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@Golfingdad

Any thoughts you'd like to share about your work on flattening the shaft on the downswing? @Abu3baid and I seem to be working on similar feels, I'm happy with my progress and the feels that are getting me there but it would be interesting to know what's working for you.

Well @Ernest Jones , the feels that I'm trying to use are the revving motion, and also Erik's suggestion to you that you feel like the clubhead will hit your right ankle on the way down.  I like the revving because it affects so many other things in a good way.  The left wrist becomes straight instead of cupped (perhaps even a little bowed), consequently the right elbow becomes a little more pitched (Side note:  I've slacked off with the elbow work a bit but the Pipoe is now back in the trunk :)) and stays at least even with, and hopefully lower than, the left, and then on the downswing, that leads into the other feel ... of trying to get the clubhead closer to the right leg.

That is one of my priorities right now, but its slightly secondary, at the moment, to the "straight legs at impact" I'm working on.  I went to the range at lunch today and did the drill as before, but with the specific sensation of flexing the glutes as well.  It worked pretty well.  In fact, with the last couple of balls and a 6-iron, I hit some full shots with only that one feel (of flexing the glutes) and nothing else.  I wasn't thinking about jumping, straightening, revving, anything, just flexing the glutes, and those were the 5 best balls I hit all day.

I frequently have good range sessions ... where I'm able to go slow and take a lot of practice swings and do drills, etc, etc.  However, I have some trouble transferring that to the course often because (I know this sounds funny, but its relative) everything is going so fast.  It would be nice to find a simple swing thought (like "flex glutes") that could help me transition quickly from the range to the course.

Oh, and one other thing:  My long clubs, specifically driver and 3-wood, seem to have taken a turn for the better over the course of my last round and last couple of weeks at the range.  The wild, wild misses have GREATLY diminished.  I am very, very encouraged lately. :beer:

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Well @Ernest Jones , the feels that I'm trying to use are the revving motion, and also Erik's suggestion to you that you feel like the clubhead will hit your right ankle on the way down.  I like the revving because it affects so many other things in a good way.  The left wrist becomes straight instead of cupped (perhaps even a little bowed), consequently the right elbow becomes a little more pitched (Side note:  I've slacked off with the elbow work a bit but the Pipoe is now back in the trunk :)) and stays at least even with, and hopefully lower than, the left, and then on the downswing, that leads into the other feel ... of trying to get the clubhead closer to the right leg. That is one of my priorities right now, but its slightly secondary, at the moment, to the "straight legs at impact" I'm working on.  I went to the range at lunch today and did the drill as before, but with the specific sensation of flexing the glutes as well.  It worked pretty well.  In fact, with the last couple of balls and a 6-iron, I hit some full shots with only that one feel (of flexing the glutes) and nothing else.  I wasn't thinking about jumping, straightening, revving, anything, just flexing the glutes, and those were the 5 best balls I hit all day. I frequently have good range sessions ... where I'm able to go slow and take a lot of practice swings and do drills, etc, etc.  However, I have some trouble transferring that to the course often because (I know this sounds funny, but its relative) everything is going so fast.  It would be nice to find a simple swing thought (like "flex glutes") that could help me transition quickly from the range to the course. Oh, and one other thing:  My long clubs, specifically driver and 3-wood, seem to have taken a turn for the better over the course of my last round and last couple of weeks at the range.  The wild, wild misses have GREATLY diminished.  I am very, very encouraged lately.:beer:

Awesome. I really like the revving feel too and agree that it impacts a lot of other elements too. One of those elements, for me at least, is that because I need something to rev around I've gotten much better extensor action because of the extra attention to the hands and increasing the pressure off the right palm into my left hand. Also noticed that the rolling under (rev) feel really forces the elbow to be more pitched. Good stuff. I'm very encouraged lately too! :beer:

Yours in earnest, Jason.
Call me Ernest, or EJ or Ernie.

PSA - "If you find yourself in a hole, STOP DIGGING!"

My Whackin' Sticks: :cleveland: 330cc 2003 Launcher 10.5*  :tmade: RBZ HL 3w  :nickent: 3DX DC 3H, 3DX RC 4H  :callaway: X-22 5-AW  :nike:SV tour 56* SW :mizuno: MP-T11 60* LW :bridgestone: customized TD-03 putter :tmade:Penta TP3   :aimpoint:

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One of those elements, for me at least, is that because I need something to rev around I've gotten much better extensor action because of the extra attention to the hands and increasing the pressure off the right palm into my left hand.

