New Seasons of The Haney Project and Feherty Discussion Thread

[x129]

If your chunking 70%, your release doesn't matter a whole lot.  The point I was making is that there are guys playing the best golf with the release Hank suggests. Objecting to it then more of a personal preference things.  But most pros don't use it either for the reasons you list. Most pros are hookers and are doing everything possible not to. For them it is a really bad release.

I am sorry if I misunderstood your initial reply. I took it as a "what" question and not a "why" one. The what explanation is easy, the why is a bit more complex. The traditional answer is that it is antislice and gets you more distance which are both things high handicap amateurs want. Personally I hook like mad every time I try so I am not a big fan.  I don't really know what that loop thing is about but i am guessing it is more to encourage an inside approach and that it is more of a feel than real thing in an attempt to fix an OTT swing. But that is a guess. Hank never really goes into details of why he does anything. It isn't a teaching show. It is an entertainment one. Personally I don't think any of these guys want to be good golfers. If they did they would have been working with a coach for years now. They have the cash and I am guessing could find the time. Since they haven't I have to think they just want some TV time.

I am not sure what video you saw but the one I saw on the DPlane I though was right on but I haven't seen in about 6 months so I could have it confused with another teacher.  Either way it really has nothing to do with the release one. I just listed it in case you wanted more info on this release.  And if you throw away every guy who says one thing you disagree with, you are throwing away a lot of good advice. For example Faldo doesn't know the ball flight laws as far as I can tell. He does know a lot about golf though and I thought his golf channel shows and book had some decent thinking points. I just don't try to hit a draw the way he describes. YMMV.

  deronsizemore said:

Originally Posted by deronsizemore

There's a BIG difference between a tour pro who spends all day every day hitting balls and perfecting the timing of their swing and a guy who probably can't break 100 and tops/chunks like 70% of their shots.

I'm not saying you can't play good golf doing it, I'm just saying it's not the most consistent way to do it (especially with that looptie-loop Haney has everyone do). I mean, Phil isn't exactly the model of consistency either. When his timing is off, he'll hit it all over the place.

I don't know much about the "mysmartgolf guy" but I did watch his ball flight video and he doesn't understand why the ball curves, so I doubt I want to listen to much else he has to say.

[iacas]

  x129 said:

Originally Posted by x129

If your chunking 70%, your release doesn't matter a whole lot.  The point I was making is that there are guys playing the best golf with the release Hank suggests. Objecting to it then more of a personal preference things.  But most pros don't use it either for the reasons you list. Most pros are hookers and are doing everything possible not to. For them it is a really bad release.

The problem with a release that has a lot of roll in it is two-fold: not only does it affect the clubface angle, but it affects the sweetspot path as well.

We've taught players who, from their alignments at A6, should be hitting out at the golf ball (some a little more than desired) yet, because of the rapid speed with which they rolled the clubface, they actually managed to send the path LEFT in that teeny fraction of a second between A6 and A7. This, as you can imagine, is incredibly difficult to time with any regularity, particularly as ball position moves with different clubs. Many times they'd hit pulls and pull-cuts with the driver or big pushes and over-draws with the shorter clubs. Their shot cone becomes unnecessarily wide and they are relying on their hands to time something to within half a degree or so on a clubhead moving 100 MPH for 40 milliseconds (or whatever). It's not easy.

So I generally don't care for Hank Haney's release, for virtually any player. There's a lot of timing in the golf swing as it is - adding more (to a golfer at any level) just strikes me as unnecessary.

P.S. In TGM terms, I'd vote "Angled Hinging > Horizontal Hinging" (and Vertical Hinging isn't really used in the full stroke at all).

[newtogolf]

It's a bit off topic, but can you describe the other releases you would suggest over the roll.  My current instructor has me doing a form of it, and it's killing me at the range.  When I hit it right, I hit it straight and further than ever, but that's only about 25% of the time, the rest are short weak fades and a thinned hooks.  He's fixed a lot of problems in my swing from the previous instructor, but the release has me concerned.

  iacas said:

Originally Posted by iacas

The problem with a release that has a lot of roll in it is two-fold: not only does it affect the clubface angle, but it affects the sweetspot path as well.

We've taught players who, from their alignments at A6, should be hitting out at the golf ball (some a little more than desired) yet, because of the rapid speed with which they rolled the clubface, they actually managed to send the path LEFT in that teeny fraction of a second between A6 and A7. This, as you can imagine, is incredibly difficult to time with any regularity, particularly as ball position moves with different clubs. Many times they'd hit pulls and pull-cuts with the driver or big pushes and over-draws with the shorter clubs. Their shot cone becomes unnecessarily wide and they are relying on their hands to time something to within half a degree or so on a clubhead moving 100 MPH for 40 milliseconds (or whatever). It's not easy.

