Is shaping the ball overrated

[logman]

Originally Posted by LuciusWooding

A SW is about 35.5 inches while a 3 iron is 39-40 inches. Cut the 3 iron down to 36 inches and bend it up and you'll hit it straighter, probably comparably to the wedge. That's also about 35 degrees difference in loft, while drivers are generally within 4 degrees of one another. It's a strawman argument and it doesn't address my claim. If you only measure the first 100 yards of flight, there wouldn't be much difference I'd bet.

With 2 identical length and shaft drivers, maybe it would make a difference of a paltry couple yards of dispersion, but it's retarded to take too much loft on the driver out of fear of a slice. The extra height and spin can also be troublesome as it's more susceptible to wind, negating the possible accuracy gains in some conditions. You should pick the loft solely on swing speed, spin, and launch angle as I said and shorten the shaft for accuracy if needed. Plus you would slice a 12* driver more than a 3 iron, let alone a wedge. By that logic, why not just take everything but wedges out of slicer's bags? Even a high lofted driver would never beat the almighty sand wedge that goes perfectly straight.

And chippers have less loft than a sand wedge, so wouldn't the wedge go straighter and by your logic be more forgiving? And forget about 4* putters, ramp it up to 55 degrees.

Lucius, Why should the loft of the driver be determined by the swing speed,spin and launch angle. Amateur golfers using these priorities to select their driver would usually end up with a club that they can hit the furthest with. Is that what you really want. That's what pro's want and I reckon handicap players should steer away from trying to emulate what pros do. Amateurs using track man to select clubs is well dodgy. I don't want optimum launch conditions from a driver. Well I do but I know I'd play better golf if I eased up on the ego and took a driver with more loft, more spin and shorter shaft. I can swing the driver at a max of 110 mph.......and I'll hit 10% of fairways or I can swing my 14 degree 44 inch driver and hit 77%. Swing speed has little to do with driver choice. Tell me when the last track man operator has ever said to the prospective buyer of a new driver......"so how do you want to play the game?"

[LuciusWooding]

Originally Posted by stogiesnbogies

I think the bigger blanket statement would be to assume anything about a 30 'cappers swing....

In the case of a 30 plus 'capper the problem is more likely something like ball position , height of tee , stance , grip.....a virtual panoply of possibilites that confront all golfers but more so the 30 plus 'capper....however as a general rule slower swing speeds -and newbies and high cappers often  fare much better with higher lofted drivers -they take off some of the side spin that leads to slices-the #1 problem for most amateurs... ...i.e. I use a 14 loft driver and rarely miss a fairway (at least not terribly so  LOL) -while not sacraficing much in  distance  since like most amateurs I only hit driver 200-240  (and 240 is clocking it -with the wind LOL)

I started playing last year and haven't gotten my swing grooved until this winter. I swing at 115 mph with the driver on a normal swing, around 120 at times, ball speed in the 170 range. And that's not at the Golfsmith monitor, it's on my own radar with hundreds of swings. I am obviously not the typical beginner, but it's still wrong to give blanket advice. I would have gotten better faster if I didn't listen to all the bad advice out there, which applies to people with no athleticism or understanding of the swing. When I first started I hit a 10.5* driver and it worked fine until about November, where I started to balloon every shot. Going down to 9 degrees helped until I learned the new driver, then I added more and more swing speed working with the radar, and started ballooning worse than ever.

Originally Posted by luu5

I thought your claim was a general claim in the way of "the loft does not affect sidespin/backspin ratio", but I guess I read it wrong.

My claim is that the loft does affect the spin axis, but so minimally that it shouldn't be a consideration. The difference in dispersion between an 8* driver and a 12* driver should be similar to the difference between an 18* 2 iron and a 22 degree 3 iron, no? I offer the suggestion that a 45+ inch driver would be served better by shortening the shaft than increasing the loft in terms of control, providing the operator is capable of generating enough ball speed to launch. And believe me, the idea that a 12* driver hits more fairways also doesn't apply in a crosswind. Extra loft is being treated like a magical solution that will fix your slice where a low loft driver is the new 1 iron. Take whatever you hit best and if you want a slice fix then get offset and shorten the shaft.

