Lance Armstrong - about time too!

[Beachcomber]

Originally Posted by Kapanda

IQ2 debate on whether PEDs should be accepted.

What I can't understand, honestly, is why people even care in the first freakin place!

People care because they grow up watching their favorite sport/athlete set a record.  They associate that record as their generation.  And then when they see a new athlete come up and break it... And then later you find that the athlete who broke the record was using PED's... The older generation feels cheated.  Think back to the home run race with Mark McGwire and Sammy Sosa.  That was one of the most exciting times in baseball history... And then the sport - and those athletes involved were impacted significantly after they allowed and broke Aaron's record.

Right or wrong... That's the beef that people have with PED's.  For me... I look at it as records are meant to be broken.  And I'm sure even the athletes of yesteryear - who were originally setting those records were using some form of PED's to get an advantage during their day.  It just wasn't reported or investigated like what is found in today's 24hr around the clock media circus.

[Beachcomber]

Originally Posted by boogielicious

You have an excellent point, but why stop there.  The was no testing for the drug-du-joir when Indurain was racing.  He was certainly at another level.  How about Fignon and LeMond?  LeMond gets shot, stinks all year yet wins the TdF in grand fashion (and claims it was tri-bars).  Hinault?  5 time champ and many one day classics.  What did he use?.  Merckx?  Greatest of all time, but must have been dirty.  They used amphetamines back then.  Anquetil and Coppi, cocaine was used back then.  Maybe WADA could dig up their bodies and run some tests.

How about Derek Jeter?  Nobody could be at that level for that long without HGH.  He has been tested maybe a half dozen times in his career, but I'm sure he could get around that.

Bottom line is that Armstrong has been tested far more times than anyone ever in cycling and possible ever in any sport.  They went out of their way to test him over 30 times in 2009 in out-of-competition testing, 30 times!.  This doesn't include the 21 tests during the TdF.  And yet he keeps passing the tests.  (the corticosteroid was from a chamois creme approved by the TdF before the start).

Sometimes you just have to accept the simplest solution to a question.

Bosox fan calling out a Yankee HoF for PED's?  Classic.

[boogielicious]

Beachcomber,

I was making a point about accusation.  I don't personally think Jeter has done anything or Merckx or Hinault or any of them.  I today's media world, you are guilty once you are accused.  That is all it takes.

Now I will accuse Bob Costas of being an insufferable puke.  Maybe that will stick!

[Matt Filroy]

It's not the first time he was accused of doping.......doesn't make it true.

[Shorty]

No more support from the true believers?

Very quiet, or is it the middle of the night there?

He even loses points for using the term "going forward" in his BS "statement".

[jamo]

Are they going to start passing his medals down the line? How many of the runners-up were doping too? It would be funny if the guy who finished in 7th winds up with it. :-D

[x129]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Doping_at_the_Tour_de_France#2005_Tour_de_France .   Go down the top 10 lists and see how many of the names have zero links to doping. 2005 is pretty epic in that everyone in the top 10 is sketchy. Of the 2 innocent guys, one was coached by Ferrari (i.e. who has had a zillion clients admit to doping) and the other tested positive and was then acquited.

Originally Posted by jamo

Are they going to start passing his medals down the line? How many of the runners-up were doping too? It would be funny if the guy who finished in 7th winds up with it.

[0ldblu3]

I looks like Armstrong is just going to say "I'm tired of fighting these allegations, if they want to strip me of these victories fine. You all saw what I did". That way it is left up to each of us individually to choose what we believe. We will never know definitively.

Has golf been affected by a PED scandal? I don't recall any, but I'll admit it hasn't been on my radar.

[rustyredcab]

Originally Posted by Shorty

No more support from the true believers?

Very quiet, or is it the middle of the night there?

He even loses points for using the term "going forward" in his BS "statement".

I support him. I can imagine finally giving up the fight. I have been involved in a business legal battle over a name that went go on and on and on. We were right but the fight kept costing money and the judges would not through out the case even though there was virtually no way we could loose.  One day you wake up and realize that the next huge chunk of legal fees will win you what? We finally gave up and just changed the name of the company.

Not the same as this doping charge but I can understand finally just giving up to save the time and effort of a fight that will never end.

[newtogolf]

Guilty until proven innocent, seems to be the method USADA uses to get what they want.

[iacas]

One of the last sports in the world I care about is cycling, but Shorty, I don't think he's admitted any guilt at all. They've kept coming after him despite no real evidence except a bunch of other bitter cyclists making accusations as part of a plea or to soften the blow they've taken. I'd probably give up at some point too.

That's how I see it, as someone who doesn't give a rat's ass about cycling and someone who hates cheating at sports.

[newtogolf]

Exactly on point.  Legal representation isn't neither free or cheap in this country, especially not for the level of legal expertise and expert witnesses that's required to defend such a case.

How many times can Lance be expected to defend himself from accusations?  He's fought his accusers numerous times in the past and won.  At this point I don't blame him for just caving as going through all the time and expense defending himself yet again doesn't ensure he won't face new accusers next year or the year after.

The Justice system hardly seems just, innocent until proven guilty or guilty until proven innocent is all dependant on who you are and who sits in the position of being politically correct.  Ryan Braun is absolved of all PED's charges because his sample sat in the testers home for two days but Armstrong has to defend himself against samples from many years ago that no one can even verify the chain of custody on.

