tough, its a tough game.

to me, the difference between scratch and a pro. Its that one more solid swing made. One more best putt made, one more mental mishap that did not happen. Its that one good break. Its just those moments in the game that matter the most.

[The_Pharaoh]

I've just read through this thread and it seems that quite a few members of this forum think there isn't much difference between a PGA Tour pro and a scratch golfer. Too many of you are thinking a scratch golfer shoots level par and the PGA Tour pro a couple of shots less on average. So a putt here or a chip there, perhaps hitting one green more per round?! Hogwash!

A scratch golfer shoots level par at his home course and the worst player on the PGA Tour is a +3 on golf courses set up for PGA Tour events . The moment a scratch golfer steps on a golf course prepared for a PGA Tour event he immediately becomes a 10-12 handicapper (and that's being generous). We are not looking at a putt/chip or two, but AT LEAST 15 shots difference. That is a massive gap. It is a different world . They are playing a different game . And that's comparing your average scratch golfer to the worst player on the PGA Tour. I dread to even think about the difference between a scratch golfer and Luke Donald!

And if you think a scratch golfer's 7 iron is comparable to that of a PGA Tour pro, to name just one club, you need to have a serious rethink or attend a PGA Tour event in person pronto.

[sean_miller]

LOL. No, they're just better at it. It's the same game.

[x129]

Most people think you are over estimating the pros by about 2x.Most people have the pros at around +4-6 depending on some assumptions and estimates of course difficulty. Take it the other way. Do think a pro could show up at the course where our scratch guy is shooting  his 72s and bust out 57s on a regular basis? I doubt it.

And yeah I think Luke Donalds 7 iron is pretty damn close to the one I can buy at the store. I have read interviews where has said that. I am sure he does a bit more quality control (i.e. measuring each loft, lie, and wieghts) but the basic club is the same. If you think the clubs differ, when do the pros start getting these special clubs?  Now there are guys that might modify clubs since they want to obscure that they are not using sponser's gear but the club it self is pretty standard. It has been fitted very well though.

  The_Pharaoh said:

Originally Posted by The_Pharaoh

I've just read through this thread and it seems that quite a few members of this forum think there isn't much difference between a PGA Tour pro and a scratch golfer. Too many of you are thinking a scratch golfer shoots level par and the PGA Tour pro a couple of shots less on average. So a putt here or a chip there, perhaps hitting one green more per round?! Hogwash!

A scratch golfer shoots level par at his home course and the worst player on the PGA Tour is a +3 on golf courses set up for PGA Tour events. The moment a scratch golfer steps on a golf course prepared for a PGA Tour event he immediately becomes a 10-12 handicapper (and that's being generous). We are not looking at a putt/chip or two, but AT LEAST 15 shots difference. That is a massive gap. It is a different world. They are playing a different game. And that's comparing your average scratch golfer to the worst player on the PGA Tour. I dread to even think about the difference between a scratch golfer and Luke Donald!

And if you think a scratch golfer's 7 iron is comparable to that of a PGA Tour pro, to name just one club, you need to have a serious rethink or attend a PGA Tour event in person pronto.

[iacas]

  x129 said:

Originally Posted by x129

And yeah I think Luke Donalds 7 iron is pretty damn close to the one I can buy at the store.

I think he meant the way he hits it, not the actual physical club itself.

[The_Pharaoh]

  x129 said:

Originally Posted by x129

Most people think you are over estimating the pros by about 2x.Most people have the pros at around +4-6 depending on some assumptions and estimates of course difficulty. Take it the other way. Do think a pro could show up at the course where our scratch guy is shooting  his 72s and bust out 57s on a regular basis? I doubt it.

Not 57s, as that requires that the pro hole everything, but low 60s yes. Don't forget the scratch golfer will probably be averaging around 75 at his local track.

I once played a round at my local course with José Rivero (ex-European Tour player and now Álvaro Quirós's coach) prior to the 1992 Spanish Open. He walked straight from the parking lot to the first tee without even warming up. He shot 66 (-6) in pretty windy conditions. He also hadn't played the course for a number of years. It was a month or so before the tournament and he just wanted to get a feel for the place. He went on to shoot 63 in the tournament itself, set up for a European Tour event, and is still the course record.

  iacas said:

Originally Posted by iacas

I think he meant the way he hits it, not the actual physical club itself.

Correct, I meant how the pro hits it.

[saevel25]

Yea, i doubt pro's would go out and shoot low 60's at our home courses, for the following reasons.

