2012 Arnold Palmer Invitational Discussion Thread

[jhwmusic]

Sorry, I didn't get the message, I thought sport was about close contests that anyone could win coming down to the last hole/second rather than a Sunday afternoon stroll to the coronation of the next greatest of all time ever.

There was no dominant player between Jack and Tiger and I seem to remember the majors being superb on a regular basis. Not knowing what was going to happen, looking back I should have known Monty wasn't going to win but thats another thing.

So what do you call Tom Watson's 8 majors? The norm?

[Wansteadimp]

Originally Posted by jhwmusic

So what do you call Tom Watson's 8 majors? The norm?

Exceptional, he was pretty much done by 83, that's what 14 years before Tiger wins the Masters. Watson overlapped Jack, it was Faldo, if anyone, that dominated between the two. If he can emulate Faldo then he will have had a hugely successful career.

The hype so far based on 1 major, and 4 or 5 other wins is over the top imho especially in light of the blown opportunities that aren't talked about.

Having said that I hope he proves me wrong.

[jhwmusic]

I feel the hype is more based on his unbelievable talent and attitude....at least it is to me. There is just something different about him...something that makes him stand apart from the rest. And though faldo was dominant for like 6 or so years, he did NOT last longer than Watson at a high level. Faldo disappeared at a relatively young age...for whatever reason. And wasn't he known as a choke artist in his younger years? I believe he was until the big Ledbetter swing change. Yes he won 6 majors but he was done winning anything by the 97ish and wasn't even significant until the mid 80's. Yeah he contended here and there, and was a good ryder cup player but didn't win a major until 87, I believe. And I don't think he even has all that many worldwide wins...nothing compared to Norman. Yeah, he was a tough matchup in the Ryder Cup, but so are Sergio and Poulter. Oh and he's a total dick! Sorry, had to throw that in...you are obviously fan but he was dick when he played and he's still a dick now. He may talk about himself even more than Johnny Miller. The thing about Rory is that he doesn't have make any changes to be successful...it's working just fine the way it is. He's got the goods!!!

[bplewis24]

Originally Posted by jhwmusic

No, I guess I see what you are saying...but they are pretty close. I was referring to overall performance at Rory's current age...rory turned pro earlier so I get what you are saying. Sorry for the sarcasm.

No need...I have thick skin and I could tell you weren't sure where I was coming from.  Besides, when I checked the raw numbers, (worldwide win totals vs age), you had a point.  But obviously that's going to change over the course of the next 12-18 months unless Rory starts really winning at an unreasonably (in terms of expectations) high rate.

Brandon

[brocks]

Rory has also blown tournaments he should have won, Dubai, in Switzerland, Hong Kong in 2010, not to mention Augusta. Most of those are several years ago and he was young etc but I can't remember Tiger having to "learn how to win".

Tiger did have to learn to win as a pro, but it didn't take him very long. In his third pro start, the '96 Quad Cities Open (which became the John Deere), Tiger shot 69-64-67 to lead by one after 54 holes, but shot a 72 on Sunday to finish T5. He shot 68-66-66 the next week at the BC Open to lie 3 back of the leader after 54 holes, but the final round was cancelled due to weather, so he had to settle for 3rd. That was his 5th week of competitive golf in a row, counting his US Amateur win, so he took a week off. The next week, he won the Las Vegas Invitational, beating Davis Love in a playoff.

[jhwmusic]

No need...I have thick skin and I could tell you weren't sure where I was coming from.  Besides, when I checked the raw numbers, (worldwide win totals vs age), you had a point.  But obviously that's going to change over the course of the next 12-18 months unless Rory starts really winning at an unreasonably (in terms of expectations) high rate.

Brandon

Thanks. Though I will apologize again because my sarcastic response was more of a carry over from a convo with someone else. So I responded to you quickly without thinking about what you were really saying...I was annoyed with the doubters so I got a little trigger happy! Yeah, I am not saying Rory will keep up Tiger pace. I was basically trying to make a point that he is doing what Tiger was doing at that age, so he has potential to make a run at guys like Watson, Hogan etc..

[jhwmusic]

Exceptional, he was pretty much done by 83, that's what 14 years before Tiger wins the Masters. Watson overlapped Jack, it was Faldo, if anyone, that dominated between the two. If he can emulate Faldo then he will have had a hugely successful career.