Originally Posted by logman

Lucius, Why should the loft of the driver be determined by the swing speed,spin and launch angle. Amateur golfers using these priorities to select their driver would usually end up with a club that they can hit the furthest with. Is that what you really want. That's what pro's want and I reckon handicap players should steer away from trying to emulate what pros do. Amateurs using track man to select clubs is well dodgy. I don't want optimum launch conditions from a driver. Well I do but I know I'd play better golf if I eased up on the ego and took a driver with more loft, more spin and shorter shaft. I can swing the driver at a max of 110 mph.......and I'll hit 10% of fairways or I can swing my 14 degree 44 inch driver and hit 77%. Swing speed has little to do with driver choice. Tell me when the last track man operator has ever said to the prospective buyer of a new driver......"so how do you want to play the game?"

Obviously the driver is a club for hitting the ball a long way. If you put so much spin on it that it goes the same distance as a 3 iron, you're screwing yourself out of your power advantage as well as the purpose of a driver. It's not maximum distance I'm after; that would mean a 48" driver. I just want a penetrating ball flight that gives me the distance I am capable of. If it requires a bit more skill or force to hit, I'll learn to hit it. I don't want to settle for a 260 yard carry when I could carry it 290 and get roll. I do use a 44.5" driver, I hit up on it and I generate a lot of ball speed. For you a 14* driver might launch at like 7-10 degrees but for me it's probably more like 18. Many pros who use higher lofted drivers hit down significantly and get better flight with them. It would be just as stupid to tell them to go for a 7* driver because they're pros as it would be to tell me to get a 14 degree because I'm a handicap golfer. What If I told you to hit a 19 degree driver with the same 44 inch shaft? You'd be getting similar ball flight to what I would with yours and I bet you wouldn't like it. And you hitting my 9 degree would be like me hitting a 4 degree in principle.

Obviously it's not exactly that simple, but the driver fitting's purpose is to optimize the spin, launch, and ball speed. The results are different for different swings, some people will have feel preferences that override distance or be looking for a certain flight. But if the fitter said to me: "Well you hit the 8 degree x stiff 300+ yards with 284 carry 2400rpm and a 10* launch but got 6500rpms, 18 degree launch angle and only 225 yards carry with a 225ft mx height on the other one (@170 ballspeed on flightscope analyzer)", you can bet the next words from my mouth would not be "well I'm a beginner so I'll take #2". Maybe I'd say "How much does #1 cost?" or "do you have anything close to #1 that's a bit more forgiving head?".

[saevel25]

Quote:

My claim is that the loft does affect the spin axis, but so minimally that it shouldn't be a consideration. The difference in dispersion between an 8* driver and a 12* driver should be similar to the difference between an 18* 2 iron and a 22 degree 3 iron, no?

Its alot more complicated than that. Really the spin on the golf ball is determined by the D-plane, were your looking for the oblique angle, which is determined by the dynamic loft, and the overall open or close of the face (face angle - club path). Basically the spin components, back spin and side spin is determined by multiplying the overall spin by the proportion between the two. the equation does contain a square root and square function. So its not linear at all. So to answer the question, it would be different between a driver from 8 degrees to 12 degrees, and an iron at 18 degrees and 22 degrees, because the fact that an iron is at 18 degrees makes it much less likely to be hit off line, and the difference in how those are hit off line decreases as the lofts increase. So lets say you have a sandwedge versus a gap wedge, that would have very little difference in the dispersion than a driver. Your assumption would be correct if the equations were linear.

Quote:

Many pros who use higher lofted drivers hit down significantly and get better flight with them

Actually this statement is wrong. Club face angle has little to do with launch angle, it has more to do with backspin. The dynamics of the swing have the majority to do with the launch angle. Rory, hits a very low lofted driver, but he hits a very high ball. There are probably some tour players who hit a high lofted driver, but hit a lower ball flight. The only thing there doing is determining how much backspin they want and how much side spin they want. I switched from a 10.5 degree driver to a 8.75 degree driver, i can hit them both the same height, or if it the 8.75 is lower, its not by much. Now if i play the ball forward in my stance, come in with a more ascending blow, i can drastically increase the height of my launch angle.

