Extreme Greens

[Thunderfox]

I am working on a project for my Architecture Studio, we are researching/designing golf course. I don't know to much about golf course. So I hope some one on here can help me. I am trying to find examples of greens that take the rules of what a green can have done to it to the extreme. For example I was told there are greens that in the center are flat but then around the edge taper down so your ball rolls away. Or they are uneven. Something like that. Im not really looking for greens that are odd shaped.

Thanks.

[saevel25]

I think for most golfers the most unfair thing is to have an up hill putt that will go up and then roll back down to you. Now you probably can study this, there is a set friction between the golf ball and green, and you can easily get the incline for a certain slope and know if a green will have this issue. But i hate when greens do this. Another would be if you are above the hole, on a tier and no matter what you do, your ball is going to end up off the green. So i would say severe tiers, and severe slopes. I don't mind ungulations, there will always be fair spots on the green, but when the whole green acts againts the golfer, that is wrong. I rarely have come across this situation.

Now number 7 on the course i pay at, is severely slanted, two tier green. But thats fine, if they put the pin up top and your down below, if you don't get up the slope, thats your fault. the ball can stay up on the top tier if you make an effort to hit the ball.

But, alot of these things can be fixed by a greens keepers, making sure pins are in a fair stop, or if the green does get unfair, tone down how far you cut it compared the other greens. Maybe you can get away with a slower green.

[Thunderfox]

An examples of these kind of situations, actual course and hole numbers??

[sean_miller]

Numbers 1, 2, and 4 at the River Bend Mini Links. Red Deer, AB

[Domenic]

I thought this baby up when I was younger..........wait for it.........................a stream that cuts through the green. Let's say the green is 30 ft. vertically, and horizontally, roughly. The stream (4 inches wide) cuts through at about 10 ft. up from the apron diagonally. Now shape it so that behind the stream it slopes backwards, and in front of it, its pretty flat, sloping down and left. That really puts a big emphasis on a nice iron shot. If you miss short, you gotta chip it over.

[jamo]

For example I was told there are greens that in the center are flat but then around the edge taper down so your ball rolls away. Or they are uneven. Something like that. Im not really looking for greens that are odd shaped. Thanks.

Those are usually referred to as dome-shaped greens, common among Donald Ross-designed greens, especially at Pinehurst #2. Another extreme design is the 16th hole at TPC San Antonio, which has a sand trap in the middle of the green. The 16th at Augusta National is also a bit extreme, because during some rounds you rarely see players land the ball anywhere near the hole, intentionally.

[saevel25]

Chippewa, near Massillon Ohio, Holes 15 & 16

[Leftygolfer]

Number 10 Kenton County Willows.  It has so much slope it isn't fair.  The ball will roll back to your feet.

[jamo]

I guess you could also include The Postage Stamp, which is number 8 at Royal Troon Golf Club, because it's so small, as well as 17 at TPC Sawgrass because it's completely surrounded by water and the 14th at Coeur d'Alene because it floats.

[sabram]

The best example I can think of are the greens on Old Macdonald at Bandon Dunes. They are 18 of the largest, most undulating and most intersting greens in the world. Including several "false fronted" greens, a Biarritz (#8) , a punchbowl  (#18) and more. There is a new DVD about the design and construction of the course that you may find interesting. Here's a link to the DVD http://www.bandondunesgolf.com/products/old_macdonald_dvd/1144.php?page_id=10

Edit: For some reason all the photos are not appearing. I'll try to fix later

#8 "Biarritz" green at Old Mac - a Biaritz green has a swale that crosses the green of the green

#12 at Old Mac "Redan" - Check out the drop offs at the front and right

[

#14 green at Old Mac

Old Mac #16 green - see the caddy at the front right corner of the green to get a sense of how large it is - and it is not nearly the largest at Old Mac

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Old Mac - a portion of #17 green

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Old Mac #18 - see the group putting on the punchbowl at the right hand side of the green. The wide green funnels evrything from the upper left down

[WUTiger]

Two things to consider:

• Some greens are built in an unfair manner so that almost no shot will hold. Sometimes this occurs due to an error in grading the green's soil base during construction. Another problem: Some classic courses planted highly sloped greens using new-age turf grass with super-fine blades. The result: any putt from the back half of the green will roll off the front half and back to the fairway because the wispy new blades offer no resistance to the ball. Solution: go back to coarser turf grass, or redo the greens to reduce the slope. (Like, let's ruin a classic)
• Some greens have lots of curves or banks to them, but also have some rather flat strips here and there where you can put the cup. As long as the greenskeeper cuts the cups in a relatively flat area (USGA greenskeeping guidelines specify this), the green will be challenging but fair. But if the greenskeeper cuts the cup on an upslope, or at the top of a ridge between two nodes of the green, then a challenging hole is made unfair for that day.

* Sometimes the greenskeeper will cut a couple of weird cup positions during a scramble tournament, because

several people get to can figure out the actual slope of the putt. But doing so for individual play in unfair.

* At some short, nine-hole courses, the greenskeeper will put in a couple of ridiculous pin positions each day to

"protect par." However, you're not protecting par in a fair manner when a cliff-hanging cup position

causes most players to get a double bogey on a 300-yard par 4.

[act0fgod]

In addition to those already mentioned a historic green no longer in existence because it was a bit to extreme is the 18th at Sitwell Park seen below.

[sean_miller]

Originally Posted by act0fgod

In addition to those already mentioned a historic green no longer in existence because it was a bit to extreme is the 18th at Sitwell Park seen below.

Was that course name meant to be ironic?

[RC]

Just study the contours at Augusta National and Pine Valley (NJ)... These greens are the definition of great contouring.

[OCdude12]

Pasatiempo Golf Club in Santa Cruz is also a course with greens that will make you scratch your head if you're not putting yourself in the correct places on your approach shots.  Awesome golf course, but very demanding on the greens.  Also a MacKenzie design.

There's also a course close by to where I grew up in the bay area, Peacock Gap, that redid their greens a few years back and turned most of the green complexes into miniature golf.  Here's a link with some pictures and explanations of the changes they made.  You can see in a few of the pictures some extreme examples of how an architect can completely f*** up a course by the design of the greens.  Before, the course had greens that weren't in the best shape but were standard with different tiers and subtle breaks, then the new guy came in and changed it for the worse.  Maybe he took some LSD before drawing up the designs or never played a round of golf in his life before, that is the only explanation for how I can see someone thinking the work they did was for the better.

http://golfclubatlas.com/forum/index.php?topic=34336.0