:8) I feel silly because I should, but ... I don't know what this means.  Easy to explain?

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I feel silly because I should, but ... I don't know what this means.  Easy to explain?

Basically pressure point #1, where the right hand comes into contact with the top of the left hand. The golfer keeps his left arm straight by "pushing" PP#1 with his right hand/arm. Could be a good drill/feel for someone who over-flexes their right arm.

Mike McLoughlin

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:8)    I feel silly because I should, but ... I don't know what this means.  Easy to explain?

Straight left arm. Edit* just saw mvmac answered first. Yeah, that fact that I'm aware of what my hands and wrists will be doing in transition I seem to get into a better position as a byproduct.

Yours in earnest, Jason.
Call me Ernest, or EJ or Ernie.

PSA - "If you find yourself in a hole, STOP DIGGING!"

My Whackin' Sticks: :cleveland: 330cc 2003 Launcher 10.5*  :tmade: RBZ HL 3w  :nickent: 3DX DC 3H, 3DX RC 4H  :callaway: X-22 5-AW  :nike:SV tour 56* SW :mizuno: MP-T11 60* LW :bridgestone: customized TD-03 putter :tmade:Penta TP3   :aimpoint:

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Well @Ernest Jones , the feels that I'm trying to use are the revving motion, and also Erik's suggestion to you that you feel like the clubhead will hit your right ankle on the way down.  I like the revving because it affects so many other things in a good way.  The left wrist becomes straight instead of cupped (perhaps even a little bowed), consequently the right elbow becomes a little more pitched (Side note:  I've slacked off with the elbow work a bit but the Pipoe is now back in the trunk :)) and stays at least even with, and hopefully lower than, the left, and then on the downswing, that leads into the other feel ... of trying to get the clubhead closer to the right leg.

I have a bit to say about all of this as well - namely the angle at which the arms come down.

It's kind of related to this, kind of not. I'll explain more later. I have to figure out how to illustrate it, ideally without making a bunch of swings to try to show off what I mean.

Erik J. Barzeski —  I knock a ball. It goes in a gopher hole. 🏌🏼‍♂️
Director of Instruction Golf Evolution • Owner, The Sand Trap .com • AuthorLowest Score Wins
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I have a bit to say about all of this as well - namely the angle at which the arms come down. It's kind of related to this, kind of not. I'll explain more later. I have to figure out how to illustrate it, ideally without making a bunch of swings to try to show off what I mean.

Good stuff, I'll be camping out in Gdaddy's swing thread waiting for this little nugget of gold.

Yours in earnest, Jason.
Call me Ernest, or EJ or Ernie.

PSA - "If you find yourself in a hole, STOP DIGGING!"

My Whackin' Sticks: :cleveland: 330cc 2003 Launcher 10.5*  :tmade: RBZ HL 3w  :nickent: 3DX DC 3H, 3DX RC 4H  :callaway: X-22 5-AW  :nike:SV tour 56* SW :mizuno: MP-T11 60* LW :bridgestone: customized TD-03 putter :tmade:Penta TP3   :aimpoint:

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Good stuff, I'll be camping out in Gdaddy's swing thread waiting for this little nugget of gold.

I started writing the thread, then realized I couldn't really finish it without any good examples.

Basically, consider how we measure "A6." We want the clubhead to be inside the hands (or online with the hands, or whatever). Yet what determines this? Yes, where the clubhead is, but also… where the hands are.

Let's take a look at these pictures:

In this picture, I've drawn a line down Grant and Tiger's lead arm. It connects their hand to their shoulder. Simple as that. It's just the base measurement.

Given that both players are going to strike the ball, this will be our "baseline" idea.

In this next picture, pretend both players pivot more by this point in their swings. This would put their lead shoulders where I've drawn new lines, and we'll pretend their hands stay in the same place. The measurement of their lead arm would change, though their swing may be pretty similar (in terms of club path, etc.).

