What can you tell me about forged irons?

[Shorty]

Originally Posted by TitleistWI

Actually, it is true.  Thats why the majority of the irons used on tour are forged and why so many companies are now offering forged wedge options.  If cast were the same, they wouldnt spend more money manufacturing forged clubs.

Do you really want that answered? Are you that naive and gullible? Surely not.

[sean_miller]

Quote:

Originally Posted by Shorty

Quote:

Quote:

Originally Posted by mlf16507

Check this out! http://golf.about.com/od/faqs/f/cast_forged.htm

Yep. But don't expect the likes of Titleist Wi to believe it.

My favourite wedges are forged (VIP, Ram Tom Watsons, Mizuno Pro, Hogans), but that's probably a coincidence. The worst feeling wedges I've owned were stainless (vintage Spaldings and Powerbilts and newer 431 SS High MOI Wilsons) but  I like the feel of Vokeys (not a fan of the oilcan finish though) and Cleveland 588s which are both cast.

[GaijinGolfer]

Originally Posted by Shorty

Do you really want that answered? Are you that naive and gullible? Surely not.

I actually would because it would be much easier to run a, "cast and just as good and we're going to prove it" ad campaign than to spend 3x as much money making forged clubs.

[jamo]

People can make the claims all they want that cast and forged is the same but all a person has to do is considering the differences between the 2 manufacturing processes to realize that forging a club changes it at a molecular level.  You dont need a degree in engineering to see what that would make a difference in feel.

You also don't need a degree to tell you that what happens at a molecular level is not always discernible to the humans hands and ears. Or maybe you do?

[iacas]

Originally Posted by TitleistWI

I actually would because it would be much easier to run a, "cast and just as good and we're going to prove it" ad campaign than to spend 3x as much money making forged clubs.

3x the cost eh?

20+ years ago casting used to create lousier golf clubs. That's far less true - to the point of it being "untrue" - today. These days, "forged" is mostly a marketing term.

[Old1964]

Wow. I didn't realize I was stepping in it...cast stainless steel vs. forged carbon steel.

[xxsoultonesxx]

My opinion on this is that feel = perception. No two people will perceive the same things in a golf club upon impact.

The reasons I personally bought a set of forged irons were:

They are ****ing beautiful. (my perception)

They are adjustable for loft/lie adjustments.

I got them new for under $400.

AND...

They felt great.

These types of club are geared towards golf enthusiasts, who appreciate a traditional construction method, adjustability, eye-catching looks, and also can accept their caveats IE; rust, having to check your lie, and bag chatter.

[mlf16507]

Being an old fart and in the golf business since 1973, I remember when golf companies were charging more for cast irons. According to Wilson,MacGregor,Dunlop and the other companies that made forged, the casting process cost more than forging!!! The 2 big cast clubs of the day-Ping and Lynx charged more than the forged iron companies, so Wilson,etc jumped on the band wagon.   If you believe all the hype the Golf Industry  tells you, I have some nice land that is above water level at low tide that I would like to sell you!

[mosnas]

Originally Posted by Shorty

ABSOLUTELY NOT TRUE. THIS IS WRONG!!!

When are people going to stop trotting this nonsense out?

I just want to say thank you to Shorty and the others who agree with him.  I went to hit and try out some clubs today brought in some Adams pro cb1's (which are forged) ill say as a big guy it takes me a while to get warmed up in these small compacted simulators.  After watching me make a few awkward swings he said the following "you know this club is for more skilled players forged irons are made for more skilled players that want more feedback." to which he brought back a bunch of other irons. after hitting through those i said let me see the adams again. I stepped up walloped a few long bomb 7 irons and then he shut his mouth.  To be honest I didnt feel this butter that everyone was talking about. I bought them cause they were the most appealing at address and were the most consistent for distance. so again thank you to those who believe that forged is no different than a manufacturing method.

[Jon Robert]

Originally Posted by Shorty

You are a victim of Mizuno's slick advertising, my friend.

Mizuno's forged irons might well feel different from a "standard cast" iron. I agree.  But is because of their design, not because of the way they were made.

What state do you think their billets were in before they were made into rods? Molten.

You can say as many times as you like that forged feels better than cast.

The fact of the matter is that it doesn't. You are unequivocally incorrect.

Think this through

1 Cast or forged head resonating after impact

2 Epoxy layer  transmitting the resonation no doubt with a substantial absorption quality

3 Shaft of steel, aluminum, carbon etc transmitting the resonation no doubt with a substantial absorption quality

4 Grip tape transmitting the resonation no doubt with a substantial absorption quality

5 Grip transmitting the resonation no doubt with a substantial absorption quality

I think the matter is better described as follows: the typical/traditional forged head shape is more likely NOT to mask the feel of impact compared to a typical cast heads design (large, perimeter weight etc)  It is like hitting a frog with a fly swatter and a baseball bat. Which design of instrument is more likely to allow feeling the frog/tool contact in the persons hand?

[bwdial]

The "feel" isn't real.  It has more to do with the sound.  Whatever "feel" there is, it has to travel through a steel - or graphite - shaft and the grips.

[GaijinGolfer]

Originally Posted by bwdial

The "feel" isn't real.  It has more to do with the sound.  Whatever "feel" there is, it has to travel through a steel - or graphite - shaft and the grips.