1. our courses are overplayed, majority of the time

This leads to greens that are not perfect, and the fairways are not tight as there's. So this will lead to less spin into the greens, and they would make less putts because the greens don't roll as true. If you took a home course and put it at tour quality standards, not changing the design, i bet alot of you will play 1-3 strokes better per round. From playing on tighter fairways, and putting on better greens.

Look at this, Firestone country club has a rating of 71 and a slope of 126. Probably during the tournament when the rough is higher, i would probably think the slow is near 130. The average score, 70.25, just over par. leader averaged 65 per round. But the average pro shot even par on a course that normally has a slope on the home course i play at. I have seen pro events, i personally haven't played with a scratch golfer. But, the stats show that the difference between pro and scratch is just a few shots per round. Like i said, its that battle with the game that makes the difference.

[Harmonious]

  saevel25 said:

Originally Posted by saevel25

Look at this, Firestone country club has a rating of 71 and a slope of 126. Probably during the tournament when the rough is higher, i would probably think the slow is near 130. The average score, 70.25, just over par. leader averaged 65 per round. But the average pro shot even par on a course that normally has a slope on the home course i play at. I have seen pro events, i personally haven't played with a scratch golfer. But, the stats show that the difference between pro and scratch is just a few shots per round. Like i said, its that battle with the game that makes the difference.

According to the Firestone website, and their scorecards online, the South course (I believe that's the course the tournaments are played on) has a rating of 76.1 from the tips. Slope is 134.

[TourSpoon]

  saevel25 said:

Yea, i doubt pro's would go out and shoot low 60's at our home courses, for the following reasons.

1. our courses are overplayed, majority of the time

This leads to greens that are not perfect, and the fairways are not tight as there's. So this will lead to less spin into the greens, and they would make less putts because the greens don't roll as true. If you took a home course and put it at tour quality standards, not changing the design, i bet alot of you will play 1-3 strokes better per round. From playing on tighter fairways, and putting on better greens.

Look at this, Firestone country club has a rating of 71 and a slope of 126. Probably during the tournament when the rough is higher, i would probably think the slow is near 130. The average score, 70.25, just over par. leader averaged 65 per round. But the average pro shot even par on a course that normally has a slope on the home course i play at. I have seen pro events, i personally haven't played with a scratch golfer. But, the stats show that the difference between pro and scratch is just a few shots per round. Like i said, its that battle with the game that makes the difference.

Like I said on page 1, a 10 is closer to scratch than a scratch is to Tour Quality. Watching those guys is one thing but playing with them is real perspective. My friend played the course I worked sight unseen and shot 67. He shot 36 on the front only because I gave him a bad line on a blind tee shot that put him in a lake (I had never seen anyone hit it that far before) and had to drop on a bank behind a tree and scored a double, two more birds and he made that up. He had 5 birdies on the back for a 31. If he would have seen the place before it would have been lights out, not the 67 (7 birdies) he shot after my costing him double. His swing was quiet and effortless and he averaged 280 with a balata. Two years later he was 295 with the new balls. I compare that to a performance from a hopeful pro that I played with the other day who shot 67 on his home course. Great performance, but he doesn't have what the other pro had even though he is a plus. Close but no cigar. The same goes for another guy in my group that can play to a scratch playing once a month. Not even a contest in my mind.

[poser]

People give the pros a little to much credit on ball striking.  I've played with numerous pros and I've seen horrible shots and great shots.  It's not like these guys go out and flush everything and never miss their target.  On the other hand people have already said it they are better in every aspect of the game than a scratch golfer but, putting and trajectory control is the biggest I see.

[BuckeyeNut]

  saevel25 said:

Originally Posted by saevel25

Look at this, Firestone country club has a rating of 71

You're WAAAY off.....

The tourney course is a 7400yd par 70 with a 75.1CR....... this isn't super high by tour standards, but it's still rated 5.1 higher than course par of 70 which=a very tough course.

[The_Pharaoh]

  saevel25 said:

Originally Posted by saevel25

So this will lead to less spin into the greens, and they would make less putts because the greens don't roll as true. If you took a home course and put it at tour quality standards, not changing the design, i bet alot of you will play 1-3 strokes better per round. From playing on tighter fairways, and putting on better greens.

I agree with you that after a period of adjustment, we would putt better on tour quality greens, however what amazed me with Rivero was his ability to read the situation of the greens in the space of one hole. He realised on the first hole that the greens were soft and slower than what he is used to and adjusted accordingly. He didn't need spin to stop the ball. He just fired at the pins as if he was throwing darts, leaving himself fairly short birdie putts which he hit firmer with less break. He may have missed one putt due to the conditions of the greens, but not more.

  saevel25 said:

Originally Posted by saevel25

I have seen pro events, i personally haven't played with a scratch golfer. But, the stats show that the difference between pro and scratch is just a few shots per round.