But what if they swung the way they normally do, but swung their hands away from their bodies more? If they still want to hit the golf ball, they'd have to keep the clubhead tracking the same path, and it might look like this (arm, shaft, clubface leading edge):

And if they swung their hands closer to their bodies, something a bit like this:

In other words, if you swing your arms very vertically, the clubhead will almost surely "tip out" or get outside the hands because you look more like the last pictures, and because you still want to make contact with the golf ball , you need to send something "out" to the golf ball. So the club tips out. Otherwise you'd miss to the inside of the ball every time.

Or if you swing your hands way out, the clubhead will often look like it's well inside your hands because it has to stay in there, otherwise you'd swing right over the outside or top of the golf ball.


The simple takeaway is this: if you're struggling with A6 and the clubhead wants to tip out, take a look at how steep the angle of your lead arm is. You may need to feel like you're swinging your hands farther out away from your body (or out over the top of the golf ball or something) in order to make the club shaft lay down because you'll still want to make contact with the golf ball. If the club still tips out with your hands farther out away from you, you'd miss the ball.

I'll have to make a video eventually (pester me to do it when I'm with Mike in San Diego), but that's the gist of it.

  • Upvote 1

Erik J. Barzeski —  I knock a ball. It goes in a gopher hole. 🏌🏼‍♂️
Director of Instruction Golf Evolution • Owner, The Sand Trap .com • AuthorLowest Score Wins
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I started writing the thread, then realized I couldn't really finish it without any good examples. Basically, consider how we measure "A6." We want the clubhead to be inside the hands (or online with the hands, or whatever). Yet what determines this? Yes, where the clubhead is, but also… where the hands are. Let's take a look at these pictures: In this picture, I've drawn a line down Grant and Tiger's lead arm. It connects their hand to their shoulder. Simple as that. It's just the base measurement. [URL=http://thesandtrap.com/content/type/61/id/91107/] [/URL] Given that both players are going to strike the ball, this will be our "baseline" idea. In this next picture, pretend both players pivot more by this point in their swings. This would put their lead shoulders where I've drawn new lines, and we'll pretend their hands stay in the same place. The measurement of their lead arm would change, though their swing may be pretty similar (in terms of club path, etc.). [URL=http://thesandtrap.com/content/type/61/id/91108/] [/URL] But what if they swung the way they normally do, but swung their hands away from their bodies more? If they still want to hit the golf ball, they'd have to keep the clubhead tracking the same path, and it might look like this (arm, shaft, clubface leading edge): [URL=http://thesandtrap.com/content/type/61/id/91109/] [/URL] And if they swung their hands closer to their bodies, something a bit like this: [URL=http://thesandtrap.com/content/type/61/id/91110/] [/URL] In other words, if you swing your arms very vertically, the clubhead will almost surely "tip out" or get outside the hands because you look more like the last pictures, and because you still want to make contact with the golf ball , you need to send something "out" to the golf ball. So the club tips out. Otherwise you'd miss to the inside of the ball every time. Or if you swing your hands way out, the clubhead will often look like it's well inside your hands because it has to stay in there, otherwise you'd swing right over the outside or top of the golf ball. [rule] The simple takeaway is this: if you're struggling with A6 and the clubhead wants to tip out, take a look at how steep the angle of your lead arm is. You may need to feel like you're swinging your hands farther out away from your body (or out over the top of the golf ball or something) in order to make the club shaft lay down because you'll still want to make contact with the golf ball. If the club still tips out with your hands farther out away from you, you'd miss the ball. I'll have to make a video eventually (pester me to do it when I'm with Mike in San Diego), but that's the gist of it.

Wow. Talk about food for thought. You certainly don't need validation from me but I just want to say that you are really, really, really good at what you do! :-)

Yours in earnest, Jason.
Call me Ernest, or EJ or Ernie.

PSA - "If you find yourself in a hole, STOP DIGGING!"

My Whackin' Sticks: :cleveland: 330cc 2003 Launcher 10.5*  :tmade: RBZ HL 3w  :nickent: 3DX DC 3H, 3DX RC 4H  :callaway: X-22 5-AW  :nike:SV tour 56* SW :mizuno: MP-T11 60* LW :bridgestone: customized TD-03 putter :tmade:Penta TP3   :aimpoint:

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Wow. Talk about food for thought.

You certainly don't need validation from me but I just want to say that you are really, really, really good at what you do!

Definitely ... good stuff!  Thanks!