So I generally don't care for Hank Haney's release, for virtually any player. There's a lot of timing in the golf swing as it is - adding more (to a golfer at any level) just strikes me as unnecessary.

P.S. In TGM terms, I'd vote "Angled Hinging > Horizontal Hinging" (and Vertical Hinging isn't really used in the full stroke at all).

[iacas]

  newtogolf said:

Originally Posted by newtogolf

It's a bit off topic, but can you describe the other releases you would suggest over the roll.  My current instructor has me doing a form of it, and it's killing me at the range.  When I hit it right, I hit it straight and further than ever, but that's only about 25% of the time, the rest are short weak fades and a thinned hooks.  He's fixed a lot of problems in my swing from the previous instructor, but the release has me concerned.

Uhm, less roll. :)

This video isn't exactly specific to it, but it's more in line with the release I prefer. See also "angled hinging."

Good gosh that video is old. Steve is in it! We filmed that baby in 2009!

[deronsizemore]

  x129 said:

Originally Posted by x129

If your chunking 70%, your release doesn't matter a whole lot.  The point I was making is that there are guys playing the best golf with the release Hank suggests. Objecting to it then more of a personal preference things.  But most pros don't use it either for the reasons you list. Most pros are hookers and are doing everything possible not to. For them it is a really bad release.

I am sorry if I misunderstood your initial reply. I took it as a "what" question and not a "why" one. The what explanation is easy, the why is a bit more complex. The traditional answer is that it is antislice and gets you more distance which are both things high handicap amateurs want. Personally I hook like mad every time I try so I am not a big fan.  I don't really know what that loop thing is about but i am guessing it is more to encourage an inside approach and that it is more of a feel than real thing in an attempt to fix an OTT swing. But that is a guess. Hank never really goes into details of why he does anything. It isn't a teaching show. It is an entertainment one. Personally I don't think any of these guys want to be good golfers. If they did they would have been working with a coach for years now. They have the cash and I am guessing could find the time. Since they haven't I have to think they just want some TV time.

I am not sure what video you saw but the one I saw on the DPlane I though was right on but I haven't seen in about 6 months so I could have it confused with another teacher.  Either way it really has nothing to do with the release one. I just listed it in case you wanted more info on this release.  And if you throw away every guy who says one thing you disagree with, you are throwing away a lot of good advice. For example Faldo doesn't know the ball flight laws as far as I can tell. He does know a lot about golf though and I thought his golf channel shows and book had some decent thinking points. I just don't try to hit a draw the way he describes. YMMV.

The thing is, when you're topping/chunking a lot of shots like Adam Levin does on that show, the "release" Haney has them do can contribute to that. What happens with a lot of people when they try to release the club is that they end up losing their flying wedges and casting which contributes to hitting tops and chunks.

Yeah, the loop that Haney has people do is to get them swinging from the inside. I just don't see how anyone could ever be consistent doing that. But to each their own.

I concede that just because I (or anyone else) disagrees, it doesn't make a piece of advice bad. In this case though, with the ball flight, it's not just that I disagree and it's a something that's debatable. I disagree because it's incorrect and has been proven to be incorrect. Maybe I'm in the minority, but if someone is around the game and teaches for a living yet they don't know why the ball curves, it's at that point that they lose my attention regardless of what else they may know about the swing. It's my opinion that if someone doesn't know why the ball curves, then they're going to have a heck of a time diagnosing and fixing any issues that I have. Just my .02.

[x129]

From what I can remember Adam had more posture  and excessive motion type issues but I didn't pay that much attention.  I really don't want to defend Haney (his is not the swing I would be pushing) but your coach never had you exaggerate a move when trying to groove a new feeling? Without a lot more context it is hard to figure out what exactly Haney is doing. Personally i would question more the idea of a beginner going out and spending time on the driver.  Get him hitting a 6 iron somewhat consistantly and work on chipping and putting.  I don't know how long the show is (or how many total hours Hank spends with them) but the goal should be to get him in the 90-100 range.  A 160 yard 6 iron and not flubbing chip shots seems like his best chance to me and doing that in 3 months is pretty good for a lot of people. If he is doing those things well after 2 months throw in the driver. Right now it is just going to frustrate him and take time away from working on other things so he is likely to end up as a guy who alternates hitting the driver 250 and 250 with a 150 yard slice and then blades his chip over the green.

