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Patrick57

Are most amateur golfers being mislead on how to swing?

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A lumberjack is not trying to have a small sphere land at a particular spot about 280-320 yards down a piece of land and avoid trees, water, and bunkers along the way.

And this will be my last comment unless someone adds something really insane...

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Way to completely miss the point there buddy. The 45" hammer is called a driver and it requires a heck of a lot more precision and speed than hammering a nail the point is that hammering a nail is about a million times easier than hitting a golf ball. An axe is also a bad example. Even professional axe men or those lumberjacks that compete in those tournaments aren't as precise with an axe as we need to be to hit a golf ball solidly.

By the by it's funny that you talk about how big the face is on the driver when the picture back in this thread shows you MISSING THE FACE OF YOUR DRIVER and popping the ball up. Great "natural swing" pal.

If you think swinging an axe is like hitting a golf ball you're dumber than you've been given credit.

Originally Posted by Patrick57

I just knew you were going go with the hammer, although I emphasised the big axe as a better comparison. If the forty-five inch hammer was light enough and the face was as big as my driver and the head of the nail was as big as a golf ball, and the nail and the hammer didn't have to stop in the wood, then why swing at 100 mph with the hammer. As it is, I have never come across such a hammer.

A better example is a longer axe used to chop a tree, near to the ground, which allows you to swing on a similar plane to golf. Although I have never chopped down a tree, I'm sure I could find a natural swing that would accomplish this task.

I'm sorry but many pros draw geometric lines and explain the physics of the swing during lessons and video analysis. I've never seen a lumberjack use science for his similar swing. With an axe we naturally swing on an accurate plane to our target, in golf we have so much custard in our heads we tend to swing on an unnatural plane to our target.

Sincerely yours

Patrick


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Hi Mr. Desmond,

Quote:
You Said,
A lumberjack is not trying to have a small sphere land at a particular spot about 280-320 yards down a piece of land and avoid trees, water, and bunkers along the way.

Yes because he knows his limitations. How many amateur golfers do you know who can pull off that particular shot with any consistency.

Sincerely yours

Patrick

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Originally Posted by Patrick57

Hi tristanhilton,

my daughter plays off 3 and I know most of you will think she lives on the course. From the age of 8 to 12 she played about 3 times a week and took lessons from me a couple of times a week. From the age of 13 with a handicap of 4.4 she has more or less given up taking lessons with the odd 15 minute correction before a tournament.

She now only plays a couple of weeks of the year just before the club championship and then wins the thing. Last season she won the said stroke play championship with a scratch 75 and 73.

This is only one of my low single figure students. I am of the opinion that many more golfers can get to a single figure handicap but not with a knowledge of geometry or physics but with a more natural approach to learning the game.

Sincerely yours

Patrick


Many, many players can get to a low number without actual knowledge of the swing or physics or geometry.  Hell, look at Nick Faldo and the advice he gives on the Golf Channel; the dude has no idea what he is talking about but manages to play at a world class level...  The fact that your daughter has figured it out isn't so surprising either... but I guarantee that if you were to post video of her swing and compare it to a "professional" swing there would be many similarities.  The bottom line is that good swings have commonalities, that is why they are good and others aren't, and what golf instruction does is try to teach that.  The majority of it is done very poorly, often by people who really don't understand what those commonalities are and because of that the process becomes hard and confusing for the student often to the point where they give up.  Having an instructor with knowledge of the physics and the geometry of the golf swing helps because he (or she) will know why something isn't working and what will fix it.  It's a lot less "guess and check" than most of the instruction that you see.  Some people (myself included) need to hear and understand the "why" and so having an instructor that can explain things is important... Others, like your daughter I assume, don't need that.  Usually these are the ones that are more gifted athletically and seem to have those commonalities in their swing naturally.  And I have to say, starting at a young age really helps too.

My point is that your idea of a more "natural approach" just doesn't work all the time.  For a young kid thats great, but what about for somebody like me who started in high school and has been bombarded with instruction from everywhere... there is no way I can just start with a clean slate and unlearn everything from the past 11 years.  For me I need somebody who actually understands the swing, can see my swing flaws, and can help me correct them.



Originally Posted by Patrick57

Hi Mr. Desmond,

Yes because he knows his limitations. How many amateur golfers do you know who can pull off that particular shot with any consistency.

Sincerely yours

Patrick



So, as amateur golfers we should assume that we are all limited and shouldn't try to learn to hit these shots?  I know the best part of the game for me (and many others) is improvement, and to just say "nah, I can't do that, its beyond me so I won't try" is completely ridiculous.  Especially when there are good instructors out there that can help you achieve your goals.

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first things first - there are many things most pros do that pretty much anyone can do.  some common components of a professional swing:  1) keep their weight centered 2) swing with "deep" hands 3) push their hips to the target on the downswing 4) not flip

the problem is that people are not shown how to do this.  so these are definitely things we should all emulate, if we can be taught how to do them.

second, people are having issues with the fact that you teach people, yet they can see from your video that your impact position (pretty much the most crucial part of the swing) is deficient.