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Wow. Talk about food for thought.

You certainly don't need validation from me but I just want to say that you are really, really, really good at what you do!

100% agree on that. Makes sense to me, though a video is always welcome :)

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I'll have to make a video eventually (pester me to do it when I'm with Mike in San Diego), but that's the gist of it.

Noted

Mike McLoughlin

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Really annoying, but I have apparently acquired the disease where you cannot transfer your driving range swing to the course.  I hate this.

Also, I am in a period where I hit the ball entirely too low.  I'm wondering if simply moving the handle back a little at setup might help me hit the ball a little higher??

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Really annoying, but I have apparently acquired the disease where you cannot transfer your driving range swing to the course.  I hate this.

Also, I am in a period where I hit the ball entirely too low.  I'm wondering if simply moving the handle back a little at setup might help me hit the ball a little higher??

Good. @mvmac and I have timed it out perfectly then, with only a few days to go…

(More ass squeezing, "dick in the sink", "hump the giraffe" - and either commit to scoring or "practicing your swing" in rounds on the course, but not both).

Erik J. Barzeski —  I knock a ball. It goes in a gopher hole. 🏌🏼‍♂️
Director of Instruction Golf Evolution • Owner, The Sand Trap .com • AuthorLowest Score Wins
Golf Digest "Best Young Teachers in America" 2016-17 & "Best in State" 2017-20 • WNY Section PGA Teacher of the Year 2019 :edel: :true_linkswear:

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"Dink in the sink" ??

:bugout:

Lol, I now know far too much about Gdaddy's priorities.

Yours in earnest, Jason.
Call me Ernest, or EJ or Ernie.

PSA - "If you find yourself in a hole, STOP DIGGING!"

My Whackin' Sticks: :cleveland: 330cc 2003 Launcher 10.5*  :tmade: RBZ HL 3w  :nickent: 3DX DC 3H, 3DX RC 4H  :callaway: X-22 5-AW  :nike:SV tour 56* SW :mizuno: MP-T11 60* LW :bridgestone: customized TD-03 putter :tmade:Penta TP3   :aimpoint:

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"Dink in the sink" ??

Yep. :) Powerful imagery…

Erik J. Barzeski —  I knock a ball. It goes in a gopher hole. 🏌🏼‍♂️
Director of Instruction Golf Evolution • Owner, The Sand Trap .com • AuthorLowest Score Wins
Golf Digest "Best Young Teachers in America" 2016-17 & "Best in State" 2017-20 • WNY Section PGA Teacher of the Year 2019 :edel: :true_linkswear:

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Yep. :) Powerful imagery…

I guess it is, just think about it, right before swinging saying to your self ok dick in the sink, or when the wife asks, hey what are you working on, oh nothing honey just making sure I get my dick in the sink after A6.5!

:adams: / :tmade: / :edel: / :aimpoint: / :ecco: / :bushnell: / :gamegolf: / 

Eyad

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"Dink in the sink" ??

Lol, I now know far too much about Gdaddy's priorities.

LOL ... yeah, this is the first time I heard that one.

Yep. :) Powerful imagery…

I'll say.  Hey, if it works I'll do it!  (Not the giraffe, but the sink)  Gotta draw the line somewhere.