Actually, it is.  The feel relates to how the vibrations of impact travel through the clubhead and up the shaft.  The reason why some of the feel is muffled and lost in a casting is because of the air pockets and the jagged grain of the metal.  Forged, on the other hand, has no air pockets and the grain is uniform due to the forging process.

[RayG]

Where you fall on this one would probably depend on what equipment you learned on. As mentioned in another thread on a similar topic- Back in the 60's, 70's, and some of the early 80's. EVERYONE played with forged blade type of Irons. Whether you played a set of high end "tour' clubs or the lower end Northwestern "Chi-Chi Rodriguez" model (like I did- and used for quite awhile), you played "blade" style clubs. And yes there is a definite different 'feel' to those clubs as opposed to the early "Game Improvement" cast clubs that eventually took over. All of those were perimeter weighted, lower CG, etc... Of COURSE they were going to feel different. And the ad copy about better mis-hits were a big selling point, and they certainly did improve a lot of games. I know when I switched over to cast, there was certainly a different 'feel' to my game- not to mention increased yardages as a result. Threw off my game for at least a season or two until I dialed those in. But today- with the technology as it is, it is certainly possible to have forged game improvement clubs that feel little different from cast models. And it isn't a recent development- Hogan came out with the Edge back in the early-mid 80's that combined the perimeter weighting design of cast clubs in a forged Iron. I switched to those almost immediately on their debut. I LIKED the feel of a blade and learned to tailor my game to them. So the Edges were a decent compromise on that front. Still play a second generation set that I picked up after the original set was stolen out of the car. And I will keep playing those for as long as I can.

[sean_miller]

Originally Posted by TitleistWI

Quote:

Originally Posted by bwdial

The "feel" isn't real.  It has more to do with the sound.  Whatever "feel" there is, it has to travel through a steel - or graphite - shaft and the grips.

Actually, it is.  The feel relates to how the vibrations of impact travel through the clubhead and up the shaft.  The reason why some of the feel is muffled and lost in a casting is because of the air pockets and the jagged grain of the metal.  Forged, on the other hand, has no air pockets and the grain is uniform due to the forging process.

I have a few sets of forged irons and they all feel different on poor hits and solid hits. Sometimes it's as simple as the leading edge or the grips. A more slightly curved sole and rounded leading edge always feels the best on average contact, but since there's not as much difference between poor shots and pured shots, the pure ones don't stand out. I think that's why guys playing small headed forged blades rave about reaching nirvana on pured shots - because the less than perfect shots feel so gross. At least for beginners. Beginners would do well to get something that feels "okay" on most shots and let their divots and ball flight be their guide. Golf is a lifelong pursuit and there's plenty of time for punishing yourself later on.

Regarding multi material "players irons" with vibration dampening technology stamped as "forged" (and the players using them raving on about being able to feel the difference between "cast and forged irons"), well that's just pure comedy right there. Yeah Titleist AP2 fans, I'm talking about you.

[szaino]

Many of the differences between forged and cast irons that have been mentioned here are true ie different molecular structure etc.

The simple fact of the matter is that none of this translates to any real difference at the playing level. In other words, if you had an identical club made as both a forging and also as a casting, the ball would react identically to the same swing and there would be no perceptible difference (feel) at the human level.

Golf companies, like any other company trying to market their products, frequently draw upon obscure proprietary differences to differentiate their product and create a demand through its benefits.

Frequently the differences are real, the benefits and claims are a figment of the imagination.

[Shorty]

Originally Posted by TitleistWI

The reason why some of the feel is muffled and lost in a casting is because of the air pockets and the jagged grain of the metal.  Forged, on the other hand, has no air pockets and the grain is uniform due to the forging process.

You keep quotimng Mizuno's advertising BS as if it is fact!

Their billets are extruded from guess what? MOLTEN STEEL. They have air pockets. The forging might move the air pockets around a bit.

[GaijinGolfer]

Originally Posted by Shorty

You keep quotimng Mizuno's advertising BS as if it is fact!

Their billets are extruded from guess what? MOLTEN STEEL. They have air pockets. The forging might move the air pockets around a bit.

Ummm, Im not quoting Mizuno's marketing.  Im quoting what I learned in college in metalurgy class.  All you would need to do is spend 5 seconds on a simple Google search to look for cross sections of metal to see the differences in air pockets from cast to forged.  Thats why forged items are heavier than their cast counterparts.  Id love to see all these, "air pockets" in forged metals because guess what?  They dont exist.

You are right, billet bars do start out as castings but as Ive said repeatedly, the forging process works those air pockets out of the metal.  Forging always, always, always, always, always results in a higher quality product.  Check out Japanese market clubs sometime.  People are willing to pay more for a higher quality product and guess what?  Everything this forged.  Even woods have forged faces in many cases.  In Japan Taylormade sells a driver with a forged face and it actually outperforms the R11S and RBZ drivers.

If you want to tell yourself that forged or cast doesnt matter thats cool but that doesnt make it the truth and those of us who understand metal and how it works know better.

[cmanno]

Mizuno's do feel like no other brand..... Hands down, I have akways played Mizuno's at home and when traveling used whatever rentals were supplied. Taylormade and Callaway mostly. Both great clubs with hot faces that hit the ball the same or longer but did not have the feel you get from Mizuno's. plus they have the best finish available out there.