Also, clubheads are really similar, mostly your buying for your comfort level. Its almost impossible to compare driver heads unless your able to use the exact same shaft in each. Golf shaft will determing your spin rate more than a driver head. There all designed for low spin, high MOI. You might get one that has a hotter clubface, but there going to be close to the maximum COR by the USGA. Really you go to ask yourself, do i want to buy a customizable driver or not, do i like white clubheads or black clubheads, do i want the top name brand or not. Because if your buying Titleist, your buying for a slightly better feel, alot of the name, and customizable. If your buying talyormade, your getting adjustable and there supposed science proven white clubhead. If your buying ping, your probably going to get just the best run of the mill, no frills driver. Golf ball interaction with the clubface, not that much difference if all else is equal. So basically find a golf club with the shaft that fits you the best. Then get the loft to tweek the backspin to were you want. I bought a 910D2 driver, and tuned that thing down to 8.75 degrees, it took like 500 rpm on my backspin. The reason i took Titleist, they offer the best stock shafts for my swing speed.

[logman]

Thanks saevel, that's a great explanation(I think)

[Shorty]

Originally Posted by iacas

I can do it pretty much whenever I'd like. Doesn't mean I'm anywhere close to being on the PGA Tour. PGA Tour players don't do it often because they rarely need a driver to reach a par five in two. We'd see it more often if every par five played 650 yards and accepted a cut for the second shot (the 18th at Kapalua doesn't favor righties hitting driver for their second shot, which is why Bubba could hit that shot).

Yep.

At the Australian Open a few years back at Royal Sydney, (won by Tim Clark) almost every player was hitting a driver off the deck for the second on a certain par 5 which flew uphill and to the right with not too much trouble to the right.

This obviously makes that club a smart choice, which is why they were all doing it.

You rarely see players using driver off the deck with a tight traight shot in front of them, which, in effect makes the shot a little like hitting a hybrid from the fringe. It's an "outlyer". Horses for courses.

[logman]

Hi lucius, I know I've crapped on about drivers on another thread before but in the numbers that your getting on the monitor I reckon you'd go really well with 2 drivers. It seems to me that one of the weapons of your game would be your ability to hit long. So given that your going to hit driver of some kind of driver, maybe 12 times a round why not play to your advantage. At the moment your carrying a driver which is a compromise between the extreme length that you can generate and accuracy and playability and finding the fairwayability. Why compromise? Why not play to your strengths. Why not set up 2 drivers. One club , shorter, a little more loft, a real fairway finder, for playing those "smart decision" shots. And the big bomber.....7 degrees, 48 inch, y'kow when can make the green on that par 4 or your looking for a shorter iron 2nd into that par 5. Having the ability to hit the ball a long way is a big advantage but it doesn't have to come at the expense of fairways in regulation. Just sayin.

[stogiesnbogies]

When there is a bunker or other hazard between ball and green I simply go airborne with one of the Cleveland Niblicks...they are easier to hit than conventional wedges and have the old Zip Grooves that spin the ball and make it stop on a dime....you can stick it pretty close to the pin from 100 yds in with one of these clubs....be ye high capper or low!

[LuciusWooding]

Originally Posted by logman

Hi lucius, I know I've crapped on about drivers on another thread before but in the numbers that your getting on the monitor I reckon you'd go really well with 2 drivers. It seems to me that one of the weapons of your game would be your ability to hit long. So given that your going to hit driver of some kind of driver, maybe 12 times a round why not play to your advantage. At the moment your carrying a driver which is a compromise between the extreme length that you can generate and accuracy and playability and finding the fairwayability. Why compromise? Why not play to your strengths. Why not set up 2 drivers. One club , shorter, a little more loft, a real fairway finder, for playing those "smart decision" shots. And the big bomber.....7 degrees, 48 inch, y'kow when can make the green on that par 4 or your looking for a shorter iron 2nd into that par 5. Having the ability to hit the ball a long way is a big advantage but it doesn't have to come at the expense of fairways in regulation. Just sayin.