The hype so far based on 1 major, and 4 or 5 other wins is over the top imho especially in light of the blown opportunities that aren't talked about.

Having said that I hope he proves me wrong.

And he didn't really overlap jack...he won while jack was starting to fade. His first couple were at the end of jack's true dominance.

[MSchott]

Originally Posted by jhwmusic

Yeah, I saw that post and I think I responded agreeing with you.

That would be very impressive if he even came close to that, but I'm not even saying he is gonna do what tiger did. I am just sick of the doubters on this page. According to some of these guys on this page, there could never be another player from now until the end of time who could ever be classified as one of the "All time greats." If that is the case, professional golf is gonna suck for the next 20 years. Because every sport needs dominance or at least a few players that stand above the rest. These people drive me nuts! Do they understand how sports work? Records are to be broken or at least challenged...that's just what happens.

The skepticism comes not from seeing Rory's talent but that this is far from the first time that this sort of prediction has been made. 40 years ago Johnny Miller was the next Nicklaus then Chip Beck and others. More recently people praised Dustin Johnson, Justin Rose and others as having potential for greatness. I think Rory is a class above these guys but it's a huge longshot to predict anyone to win more majors than Watson and Hogan. Other than Jack, only Tiger has done so and he's possibly the greatest player ever. And in last 15 years as previously mentioned, the field has become much deeper.

[jhwmusic]

The skepticism comes not from seeing Rory's talent but that this is far from the first time that this sort of prediction has been made. 40 years ago Johnny Miller was the next Nicklaus then Chip Beck and others. More recently people praised Dustin Johnson, Justin Rose and others as having potential for greatness. I think Rory is a class above these guys but it's a huge longshot to predict anyone to win more majors than Watson and Hogan. Other than Jack, only Tiger has done so and he's possibly the greatest player ever. And in last 15 years as previously mentioned, the field has become much deeper.

I don't think anyone has said that Dustin Johnson or Justin Rose were gonna be the next Jack Nicklaus. I get what you are saying and understand skepticisim but for last time, I am not saying that Rory is going to be Jack or Tiger. I simply said he has the "potential" to win a lot of majors...more of a chance than Dustin Johnson, Justin Rose or anyone else.... Dustin Johnson can hit the ball far and that is about it...Rory has the total package and that includes between his ears and in his heart. if you would read the previous posts you would see that I have already expressed these views over and over again. Not sure why everyone feels the need to repeat each other.

[Wansteadimp]

Originally Posted by jhwmusic

And he didn't really overlap jack...he won while jack was starting to fade. His first couple were at the end of jack's true dominance.

?? Watson won his first in 75 and a further 3 to 1980 - 4 in total, Nicklaus won 5 in the same period including 2 in 1980, fading away indeed. Watson then won another 4 in the next 3 years then nothing. Nicklaus then had his 86 Masters win. By any sensible measure they overlapped, Jack won a third of his majors after Watson won his first (a slight white lie Jack won the Masters in 75 Tom won the Open in 75 - but its the same season).

Having looked at Wiki, it struck me that Jack finished outside the top 10 7 times in 12 years (70 to 81 inc) in the Majors, f-me that is some golf!

[zipazoid]

Originally Posted by Wansteadimp

Having looked at Wiki, it struck me that Jack finished outside the top 10 7 times in 12 years (70 to 81 inc) in the Majors, f-me that is some golf!

Sometimes I think Jack's 19 2nd-place finishes in majors is almost more impressive than the 18 wins. That's 37 majors finishing first or second. That's why, in the GOAT thread a few weeks back I said cmon. It's Jack. Clearly.

[sonicblue]

When Tiger held the #1 spot, he was so far clear of the next player, that it took -- how long of his NOT EVEN PLAYING -- for someone to finally unseat him?  I haven't bothered to investigate the math, but the occasional disapperance of Donald and McIlroy and Westwood from relevance in any given tournament, compared to how Tiger is already seemingly getting his flare back for always finding the first page, let alone winning, makes it nearly a lock that he will regain the #1 spot again very soon.  I think he should, when I think of the #1 player in the world, that person should be someone who, when they're in the field, changes the competition level.  The others who have held it haven't held up that definition.  Regardless of how many wins/majors Tiger manages to rack up in the next several years, I think we're going to end up looking back on 2010-2011 as the Tour getting but a brief respite from Tiger strangling the #1 OWGR spot.

