Smart Phone GPS Now Not Allowed?

[mymizunosrock]

Originally Posted by PARider

Interesting that the USGA now offers an iPhone app edition of the Rules of Golf. Wonder if the right hand knew what the left hand was doing on that one?!

Thats piss funny...I have the Android version, although, its still legal for me to use my phone to access it.

[Ignorant]

Originally Posted by x129

Before hand held GPS's existed they weren't allowed either so I assume you were against legalizing them for certain rounds also?  Remember this ban isn't really just smart phones. It is any phone that can access the web (i.e. just about anything built in the past 10 years) to look at a weather report. If you answer a call during a round with that phone, you have technically broken the rules now. So if your losing your club championship, be sure to have a friend place a call to the leader and see if you can get him DQed.

I wonder where this ban of phones arises. In 2009 USGA and R&A; published this guideline ( http://www.usga.org/news.aspx?id=54238 ) and it says:

3.     Multi-functional devices such as mobile phones, PDAs, etc (i.e., devices that are primarily communication devices, but which may have other potential uses) may be used as follows:

·         The device may be used for any non-golfing purpose (e.g., as a communication tool to phone, text or email), subject to any club/course regulations and the rules on accessing advice-related matters – see Decision 14-3/16.

So making the leader to answer his phone is no breach of Rules from his side, unless there is a Condition of Competition in force forbidding use of phones during the competition round.

[Ignorant]

Originally Posted by mymizunosrock

Quote:

Originally Posted by PARider

Interesting that the USGA now offers an iPhone app edition of the Rules of Golf. Wonder if the right hand knew what the left hand was doing on that one?!

Thats piss funny...I have the Android version, although, its still legal for me to use my phone to access it.

It seems to me that people are fluently mixing up a smart phone and a distance measuring device.

Now, a smart phone with no GPS type distance measuring application or such may be used freely for eg. looking up a Rule or a Decision from a pre-installed application, keeping score, checking info from one's previous rounds, etc, that is, any information that existed before one's round commenced. However, as soon as there is a GPS installed in the phone then, and only then this phone may become illegal to use should it contain non-conforming features such as compass, thermometer, spirit level, etc.

[iacas]

Originally Posted by boogielicious

What we don't seem to agree on is the usefulness of apps or the Weather Channel for golf.  I think they are not useful at all because they are not telling you what is happening where you are exactly, at the time you need it.  They are telling you the weather someplace else at some earlier time.  To rely on it on a Smartphone would be a waste of time.

I'm not going to agree with you on that. I've made a few posts, one in particular with specific details, that demonstrate why I do not believe it to be a waste of time and that it's often quite useful information to know the wind speed and direction. As I said then, I'll often check just before my round begins. And pros often have compasses marked on each hole in their yardage book partly for this reason as well.

Yes, I know, I've posted again, but really I'm just saying "go back to my earlier posts and read those" please. :)

[x129]

The 2009 ruling no longer applies.  See the the 2012 update which is why this thread exists. Under the old rules you could use your smart phone GPS if there was a weather app (you couldn't look at it). Under the new rules it is a no no. As I said I have seen 2 different rules interpertations about if just using the phone is breach now a days. Given that just carrying other tools to measure wind/temperature is considered a breach even if you don't use them, I could see why just carrying your iphone in your bag gets you DQed. The argument the other way is the rule apply to instruments used in golf and if you don't use the phone for golf purposes (i.e. distance or score cards) you are allowed to carry it. I am sure it will be clarified eventually.

Originally Posted by Ignorant

I wonder where this ban of phones arises. In 2009 USGA and R&A; published this guideline (http://www.usga.org/news.aspx?id=54238) and it says:

3.     Multi-functional devices such as mobile phones, PDAs, etc (i.e., devices that are primarily communication devices, but which may have other potential uses) may be used as follows:

·         The device may be used for any non-golfing purpose (e.g., as a communication tool to phone, text or email), subject to any club/course regulations and the rules on accessing advice-related matters – see Decision 14-3/16.

So making the leader to answer his phone is no breach of Rules from his side, unless there is a Condition of Competition in force forbidding use of phones during the competition round.

[Ignorant]

Originally Posted by x129

The 2009 ruling no longer applies.  See the the 2012 update which is why this thread exists.

Cannot find it, can you give a link?

[newtogolf]

The argument that current weather apps aren't very useful is lacking given I highly doubt anyone has evaluated every weather app on every platform to determine if the data they provide could be considered an advantage to a golfer.  Even if we could agree that the current weather apps wouldn't provide an advantage that's not to say a new app tomorrow wouldn't.   What's to prevent someone from developing an app that receives live data from a weather balloon that is launched prior to a match?