I understand it is not easy to play with a PGA Tour standard player, but surely a scratch golfer at your local club wouldn't mind playing with you. When I say scratch golfer, I am talking 0.0, not +3 or +4. Could you show us these stats as I think they are wrong? You are underestimating the tour player and overestimating the scratch golfer imho.

[TourSpoon]

  The_Pharaoh said:

Originally Posted by The_Pharaoh

I agree with you that after a period of adjustment, we would putt better on tour quality greens, however what amazed me with Rivero was his ability to read the situation of the greens in the space of one hole. He realised on the first hole that the greens were soft and slower than what he is used to and adjusted accordingly. He didn't need spin to stop the ball. He just fired at the pins as if he was throwing darts, leaving himself fairly short birdie putts which he hit firmer with less break. He may have missed one putt due to the conditions of the greens, but not more.

Same experience here, except there were hardly any missed putts because he was able to warm up on the practice greens.

The other things that amazed me was the trajectory control on all shots, the ability to hit under the wind, saving par off the greens, and the shots into the greens working the ball from the fat to the pin.  He was playing a different game.

[x129]

Those scores would put the pro ~7-8 strokes better than the scratch guy (obviously a lot of assumptions including the one that a guy shooting a course record is doing some where around 1 in 1000 round) which is a about what I said. I am too lazy to do it but it might be more instructional to look at the nationwide tour instead of the PGA. My impression is that they are a bit closer to what the a normal club would be. The top nationwide guys are about the same as midlevel pro (based on results the following year). Most of the course are about a 75 and most tournaments are won around -15 or so (this varies quite a bit ) which again would suggest ~7=8 strokes. Obviously that is a boat load of strokes but it is a lot less than 15.

Pros hit the same shots as a good amateur shot in my experience. I play with a guy that shoots int he low 80s (was low single back when he played a ton in HS but now gets out a couple times a month at best). If you took 100 swings of his and a 100 swings of a pro, the best 5 or so would be indistinguishable without going to slow motion. He is smooth and has enough clubhead speed to get that 7 iron out 180+ (I have seen 200 on the course but I sure as heck didn't notice the exact wind and slope) and you get the whole different sound than the rest of us hackers. The difference is the rest of the shots drop off much quicker where his worst 10 shots are probably are worse than the pros worst 10 shots of the year. It is tempting to say that if he practiced 24/7 he could gain that consistency but that isn't really true. People have limits and as you approach them improvement gets really hard.

Now this guy is an exception. There are lot of good scorers with horrid  but consistant swings. The practice/play 4x+ a week and get around the course making lots of bogeys, pars and birdies and you can't figure out how. The is the problem of grouping large people together.  The average scratch guy might lose 4 strokes to long game, 2 to course mangment, 2 short game and 2 on the green. But there will also be the guy that loses 1 to long game, 1 to to course managment, 3to short game, and 4 on the green. To improve you need to figure out what boat your in not what the average guy is in.

  The_Pharaoh said:

Originally Posted by The_Pharaoh

Not 57s, as that requires that the pro hole everything, but low 60s yes. Don't forget the scratch golfer will probably be averaging around 75 at his local track.

I once played a round at my local course with José Rivero (ex-European Tour player and now Álvaro Quirós's coach) prior to the 1992 Spanish Open. He walked straight from the parking lot to the first tee without even warming up. He shot 66 (-6) in pretty windy conditions. He also hadn't played the course for a number of years. It was a month or so before the tournament and he just wanted to get a feel for the place. He went on to shoot 63 in the tournament itself, set up for a European Tour event, and is still the course record.

Correct, I meant how the pro hits it.

[The_Pharaoh]

  x129 said:

Originally Posted by x129

I am too lazy to do it but it might be more instructional to look at the nationwide tour instead of the PGA. My impression is that they are a bit closer to what the a normal club would be. Obviously that is a boat load of strokes but it is a lot less than 15.

Hey, no changing the goalposts on me! My 15-shot argument was the scratch golfer playing on the PGA Tour, not the other way around. The scratch golfer is not used to playing his normal game under such conditions and I'm not just talking about the course. You have to take into account the buzz (nerves, crowds, cameras etc.) surrounding a PGA Tour event, you cannot compare it to a little tournament at your local club.

Just so we are comparing oranges to oranges, I am talking about scratch golfers (proper 0.0 handicappers that average around 74-75 over their last 20 rounds, because there different kinds of 0.0 handicappers!) and PGA Tour pros capable of keeping their tour card.