As far as not knowing the ball flight laws, yeah it is  always disappointing to hear. But I wouldn't turn down a lesson from Butch Harmon even if he hasn't updated his ball flight views. As far as I know Josh's ball flight laws are right but I am judging that from one D-Plane video.  I haven't the one with bad laws but that sure doesn't mean it isn't out there. I haven't seen all of his videos but when I was searching for release videos a couple of weeks ago, I thought his was one of the clearest.

And for a show specific complaint, is anyone else annoyed that they haven't stated the rules of the competition? Is it strictly who drops their handicap the most. Or even tell us how long the show is and how many lessons do these guys get? Personally I think they don't get anywhere near enough time to make a difference. Lets see them work with Hank every other day for a couple of hours for a month and see what the results are.  I get the feeling that they see him once a month for a total of like 5 lessons.

  deronsizemore said:

Originally Posted by deronsizemore

The thing is, when you're topping/chunking a lot of shots like Adam Levin does on that show, the "release" Haney has them do can contribute to that. What happens with a lot of people when they try to release the club is that they end up losing their flying wedges and casting which contributes to hitting tops and chunks.

Yeah, the loop that Haney has people do is to get them swinging from the inside. I just don't see how anyone could ever be consistent doing that. But to each their own.

I concede that just because I (or anyone else) disagrees, it doesn't make a piece of advice bad. In this case though, with the ball flight, it's not just that I disagree and it's a something that's debatable. I disagree because it's incorrect and has been proven to be incorrect. Maybe I'm in the minority, but if someone is around the game and teaches for a living yet they don't know why the ball curves, it's at that point that they lose my attention regardless of what else they may know about the swing. It's my opinion that if someone doesn't know why the ball curves, then they're going to have a heck of a time diagnosing and fixing any issues that I have. Just my .02.

[deronsizemore]

  x129 said:

Originally Posted by x129

From what I can remember Adam had more posture  and excessive motion type issues but I didn't pay that much attention.  I really don't want to defend Haney (his is not the swing I would be pushing) but your coach never had you exaggerate a move when trying to groove a new feeling? Without a lot more context it is hard to figure out what exactly Haney is doing. Personally i would question more the idea of a beginner going out and spending time on the driver.  Get him hitting a 6 iron somewhat consistantly and work on chipping and putting.  I don't know how long the show is (or how many total hours Hank spends with them) but the goal should be to get him in the 90-100 range.  A 160 yard 6 iron and not flubbing chip shots seems like his best chance to me and doing that in 3 months is pretty good for a lot of people. If he is doing those things well after 2 months throw in the driver. Right now it is just going to frustrate him and take time away from working on other things so he is likely to end up as a guy who alternates hitting the driver 250 and 250 with a 150 yard slice and then blades his chip over the green.

As far as not knowing the ball flight laws, yeah it is  always disappointing to hear. But I wouldn't turn down a lesson from Butch Harmon even if he hasn't updated his ball flight views. As far as I know Josh's ball flight laws are right but I am judging that from one D-Plane video.  I haven't the one with bad laws but that sure doesn't mean it isn't out there. I haven't seen all of his videos but when I was searching for release videos a couple of weeks ago, I thought his was one of the clearest.

And for a show specific complaint, is anyone else annoyed that they haven't stated the rules of the competition? Is it strictly who drops their handicap the most. Or even tell us how long the show is and how many lessons do these guys get? Personally I think they don't get anywhere near enough time to make a difference. Lets see them work with Hank every other day for a couple of hours for a month and see what the results are.  I get the feeling that they see him once a month for a total of like 5 lessons.

His video about the ball flight laws may very well be old and maybe he's changed his approach to those now. I didn't check dates or anything. Just saw it in the sidebar when searching for him and watched it since it's typically my first gauge as to whether an instructor will keep my interest.

I watched his D-Plane video and it appears he does know the correct ball flight laws, but I found the video to be somewhat confusing; maybe need to watch it again. I though James and Erik's D-Plane video was much easier to understand. It seemed in Josh's video, he would say "the plane is leaning to the left" but from my view watching, it was actually leaning to the right. So, I'm not sure if the things he was stating were from his viewpoint or what?

It does appear that the guys on the show don't get to spend a lot of time with Haney. He drops in and gives a lesson and then they're on their own for a time before the next lesson when Haney will have them come out to the range where he's had about 1,000 balls teed up for them to machine gun through. Weird show.