I think the USGA ruling is trying to make the rule simple by outlawing Smartphones overall rather than attempt to target specific models or apps that would be considered a rules violation.

[x129]

Have you tried reading the very first post in this thread?

Originally Posted by Ignorant

Cannot find it, can you give a link?

[turtleback]

Originally Posted by Ignorant

It seems to me that people are fluently mixing up a smart phone and a distance measuring device.

Now, a smart phone with no GPS type distance measuring application or such may be used freely for eg. looking up a Rule or a Decision from a pre-installed application, keeping score, checking info from one's previous rounds, etc, that is, any information that existed before one's round commenced. However, as soon as there is a GPS installed in the phone then, and only then this phone may become illegal to use should it contain non-conforming features such as compass, thermometer, spirit level, etc.

How could it possibly make sense to disallow a smartphone with a GPS app installed because a separate weather app exists on the phone, but allow a smartphone that does NOT have a GPS app installed but has exactly the same weather app as the first phone?  It is the weather app that is the problem, in the USGA's view.  Is someone without a GPS app more trustworthy to not look at the weather information than someone WITH a GPS app?  Based on the (il)logic of the USGA ruling I see no way they can even allow the carrying of any phone on the golfcourse with a weather app.

Separate question:  Is it illegal to listen to the radio while playing?  What if a weather report comes on, is that a DQ?

[newtogolf]

The use of headphones or earplugs to eliminate noise or other distractions is prohibited under Rule 14-3.

Decision 14-3/16 covers listening to music or some other broadcast during a round. Here is the text of that Decision:

Rule 14-3a states that a player may not use any artificial device or unusual equipment that “might assist him making a stroke or in his play.” Listening to music or a broadcast while making a stroke or for a prolonged period might assist the player in his play, for example, by eliminating distractions or promoting a good tempo. Therefore, the use of an artificial device to listen to music or a broadcast, whether or not through headphones, while making a stroke or for a prolonged period of time during a stipulate round is a breach of Rule 14-3. However, it would not be a breach of Rule 14-3 for a player to listen to a device briefly, for example, to obtain the results of another sporting event or traffic information, while walking between the putting green of one hole and the teeing ground of another hole.

There is no restriction on listening to music or other broadcasts while practicing (whether on the practice ground or on the golf course, and whether by oneself or while playing with others), although club rules and disciplinary codes could apply in such circumstances.

Originally Posted by turtleback

Separate question:  Is it illegal to listen to the radio while playing?  What if a weather report comes on, is that a DQ?

[newtogolf]

5. Distance-Measuring Devices (Rule 14-3 )

During a stipulated round , the use of any distance measuring device is not permitted unless the Committee has introduced a Local Rule to that effect (see Note to Rule 14-3 and Appendix I; Part B; Section 9).

Even when the Local Rule is in effect, the device must be limited to measuring distance only. Features that would render use of the device contrary to the Local Rule include, but are not limited to:

• the gauging or measuring of slope;

• the gauging or measuring of other conditions that might affect play (e.g., wind speed or direction, or other climate-based information such as temperature, humidity, etc.);

• recommendations that might assist the player in making a stroke or in his play (e.g., club selection, type of shot to be played, green reading or any other advice related matter); or

• calculating the effective distance between two points based on slope or other conditions affecting shot distance.

Such non-conforming features render use of the device contrary to the Rules , irrespective of whether or not:

• the features can be switched off or disengaged; and

• the features are switched off or disengaged.

A multi-functional device, such as a smartphone or PDA, may be used as a distance measuring device provided it contains a distance measuring application that meets all of the above limitations (i.e., it must measure distance only). In addition, when the distance measuring application is being used, there must be no other features or applications installed on the device that, if used, would be in breach of the Rules , whether or not they are actually used.

Originally Posted by Ignorant

Cannot find it, can you give a link?

[turtleback]

Originally Posted by newtogolf

The use of headphones or earplugs to eliminate noise or other distractions is prohibited under Rule 14-3.

Decision 14-3/16 covers listening to music or some other broadcast during a round. Here is the text of that Decision:

Rule 14-3a states that a player may not use any artificial device or unusual equipment that “might assist him making a stroke or in his play.” Listening to music or a broadcast while making a stroke or for a prolonged period might assist the player in his play, for example, by eliminating distractions or promoting a good tempo. Therefore, the use of an artificial device to listen to music or a broadcast, whether or not through headphones, while making a stroke or for a prolonged period of time during a stipulate round is a breach of Rule 14-3. However, it would not be a breach of Rule 14-3 for a player to listen to a device briefly, for example, to obtain the results of another sporting event or traffic information, while walking between the putting green of one hole and the teeing ground of another hole.