Off the tee if I need to find a fairway, I can usually do pretty well with a driver as far as keeping it in play in the fairway or light rough. Once it knows you're afraid of it, it'll start missing but I hit it straighter when I swing hard and with confidence. My main problem isn't missing left and right so much as overshooting a landing area or picking a poor line, and I do mishit a fair number of shots but the driver is more forgiving than any other club so it wouldn't necessarily be much safer to hit a 3 wood or iron. I do use my 4 as a driving iron, and I hit it extremely well albeit still high. I can get it over 200 without much trouble and it will stop where it lands, so on many holes with trouble or a dogleg in driver range I may choose the iron. On the majority of courses near me, a 200-220 yard drive will put me within a short to mid iron of the green, even from the blues. I like my 3 wood to be shallow faced and good off the deck so I seldom gain much advantage from choosing it.

The suggestion is a valid one but I still say cutting down the shaft is better for accuracy than loft. I'd rather have a 43" driver by itself than sacrifice another spot in the bag for a 48 incher. Those things really don't work well for everyone and it takes a different swing type to hit them. Plus there aren't a lot of situations I can utilize the extra distance. Any green I can't drive with my normal driver would be foolish to drive, and any par 5 I can't reach in 2 already isn't meant to be. Not to mention drivers don't come cheap... I either hit the ball well or I don't, and often don't.

[Fourputt]

Originally Posted by turtleback

What do you do when there is a bunker between you and the green?

What do you do when there is water between you and the green?

What do you do when there is thick rough fronting the green?

What do you do when there is a severe change in elevation between you and the green?

Maybe on certain courses the 100 yard bump and run can be a successful shot, and maybe that is the kind of courses you play.  But on many many courses the 100 yard bump and run is impractical because of the difficulties between the ball and the green.  So on those courses you need to be able to hit the higher pitch type shot.

One of the courses I play has pretty open fronts on most holes and when the season is just starting and the grass is thin and lies are tight I'll play the 100 yard bump and run.  But I don't need a special club for it - I just take a 5 or 6 iron, choke down, move the ball back in my stance and punch it in there.

Not to mention that the hole is likely to be cut behind a bunker to one side of the green or the other, not dead center  where you can just roll the ball up every time.   Stogie seems to think that because he can't hit a wedge, and he has players at his club who can't, that this means than nobody can, or should even try.  That's just bullsnot.  For one thing I don't play at a "club".  Although I have a home course where I play most often, I play daily fee courses, and I play at quite a few different courses, in very different terrain and under different conditions.  I need a game that can accommodate variety.  Contrary to his opinion, one club, and one shot, does NOT fit all.  His adamant arguments about the incredible difficulty of traditional short game play simply don't apply to anyone but him.

I play with a 25+ handicapper who has a surprisingly good traditional wedge/short game.  I play with a 10 handicapper who's scared to death of chipping and might well benefit from a Niblick.  Different strokes for different folks, but just because I choose to play a traditional short game, it doesn't make me wrong. I simply use what works .

[Fourputt]

Originally Posted by LuciusWooding

Off the tee if I need to find a fairway, I can usually do pretty well with a driver as far as keeping it in play in the fairway or light rough. Once it knows you're afraid of it, it'll start missing but I hit it straighter when I swing hard and with confidence. My main problem isn't missing left and right so much as overshooting a landing area or picking a poor line, and I do mishit a fair number of shots but the driver is more forgiving than any other club so it wouldn't necessarily be much safer to hit a 3 wood or iron. I do use my 4 as a driving iron, and I hit it extremely well albeit still high. I can get it over 200 without much trouble and it will stop where it lands, so on many holes with trouble or a dogleg in driver range I may choose the iron. On the majority of courses near me, a 200-220 yard drive will put me within a short to mid iron of the green, even from the blues. I like my 3 wood to be shallow faced and good off the deck so I seldom gain much advantage from choosing it.

