To Golfers Who Score in the 70s - What's Your Story?

[Fourputt]

  inthehole said:

Quote:

Originally Posted by iacas

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ferguson

5 ways to know whether you should go for a par-5 in two shots.

If you can’t make up your mind, lay up.

If you can’t hit the green 7 out of 10 times, lay up.

If you have a clear image of yourself hitting the green, go for it.

If reward outweighs the risk, and you can hit the green 7 out of 10 times, go for it.

Do what you think is equitable in terms of ability.

7 out of 10 times is far, far too high a bar.

I'll take 30 yards short in the rough or the fairway 10 out of 10 times over being in the middle of the fairway 100-110 yards out almost every time.

We lay all this out in the book and DVDs we wrote. Once a golfer understands his Shot Zones, he can build a Decision Maps, factor in some things like (is he well above or below his typical score for the day, how's he feel about this particular shot, how's he hitting his 3-hybrid that day, etc.), and make a good decision.

Generally speaking, though, you seem to place less value than you should on getting close to the green, @Ferguson. It's not an either/or, "7/10" type of situation. I'd rather be anywhere near the green (on grass or sand) in two than 107 yards back in two almost every time.

wow - this is eye opening.    I'm actually pretty decent out of the sand, but won't pull the 3w or other long club if I think there's a pretty good chance I'll run it up & find my way into the sand.    I guess the moral is to not be afraid of the sand ??

The moral is to practice bunker shots more.  Do that and you will have no reason to fear them.

  iacas said:

Quote:

Originally Posted by inthehole

wow - this is eye opening.    I'm actually pretty decent out of the sand, but won't pull the 3w or other long club if I think there's a pretty good chance I'll run it up & find my way into the sand.    I guess the moral is to not be afraid of the sand ??

So long as you aren't completely miserable (as in worse than bad) out of the sand, they're not terrible places to be in one stroke under regulation. They're lousy places to play from for your third on a par four or fourth on a par five, and worse than the rough of course, but they're often much better places to play from for your second on a par four or third on a par five than 100 yards back even if it's in the fairway.

There is one par 5 at my former home course which has a cross bunker about 50 yards short of the green.  I always felt that if I had a reasonable shot to clear the irrigation ditch about 30 yards short of the bunker in two that I would take that bunker shot for my third over laying up to 130 yards.  I've made a few birdies from that bunker by opening up my 8I and hitting a normal greenside bunker shot from it.  I've rarely missed my par from that bunker.  What I didn't want was to be in the bunker in 3.

[Ferguson]

  Lihu said:

I would think that that same downslope from 40-60 yards is easier to hit than from 110+ yards, though. 110 yards is an in between yardage for my wedges anyway.

Sand can save you sometimes from a much worse fate. . .

That’s what makes this game so darn puzzling. You would take the shot from the sand and I would pull out my Petron PW, hit it 80% and knock the 110-yarder right on the green. It’s personal preference, kind of like the type of insert in your trainers. Some people like those gummy inserts that make your feet sweat, and still others like the hard sole feel of compacted leather. Don’t look now but we’ve stumbled on another key component of getting to the 70s.

1. Avoid the Big Number

2. Consistency

3. Use personal preference

[Lihu]

  Ferguson said:

Quote:

Originally Posted by Lihu

I would think that that same downslope from 40-60 yards is easier to hit than from 110+ yards, though. 110 yards is an in between yardage for my wedges anyway.

Sand can save you sometimes from a much worse fate. . .

That’s what makes this game so darn puzzling.   You would take the shot from the sand and I would pull out my Petron PW, hit it 80% and knock the 110-yarder right on the green.   It’s personal preference, kind of like the type of insert in your trainers.  Some people like those gummy inserts that make your feet sweat, and still others like the hard sole feel of compacted leather.   Don’t look now but we’ve stumbled on another key component of getting to the 70s.

Avoid the Big Number

Consistency

Use personal preference

There is a 4th category, try to use statistics in your favor . That's my personal preference, I suppose.

[Pretzel]

  Ferguson said:

That’s what makes this game so darn puzzling.  You would take the shot from the sand and I would pull out my Petron PW, hit it 80% and knock the 110-yarder right on the green. It’s personal preference, kind of like the type of insert in your trainers.Some people like those gummy inserts that make your feet sweat, and still others like the hard sole feel of compacted leather. Don’t look now but we’ve stumbled on another key component of getting to the 70s.