There is no restriction on listening to music or other broadcasts while practicing (whether on the practice ground or on the golf course, and whether by oneself or while playing with others), although club rules and disciplinary codes could apply in such circumstances.

What if the traffic report threw in a weather report?

[Ignorant]

Originally Posted by turtleback

How could it possibly make sense to disallow a smartphone with a GPS app installed because a separate weather app exists on the phone, but allow a smartphone that does NOT have a GPS app installed but has exactly the same weather app as the first phone?  It is the weather app that is the problem, in the USGA's view.  Is someone without a GPS app more trustworthy to not look at the weather information than someone WITH a GPS app?  Based on the (il)logic of the USGA ruling I see no way they can even allow the carrying of any phone on the golfcourse with a weather app.

Once again: any phone may be used for it's normal purposes, that is calling and sending/receiving SMS's. Use of illegal apps such as compass, weather app, etc. are and have been banned already in the past by Rule 14-3. More difficult question is may a phone that contains a GPS distance measuring app be used if it contains ANY illegal app. For this question I have not found a definitive answer.

Edit: The way I read Note to Rule 14-3 and Appendix I; Part B; Section 9 this 'ban' of smartphones is only limited to use of distance measuring applications when such phone contains non-conforming features. This means that use of any phone for calling etc. is perfectly allowed by the Rules regardless which apps it contains. A mere idea of not being able to call for a referee with a smartphone is bizarre and certainly is not what this new amendment of R14-3 is about.

[LuciusWooding]

The rules as written say absolutely not, as long as you use the GPS app. It can be used if it contains nothing illegal, but the point of the thread is that many devices have apps built into the OS that can't be disabled, even though the golfer might want to disable them.

14-3-5

"A multi-functional device, such as a smartphone or PDA, may be used as a distance measuring device provided it contains a distance measuring application that meets all of the above limitations (i.e., it must measure distance only). In addition, when the distance measuring application is being used , there must be no other features or applications installed on the device that, if used, would be in breach of the Rules , whether or not they are actually used."

If the weather app is built into the OS, I'd say it makes the device illegal. However, the spirit of the rule, combined with the fact that the USGA are likely not very tech savvy, means they probably didn't intend to ban them outright. I'd say, though, that it'll be a cold day in hell that they go back on their word. The rule is a pretty logical conclusion based on the established rules, and they'd have to make a pretty big exception. They probably will not, since smartphones and tradition don't mix.

When the USGA addresses the software of mobile devices, I'd take it with a grain of salt as far as casual rounds, but don't expect to see tourney players getting leniency. As bolded in the quote, however, the phone is still legal when used in a non-rangefinder way, provided no illegal apps are used. It seems that if the weather is present on the lock screen, however, the device is taboo unless left off.

[Ignorant]

Originally Posted by LuciusWooding

If the weather app is built into the OS, I'd say it makes the device illegal.

No, it does not. It is non-conforming ONLY if there is a distance measuring app and this app is actually used. You are perfectly free to use that device for scoring, statistics, etc. This is very clearly said in the text you yourself quoted and even bolded the correct sentences to support what I just wrote.

Edit:

Originally Posted by LuciusWooding

As bolded in the quote, however, the phone is still legal when used in a non-rangefinder way, provided no illegal apps are used. It seems that if the weather is present on the lock screen, however, the device is taboo unless left off.

Sorry, you seem to write more or less the same thing there later, missed that earlier. I do disagree with your last sentence, though. Any non-conforming app in the phone does not make it illegal to be used for the purposes I already mentioned, as illogical it may sound. For this very reason I would like the ruling bodies to reftesh their stand, although I believe my wish is in vain...

[LuciusWooding]

If the Operating system of the device contains non-conforming elements, it's non conforming. You can't use a device one way or the other without the operating system, and as others have pointed out, weather apps are essentially hard wired into the operating system of devices such as the iPhone and cannot be deleted by the user. They can be purposely not used, but they are still an integral part of the device and therefore the device cannot be used under the rules, even if an otherwise conforming app is used.

[zeg]

Originally Posted by LuciusWooding

If the Operating system of the device contains non-conforming elements, it's non conforming. You can't use a device one way or the other without the operating system, and as others have pointed out, weather apps are essentially hard wired into the operating system of devices such as the iPhone and cannot be deleted by the user. They can be purposely not used, but they are still an integral part of the device and therefore the device cannot be used under the rules, even if an otherwise conforming app is used.

*IF* that app is a distance measuring app. If you are not actually *using* the distance measuring app, none of that language applies.

[jwrussell]

Originally Posted by zeg

Also, in answer to your question "what other rule practically invites such pervasive ignoring?"  That one's easy: stroke and distance for a lost ball. :-)

Hah!  I was thinking the exact same thing.