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Hi tristanhilton85 ,

I totally agree that a good coach will be able to help you but, in my opinion, he has to start with your natural swing, not someone else's, e.g. his own. I've witnessed many inconsistencies in coaching but as my post explains, most golf media and instructors opt for perfect professional conditions being taught using verbal instructions.

Quote:
I wrote,
generally tells himself that he's got to get the club parallel at the top of the back swing; shift his weight at impact without moving his head or altering his spine angle; and end up perfectly balanced on his target foot after a smooth follow through.

Soccer players don't approach a ball instructing themselves verbally to get their right knee in front of the ball with their weight over a flat left foot and then follow through in this position. They do it all more naturally, with feeling not words. I probably shouldn't have tried to then convey my message at the end of the original post and instead left the argument open.

Quote:
I wrote,
Putting it simply, how can a regular golfer who hasn't, and normally doesn't want to, put in the practice hours or essential stretching required, be expected to accomplish the very athletically challenging conditions achieved by the top athletes of the sport.

In a nutshell, that's my main argument and I believe golfers should adopt a swing that is natural for them. There are of course certain pointers that can aid in the process but trying to explain them in a few sentences is not feasible.

As for you, over the last 11 years you have been getting to know how to swing a golf club sometimes successfully and sometimes less. There is no doubt that golfers experience wider differences levels of performance peaks and troughs than any other sport and that is because of the excess variety of instruction that is available. Most of this is aimed at people who are prepared to practice for about 10 hours per week.

I don't want to tell you how to learn, I am just pointing out the flaws in the system.

Sincerely yours

Patrick

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Hi colin007 ,

Everyone has deficiencies in their swings, I have no problem with mine. I could live for 1000 years, and I am occasionally going to top or get under one, I can live with that. If every coach was to give up every time he made a swing error.. well you know the rest.

Have you seen Butch Harmon swinging? Would you condemn him to stop teaching if he got the club head a little low on one shot. I coach for 8-12 hours per day, 7 days a week, do you want me to practice for another few hours so that I don't get under one.

Smarten up!

Sincerely yours

Patrick

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In a nutshell, that's my main argument and I believe golfers should adopt a swing that is natural for them. There are of course certain pointers that can aid in the process but trying to explain them in a few sentences is not feasible.]

So then how does one find their natural swing? Which tips are fine, and which lead you down the path of artificiality? (Also, rather than quoting people the way you are, the best way is to hit the quote button at the bottom of each post, and then you can always cut stuff out or copy/paste if you need to make it shorter.)

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Originally Posted by Patrick57

Everyone has deficiencies in their swings, I have no problem with mine. I could live for 1000 years, and I am occasionally going to top or get under one, I can live with that. If every coach was to give up every time he made a swing error.. well you know the rest.

Have you seen Butch Harmon swinging? Would you condemn him to stop teaching if he got the club head a little low on one shot. I coach for 8-12 hours per day, 7 days a week, do you want me to practice for another few hours so that I don't get under one.

Smarten up!

Sincerely yours

Patrick



Then why use that picture as your avatar?  Or, why originally state a handicap of 12?  Seems you are here to simply flame.  Set others up and slam and/or name call.

"Signing" every post Sincerely Yours doesn't allow you to be a condescending prick.

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Quote:
Originally Posted by Patrick57 View Post

Hi tristanhilton85 ,

I totally agree that a good coach will be able to help you but, in my opinion, he has to start with your natural swing, not someone else's, e.g. his own. I've witnessed many inconsistencies in coaching but as my post explains, most golf media and instructors opt for perfect professional conditions being taught using verbal instructions.


Any good instructor will start with your swing.  The thing is that you need somebody with knowledge of the swing to implement the right pieces from there.  It seems like regardless of the swing that your students come to you with you advise them to restrict it and give up all hope of ever hitting the ball well.

Soccer players don't approach a ball instructing themselves verbally to get their right knee in front of the ball with their weight over a flat left foot and then follow through in this position. They do it all more naturally, with feeling not words. I probably shouldn't have tried to then convey my message at the end of the original post and instead left the argument open.


One of the beautiful things about golf is that it is entirely it's own sport.  There is no other sport that you stand to the side of a stationary ball on the ground and try to hit it.  The closest thing to the golf swing in another sport is the baseball swing, but even there the ball is off of the ground and moving.  My point saying this is that golf is different so don't compare it to another sport because it is irrelevant.


As for you, over the last 11 years you have been getting to know how to swing a golf club sometimes successfully and sometimes less. There is no doubt that golfers experience wider differences levels of performance peaks and troughs than any other sport and that is because of the excess variety of instruction that is available. Most of this is aimed at people who are prepared to practice for about 10 hours per week.

I don't want to tell you how to learn, I am just pointing out the flaws in the system.