[*]Avoid the Big Number

[*] Consistency

[*]Use personal preference

This will be my last post on the matter, but you ARE costing yourself strokes. This is not opinion, but a factual truth. I would bet $100 that your GIR percentage, were I to drop 100 balls at 110 yards for you to hit to as green of average size, doesn't exceed 75%. From 100-125 yards Sergio Garcia only averages 46.67% of GIR (and amazing plays to -.43 strokes relative to par despite that fact). I would be willing to bet $1000 that, barring some crazy bad bunker play or insane put bunker that you have not described yet, you will hit the green more frequently from a greenside bunker than 110 yards out if I were to drop 100 balls in that bunker. It's your game however. If you want to score higher, by all means do so. It makes no difference to me. Just give the strategy we recommend a try sometime in direct comparison to yours. Better yet, hit 20 balls from 110 yards out and 20 from 50 yards out. I bet you'll find out what we're saying is true. All we're trying to do is help you improve your currently-outdated course management strategy.

[rkim291968]

Did folks here considered that some course's bunkers are just too deep, too large, too difficult to get out?   ... and some golfers who break regularly into 70's may not be a good bunker player?   I recently played with 7 HI player and every time a ball went into a bunker, it was double or worse score for him.    One size doesn't fit all IMO.

[Lihu]

  rkim291968 said:

Did folks here considered that some course's bunkers are just too deep, too large, too difficult to get out?   ... and some golfers who break regularly into 70's may not be a good bunker player?   I recently played with 7 HI player and every time a ball went into a bunker, it was double or worse score for him.    One size doesn't fit all IMO.

This is very unlikely.

[Golfingdad]

  rkim291968 said:

Did folks here considered that some course's bunkers are just too deep, too large, too difficult to get out?   ... and some golfers who break regularly into 70's may not be a good bunker player?   One size doesn't fit all IMO.

They're talking in generalities, not specifics.  Generally, closer to the hole is better than farther.  Obviously, if there is a pond closer, then its not better.  That also holds true if there is a pot bunker or if the particular player is shitty in the bunker - i.e. he has a "glaring weakness" - but GENERALLY people are going to end up closer to the hole from ... closer to the hole.

[rkim291968]

  Golfingdad said:

Quote:

Originally Posted by rkim291968

Did folks here considered that some course's bunkers are just too deep, too large, too difficult to get out?   ... and some golfers who break regularly into 70's may not be a good bunker player?   One size doesn't fit all IMO.

They're talking in generalities, not specifics.  Generally, closer to the hole is better than farther.  Obviously, if there is a pond closer, then its not better.  That also holds true if there is a pot bunker or if the particular player is shitty in the bunker - i.e. he has a "glaring weakness" - but GENERALLY people are going to end up closer to the hole from ... closer to the hole.

I thought so.  But sometimes it's hard to discern that from various posts and some posters who makes black or white (and nothing in between) statements.

[iacas]

  rkim291968 said:

I thought so.  But sometimes it's hard to discern that from various posts and some posters who makes black or white (and nothing in between) statements.

Please find a bunch of these "black or white" statements.

I almost always (see, did it just there too) take care to say "generally speaking" or something like @Pretzel said when he said " barring some crazy bad bunker play or insane pot bunker that you have not described yet…".

There are rarely any black/white situations. Apply that going forward, please, and give people here the benefit of the doubt that they're not saying always/never. It can be tedious to keep spelling out that you don't literally mean "always/never" so you may even succeed at finding "a bunch" of those statements with full context shown… but I suspect they're drastically outweighed by the number of posts that hedge their bets and say "generally" or "typically" or "most often" or similar things.

[Ferguson]

In summation: The 5 key components of getting to the 70s.

1. Avoid the Big Number

2. Consistency

3. Use personal preferences

4. Assiduousness in terms of PAR-5 holes

5. Get closer if you can

[Lihu]

  Ferguson said:

In summation: The 5 key components of getting to the 70s.

Avoid the Big Number

Consistency

Use personal preferences

Assiduousness in terms of PAR-5 holes

Get closer if you can

I think we're pretty much in agreement on these, especially the last one.