The suggestion is a valid one but I still say cutting down the shaft is better for accuracy than loft. I'd rather have a 43" driver by itself than sacrifice another spot in the bag for a 48 incher. Those things really don't work well for everyone and it takes a different swing type to hit them. Plus there aren't a lot of situations I can utilize the extra distance. Any green I can't drive with my normal driver would be foolish to drive, and any par 5 I can't reach in 2 already isn't meant to be. Not to mention drivers don't come cheap... I either hit the ball well or I don't, and often don't.

Honestly, I think that golfers are far too obsessed with length to the exclusion of any other consideration..  I know so many who hit the ball a ton with the driver, but even on a fairly forgiving course, they can't keep the ball in play consistently.   Several of the guys in my Men's Club have a decent iron game, and a useable short game, but they get into so much trouble off the tee that the rest tends to be irrelevant.  They can't be convinced that losing 20 or 30 yards from their tee shots would actually improve their scoring.  In such cases, ego trumps reality.  They have the John Daly complex - they get so caught up in the kudos from their buddies every time they hit a 300+ yard drive, that they just can't consider an alternative.  I'm not thrilled with my 230 yard drives, but I am happy with my typically 10-12 handicap over the last 23 years (it's a bit higher now, but I had 3 surgeries last year which had a significant effect on my play)

In 5 rounds since my home course (par 72 - 6500 yards from the mids, 69.4/120 rating/slope) opened this year, my highest score is 83, and I've had 2 rounds in the 70's.  That success is not due to a power game - my driver is 220-230 yards, 5i Is just 175 yards.  It's due to keeping the ball in play and relying heavily on a pretty solid short game.

[anthony]

Definitely not overrated at all. I'd love to be able to shape it around a dogleg off the tee at will. However, I'd say it's something that nearly every amateur golfer in the world should have at the bottom of their totem pole of things to learn.

[sean_miller]

Originally Posted by anthony

Definitely not overrated at all. I'd love to be able to shape it around a dogleg off the tee at will. However, I'd say it's something that nearly every amateur golfer in the world should have at the bottom of their totem pole of things to learn.

I'd put it ahead of sucking a wedge back to the flag from the back fringe.

[k-troop]

Originally Posted by sean_miller

I'd put it ahead of sucking a wedge back to the flag from the back fringe.

But that's the coolest shot in golf!  My old course in VA had a really short par-4 with a 2-tiered, very sloping green.  Any shot that hit any portion of the green with spin would end up near the front fringe.  With a front pin, that was always my favorite shot of the day.

[sean_miller]

Originally Posted by k-troop

Quote:

Originally Posted by sean_miller

I'd put it ahead of sucking a wedge back to the flag from the back fringe.

But that's the coolest shot in golf!  My old course in VA had a really short par-4 with a 2-tiered, very sloping green.  Any shot that hit any portion of the green with spin would end up near the front fringe.  With a front pin, that was always my favorite shot of the day.

You'd probably also learned to work that ball at that point though. Am I wrong?

[k-troop]

Originally Posted by sean_miller

You'd probably also learned to work that ball at that point though. Am I wrong?

No--that was when I was still using a chipper that I had bent from 35* down to 64*.

[sean_miller]

Originally Posted by k-troop

Quote:

Originally Posted by sean_miller

You'd probably also learned to work that ball at that point though. Am I wrong?

No--that was when I was still using a chipper that I had bent from 35* down to 64*.

I'll bet with the additional ~30 degrees of bounce that thing was amazing from bunkers. Did you hole a lot of bunker shots with it?

[logman]

I originally posted that the biggest ego boosters/ waste of times in amateur golf were low loft/ long drivers and 60+ degree wedges. You guys have reminded me of another. Trying to spin the ball back to the pin. That's a pro shot or a circus trick or a great way to add some more shots to your score

[k-troop]

Originally Posted by logman

I originally posted that the biggest ego boosters/ waste of times in amateur golf were low loft/ long drivers and 60+ degree wedges. You guys have reminded me of another. Trying to spin the ball back to the pin. That's a pro shot or a circus trick or a great way to add some more shots to your score

Or it's a great way to make birdie when you've got 100-yards to a pin tucked in the front of the green.