Originally Posted by iacas

One of the last sports in the world I care about is cycling, but Shorty, I don't think he's admitted any guilt at all. They've kept coming after him despite no real evidence except a bunch of other bitter cyclists making accusations as part of a plea or to soften the blow they've taken. I'd probably give up at some point too.

That's how I see it, as someone who doesn't give a rat's ass about cycling and someone who hates cheating at sports.

[GaijinGolfer]

This whole deal kind of leaves a sour taste in my mouth.  If the USADA is so convinced that he doped, wheres the positive test result at?  IMO, this had turned into a witchhunt where the USADA was never going to stop until they busted Armstrong and he finally got sick of it and said enough is enough.

Thats not to say that he didnt dope.  Afterall, several of his former colleges came foreward and said he doped and he did beat other riders who were doping but we are also supposed to be living in a country where you are innocent until proven guility and the USADA never put forward any evidence that he did cheat.  All they have is word of mouth from former colleges who got busted and who, you could contend, wanted to drag Armstrong down with them.

[Shorty]

This whole deal kind of leaves a sour taste in my mouth.  If the USADA is so convinced that he doped, wheres the positive test result at?  IMO, this had turned into a witchhunt where the USADA was never going to stop until they busted Armstrong and he finally got sick of it and said enough is enough. Thats not to say that he didnt dope.  Afterall, several of his former colleges came foreward and said he doped and he did beat other riders who were doping but we are also supposed to be living in a country where you are innocent until proven guility and the USADA never put forward any evidence that he did cheat.  All they have is word of mouth from former colleges who got busted and who, you could contend, wanted to drag Armstrong down with them.

USADA has a ton of evidence, Armstrong knows it and chose a path that he thinks does him least harm, rather than being obliterated at arbitration. As usual, he takes the moral high ground, uses terms like "witch hunt" and people who bought into the fairytale refuse to admit they were fooled. Of course they were all doping, but it doesn't mean it's OK for Armstrong to arrogantly lie all this time. Imagine Tiger woods agreeing to be stripped of all his Majors because he was "tired" of fighting a cause where he believed there was no evidence against him. If Armstrong had chosen to go to arbitration he would have been proven a thousand times to be a worse fraud than he is now, which is why he chose this cowardly path.

[sean_miller]

Originally Posted by newtogolf

Exactly on point.  Legal representation isn't neither free or cheap in this country, especially not for the level of legal expertise and expert witnesses that's required to defend such a case.

How many times can Lance be expected to defend himself from accusations?  He's fought his accusers numerous times in the past and won.  At this point I don't blame him for just caving as going through all the time and expense defending himself yet again doesn't ensure he won't face new accusers next year or the year after.

The Justice system hardly seems just, innocent until proven guilty or guilty until proven innocent is all dependant on who you are and who sits in the position of being politically correct.  Ryan Braun is absolved of all PED's charges because his sample sat in the testers home for two days but Armstrong has to defend himself against samples from many years ago that no one can even verify the chain of custody on.

Quote:

Originally Posted by iacas

One of the last sports in the world I care about is cycling, but Shorty, I don't think he's admitted any guilt at all. They've kept coming after him despite no real evidence except a bunch of other bitter cyclists making accusations as part of a plea or to soften the blow they've taken. I'd probably give up at some point too.

That's how I see it, as someone who doesn't give a rat's ass about cycling and someone who hates cheating at sports.

I could probably not care any less about the Tour de France, but care to submit that bolded sentence to the grammar thread?

[newtogolf]

That's what happens when you type faster than you think and try to combine multiple thoughts.  I hope I win

Originally Posted by sean_miller

I could probably not care any less about the Tour de France, but care to submit that bolded sentence to the grammar thread?

Legal representation isn't neither free or cheap in this country, especially not for the level of legal expertise and expert witnesses that's required to defend such a case.

[rustyredcab]

Imagine being tested over and over, including awakened in the middle of the night without notice, for years and years and then being pursued for years and years after you retire. What does he win if cleared this time? This is not a criminal charge like Roger Clemens. Armstrong can simply decide enough is enough -- you win -- leave me alone. He's been cleared hundreds of times but it has not put an end to the investigations and accusations against him. Do you believe him more after he's been cleared? The pursuit keeps going and going. The truth does not change. He is either guilty and they have not proved it for over a decade, or he is not.

Those who can not accept his freak of nature physiology will never believe he is clean. And for some reason, the USADA has been on this guy since he first started doing well after the cancer sidelined him. He has been drug tested more than any athlete in history and never failed a test.

[Shorty]

Originally Posted by rustyredcab

Imagine being tested over and over, including awakened in the middle of the night without notice, for years and years and then being pursued for years and years after you retire. What does he win if cleared this time? This is not a criminal charge like Roger Clemens. Armstrong can simply decide enough is enough -- you win -- leave me alone. He's been cleared hundreds of times but it has not put an end to the investigations and accusations against him. Do you believe him more after he's been cleared? The pursuit keeps going and going. The truth does not change. He is either guilty and they have not proved it for over a decade, or he is not.

Those who can not accept his freak of nature physiology will never believe he is clean. And for some reason, the USADA has been on this guy since he first started doing well after the cancer sidelined him. He has been drug tested more than any athlete in history and never failed a test.

Why don't you just cut and paste his press release.