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    • I'm not an "official" instructor but I've been helping people for a few years now. I find that most beginners never get taught a proper concept of how the swing works. I also find that most people need a better understanding of what the arms and hands do before even working on the grip or the rest of the body. This is because what your concept of how the arms work through the downswing will dictate how strong or weak your grip must be. And if your arms work correctly then you can get away with a lot of variation in the lower body and still hit the ball decently. This will be long by the way... now...I get technical because...well...if you're writing it, you have to make it understandable. So let's understand the swing structure of the left or lead arm. The clubhead is controlled by the left hand, the left hand is controlled by the left wrist which is made up of the two bones of the forearm; the ulna closest to the pinky finger and the radius closest to the thumb. The forearm is attached to but can work independently of the humorous or upper arm which ends at the shoulder joint. That's the structure you are working with. Now how each section of that structure can work in different ways so let's talk about them starting at the upper arm. You may have heard people use the term "external shoulder rotation." It's usually used in reference to the right arm but that's okay you need to understand it in the left arm as well. First off...that's not a correct term. The shoulder is a complex structure of three bones; the clavicle in the upper chest/neck area, the scapula or shoulder blade that glides across the back and the end of the humorous bone that is the upper arm. So when you hear that term what they really are saying is "external rotation of the humerus." A simple way to understand this is to think about arm wrestling. If you are arm wresting someone with your elbow on a table you are trying to force your opponents arm into external rotation while your upper arm would be internally rotating. If you are losing the wrestling match you will find that while your elbow stays in place, your forearm and hand will be pushed back behind the elbow as your humerus externally rotates. So in the golf swing we don't want to be the winner of the arm wrestling match... at any point in time! Both upper arms need to externally rotate. The right upper arm externally rotates in the backswing and stays in that position through impact or for some people just before but very close to impact. The left arm must externally rotate in the downswing from impact through the finish. Some people choose to set-up with both upper arms externally rotated...think elbows pointed at the hips or biceps up. Others will start with just the right arm in this position...some people describe it as the "giving blood" position. 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When your lead forearm is in pronation (knuckles up) the ulna will be on the left side of the radius. In supination (knuckles down the ulna rotates under the radius and the radius is now on the left side of the ulna. Very important that you relate this to the position of the ulna. At the top of the backswing you should be in a position where you feel that the knuckles of the left hand are pointed to the sky. As you rotate your body open and your chest pulls your arms down and into impact you will need to be aware that your ulna stays on the left side of the radius as long as possible. This is the position instructors are trying to have you achieve by pulling the butt of the club into an invisible wall past your left leg while maintaining the 90 degree angle formed by the shaft and your forearm. You've probably seen or heard of that drill as we all have over the years. Now here is the IMPORTANT part that no one seems to ever speak of...what happens from there!?! From that position...ulna on the left side of the radius, shaft and the forearm at a 90 degree angle, hands directly over the ball...you have two choices. 1) You can keep the ulna traveling toward the target on the left side of the radius and only release (unhinge) the wrists to lower the clubhead down into the ball or 2) while you unhinge your left wrist you can rotate your left forearm from the pronated position (knuckles up) to the supinated position (knuckles down) and let the ulna rotate under and eventually to the right side of the radius. If you choose to release the club with method 1 you will need a strong grip. The clubface will stay stable and square to the target throughout the swing but you probably will lose distance and have a very spinny ball flight. If you choose to release the club with method 2 you will probably require a much weaker grip as the clubhead will be less stable as it closes down coming into impact. This method requires more timing but results in more power through impact and usually more distance. You may also hook the ball if you start with too strong of a grip or a closed clubface at address. Method 2 is what most pros use but not all. Method 1 is what causes most people to hit weak, spinny slices and requires an unusually strong grip because with method 1 the left forearm has a tendency to open more coming into impact where the ulna stays in front of the radius too long.    Here's the catch...you need to learn both releases. Release 1 is how you want to use your wedges when you want to make sure the bounce interacts with the turf or if you need to hit a cut from left to right around a tree. You'll get more height and more spin with release 1. Release 2 will let the leading edge tear through the turf taking a nice crisp divot and can be used to hook a ball from right to left. Congratulations to anyone that read through all of this! I believe that once your brain understands precisely how it needs to control the different parts of your body it can do it repetitively on command. Your swing will repeat and not fall apart from day to day. Learn how you want to use your forearms and you can choose your grip and clubface position at address. Either method will work and both methods are used by the best players in the world for different shots.
    • Day 330 - Mostly just partial swings today, so I could really focus on exaggerating my hips towards the target in my finish. 
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    • If I was going to try to help someone fix a low snap hook without actually seeing their swing I would have to tell them to break down the problem into pieces. See if you can fix the "low" part of the problem first. A low ball flight tells me you are probably swinging level or hitting down on the ball instead of hitting up on it. Try teeing the ball higher than you are comfortable and put the ball up in your stance a little further up than comfortable...try putting it off your left heal or even the left toe. Try to feel like your club head is swinging up through impact. Try that first and see if it gets you to a high snap hook or a high pull hook.    If you want to address the hook part of the swing you are going to have to look at two areas of the swing as well as your concept of what the arms and hands do through impact. I love talking through this stuff with people but I'll only go into it further if you really want to go down that rabbit hole...you would have to say so. Swing well my friend!
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