[Wansteadimp]

Originally Posted by jhwmusic

I feel the hype is more based on his unbelievable talent and attitude....at least it is to me. There is just something different about him...something that makes him stand apart from the rest.

And though faldo was dominant for like 6 or so years, he did NOT last longer than Watson at a high level. Faldo disappeared at a relatively young age...for whatever reason. And wasn't he known as a choke artist in his younger years? I believe he was until the big Ledbetter swing change. Yes he won 6 majors but he was done winning anything by the 97ish and wasn't even significant until the mid 80's. Yeah he contended here and there, and was a good ryder cup player but didn't win a major until 87, I believe. And I don't think he even has all that many worldwide wins...nothing compared to Norman. Yeah, he was a tough matchup in the Ryder Cup, but so are Sergio and Poulter. Oh and he's a total dick! Sorry, had to throw that in...you are obviously fan but he was dick when he played and he's still a dick now. He may talk about himself even more than Johnny Miller.

The thing about Rory is that he doesn't have make any changes to be successful...it's working just fine the way it is. He's got the goods!!!

Faldo won his majors over a long period than Watson, 87 to 96 compared to 75 to 83. You're right though Watson was always a better player. Can't really remember Faldo pre the swing change there were certainly majors he should have won were he chocked the chance away. Missing out on the Irwin Donald play-off at the US Open, also the PGA Azinger won he was right in the mix.

He won his last major at 39 so not that young, it was more how long he took to get to the top level 10 years from turning pro to first major.

His lack of worldwide wins were more down to possibilities available. The European Tour was very defensive about its players joing the US tour, Euro players couldn't get invitations to US tournaments, the commish insisted they joined the US Tour - which very few of them wanted to commit to solely - the confrontations between Seve and Bemen (sp?) are legendary.

As far as being a fan, no not really, I supported him when he was in contention, admired what he did and his dedication - but you're right he was and remains a dick which precludes fandom.

Now Woosnam there is a man, short and fat, likes a beer and is good at golf! Just like me, except the good at golf bit!!

[Golfingdad]

I know this is off-topic as far as the current direction of the discussion, but is still appropriate for this thread based on something I saw at Bay Hill on Saturday ...

How in the hell do you people in Florida play golf with freaking ALLIGATORS wandering around next to the green?  I think I would feel way more pressure the entire time thinking I'm about to get eaten than I ever would in a tournament or playing for money.

EDIT:  Or did I mean to say crocodiles?  I'm not sure if I know the difference.

[iacas]

Originally Posted by Golfingdad

I know this is off-topic as far as the current direction of the discussion, but is still appropriate for this thread based on something I saw at Bay Hill on Saturday ...

How in the hell do you people in Florida play golf with freaking ALLIGATORS wandering around next to the green?  I think I would feel way more pressure the entire time thinking I'm about to get eaten than I ever would in a tournament or playing for money.

They don't really want any part of you either. Only if you threaten them.

[Golfingdad]

Originally Posted by iacas

They don't really want any part of you either. Only if you threaten them.

That makes sense, but boy, would it take some getting used to.  I only know them from giant cages in zoos and trying to eat James Bond in "Live And Let Die."

And everybody can ignore my dumb crocodile question ... I just realized the University of Florida Crocs sounds lame.

[TourSpoon]

Originally Posted by Golfingdad

I know this is off-topic as far as the current direction of the discussion, but is still appropriate for this thread based on something I saw at Bay Hill on Saturday ...

How in the hell do you people in Florida play golf with freaking ALLIGATORS wandering around next to the green?  I think I would feel way more pressure the entire time thinking I'm about to get eaten than I ever would in a tournament or playing for money.

EDIT:  Or did I mean to say crocodiles?  I'm not sure if I know the difference.

Haha, they are just really big lizards. They don't want anything to do with you either. Now the cottonmouths (water moccasins) are a different story! Say Hello to my little friend that I met last month.

[Golfingdad]

Originally Posted by TourSpoon

Haha, they are just really big lizards. They don't want anything to do with you either. Now the cottonmouths (water moccasins) are a different story! Say Hello to my little friend that I met last month.

I get it.  I mean we have rattlesnakes at a lot the courses around here, you just don't see them sunbathing on the edge of the fairways like they own the place.  Also, it's not so much the lizard part that would take the getting used to, but the "really big" part.

For some reason, your picture didn't show up here.  Bummer.