Let me end by telling you about my last 11 years since I started playing golf.  I started by grabbing a set of old beginner clubs that my dad had and started hacking around with those with my "natural" swing... I then joined the high school team where my coach made some tweaks to my "natural" swing and I was at best a double bogey golfer from then until about a year and a half ago.  I tried to make changes here and there during that time by implementing random instruction that I heard but I really wasn't serious about this game.  About a year and a half ago (actually just a bit longer), I joined this site and in October I posted video of my swing.  Iacas and others were kind enough to give me feedback on what they saw and because they had an understanding of the game were able to help me figure out what to work on.  I am now a 15.5 handicap and every 15 days when it gets revised that number falls.  The reason that I've improved so much is because of the bits of quality instruction that I've received on this site.  I've tried the "just swing it" approach and it don't work (at least for me).  So for me, my improvement didn't start until I got instruction from people who understand the physics and geometry of the game.

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Hello again Jamo,

Allow me to try to answer your intelligent question.

Quote:
You asked,
So then how does one find their natural swing? Which tips are fine, and which lead you down the path of artificiality?

Feedback tips are fine. E.g. When taking a practice swing, can you see the direction the club head is travelling through or over the grass. On the same breath can you see this same detail when you are hitting the ball.

Verbal instruction tips would lead you down the path of artificiality. E.g. Telling a golfer to shift his weight towards the target on the down swing with a turn of the hips and keeping his head still. I'm sorry but our muscle system can't translate these words into the proper action. Occasionally we do get it right but it is not down to the verbal command, that's why we can't repeat it.

I'm sorry this is a rather vague answer, but I have written an unpublished book on this subject that I will gladly send you, for free, if you are interested.

P.S. I can't get a hold of how to quote from a post like you advised.

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Originally Posted by Gresh24

Then why use that picture as your avatar?  Or, why originally state a handicap of 12?  Seems you are here to simply flame.  Set others up and slam and/or name call.

"Signing" every post Sincerely Yours doesn't allow you to be a condescending prick.


I didn't set the picture, I believe that was iacas. As a coach I play off scratch, I set my handicap as 0,0. I know where the 12 came from though. I challenged a 12 handicapper to give me 8 shots when I play him with my 9 iron. I didn't however set my handicap at 12.

"Condescending pr""k," that hurts. I have re-read all of my posts and apart from the minority, I feel I have been rather good mannered. You must be reading the other posters who have been rather unfriendly at times to me.

Truly yours

Patrick

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Originally Posted by Gresh24

Then why use that picture as your avatar?  Or, why originally state a handicap of 12?  Seems you are here to simply flame.  Set others up and slam and/or name call.

I added that as his avatar (because I hate seeing the default Sand Trap logo one on people who are posting frequently). I also don't recall seeing his handicap as 12 - I thin it's been 0.0 every time I've looked at it, but a few people now have said 12. I think it's probably somewhat irrelevant, as handicap is not necessarily a measure of knowledge.

Originally Posted by Patrick57

P.S. I can't get a hold of how to quote from a post like you advised.


Not difficult:

Screen Shot 2012-03-13 at 1.56.46 pm.PNG

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Wow, I didn't realize moderators just go in and change people's profile settings.  Interesting.  My apologies on that one Patrick.

The Handicap Index in the profile was 12.  Guess that's irrelevant.

I still think you are simply here to flame.  Yes, you just resort to name calling and insults in "a minority" of your posts, but you've been around for a couple days and 25 posts.

I'm sure we'll all see the real reason you're here soon enough...

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Patrick,

Clicking "Quote" on a single post will add that post to the 'reply' box at the bottom of the page for you to reply to it.

Clicking "Multi" on several posts and then clicking "Quote" will add all of the posts you clicked "Multi" on to the 'reply' box at the bottom of the page.

Incidentally what makes your instruction/book any different to teachers like Shawn Clement and what makes you think people will pay attention to what you're saying if your demonstration is more of a "do as I say, not as I do"?

Originally Posted by Gresh24

I'm sure we'll all see the real reason you're here soon enough...

Originally Posted by Patrick57

... I have written an unpublished book on this subject...

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Originally Posted by Patrick57

Hi colin007,

Everyone has deficiencies in their swings, I have no problem with mine.

Smarten up!

Sincerely yours

Patrick

everyone pops one up now and then.  tiger does too.  thats not what im talking about.  i was referring to your flipping of the club.

I'm out.

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Originally Posted by Gresh24

Wow, I didn't realize moderators just go in and change people's profile settings.  Interesting.  My apologies on that one Patrick.

The Handicap Index in the profile was 12.  Guess that's irrelevant.

I still think you are simply here to flame.  Yes, you just resort to name calling and insults in "a minority" of your posts, but you've been around for a couple days and 25 posts.

I'm sure we'll all see the real reason you're here soon enough...

The reason I am here is to get my coaching juices flowing for the new season which should be starting in the next few weeks. After that you will be hearing only occasionally from me. I enjoy talking about the golf swing and have found the responses pretty good on this site. I am a little surprised at the rudeness directed towards new posters but I am told that is pack and parcel of what to expect.

I stick by my concept...

"It's nice to be nice!"

I have also been told not to sign off with 'Sincerely yours' so I won't. I don't want to be offending anyone.

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Note: This thread is 2818 days old. We appreciate that you found this thread instead of starting a new one, but if you plan to post here please make sure it's still relevant. If not, please start a new topic. Thank you!

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