[DeadMan]

  Ferguson said:

If you can’t make up your mind, lay up.

If you can’t hit the green 7 out of 10 times, lay up.

If you have a clear image of yourself hitting the green, go for it.

If reward outweighs the risk, and you can hit the green 7 out of 10 times, go for it.

Do what you think is equitable in terms of ability.

Not to pile on, but if you obeyed that, you would be laying up with basically every shot on the course. The best PGA tour player last year for GIR was just over 72%. That stat right there is saying that nobody should ever go for the green in 2 on a par 5.That's ridiculous.

Here's my decision tree for going for it on a par 5:

1. Can I reach the green without a significant risk of a penalty stroke?

That's basically it. And I normally hit my 3 wood (maybe 5 wood if the lie is bad) if I can't reach the green on a par 5, assuming there's no risk of a penalty stroke. The reason is that I know I'm better closer to the hole than I am further away from it. And the odds are that you are the same.

That said, I do love playing against people who don't go for par 5s in two ever. While they're laying up to whatever comfortable distance (that always is <100 yards out), I'll get within 30 yards of the green and gain half a stroke on them every time.

[Fourputt]

Quote:

Here's my decision tree for going for it on a par 5:

1. Can I reach the green without a significant risk of a penalty stroke?

That's basically it. And I normally hit my 3 wood (maybe 5 wood if the lie is bad) if I can't reach the green on a par 5, assuming there's no risk of a penalty stroke. The reason is that I know I'm better closer to the hole than I am further away from it. And the odds are that you are the same.

That said, I do love playing against people who don't go for par 5s in two ever. While they're laying up to whatever comfortable distance (that always is <100 yards out), I'll get within 30 yards of the green and gain half a stroke on them every time.

I have one more modification for you:

1. Can I hit as far as I'm capable of hitting, without a significant risk of penalty or trouble? If the answer to that question is "No", then it's time for the next question:
2. "What club (or stroke) will change that answer to yes?"

Never mind actually reaching the green, as I can rarely reach par 5 greens in 2 any more, but I still want to be as close as possible while minimizing the risk of leaving myself in trouble.

[DeadMan]

I think that's a good modification. I'd imagine trees and deep rough would be the things that would cause me the most trouble that wouldn't already be penalties.

Personally, there isn't much trouble that I see around greens that aren't penalties (I have too much experience playing out of deep rough, and rarely play on courses with lots of trees). If I'm near the green, I feel like I should be able to get into the hole in 3 shots 90% of the time, no matter what type of trouble I'm in. Even a bogey in that situation, while annoying, is probably about what I'd get with laying up.

[Ferguson]

Re: If you can’t hit the green 7 out of 10 times, lay up.

It’s important that you all know where this advice came from.

Davis Love III’s dad.

Now, please don’t point the finger at me. I’m not a fan of the Davis Love family trilogy .

I always felt Love III was a bit of a stump in terms of his personality, but I did respect the duo of Love and Couples, but let me be clear - not because of Love III.

[iacas]

  None said:

  Ferguson said:

Re: If you can’t hit the green 7 out of 10 times, lay up.

It’s important that you all know where this advice came from.

Davis Love III’s dad.

So? Just because a former PGA guy who raised a kid who won a major said it doesn't mean it's good advice.

Plenty of famous or well-regarded people have said things which were later shown to be wrong or harmful.

[Fourputt]

  Ferguson said:

Re: If you can’t hit the green 7 out of 10 times, lay up.

It’s important that you all know where this advice came from.

Davis Love III’s dad.

Now, please don’t point the finger at me. I’m not a fan of the Davis Love family trilogy.

I always felt Love III was a bit of a stump in terms of his personality, but I did respect the duo of Love and Couples, but let me be clear - not because of Love III.

As has been said earlier, the very best on Tour only hit greens at a 72% pace.  The typical amateur is going to be a long way short of that.  If I went by that theory, I'd never play for the green.  I mean, how many times can you lay up on one hole?

I might even have to give up the game.

[Ferguson]

  iacas said:

So? Just because a former PGA guy who raised a kid who won a major said it doesn't mean it's good advice.

Plenty of famous or well-regarded people have said things which were later shown to be wrong or harmful.

No, I was just making it clear that it wasn't my advice.