Shaping the Ball

[RonTheSavage]

Great info kind sir!

[GEM57]

Originally Posted by iacas

The grip is one of them. When in the one post I said you had to make your clubface 2° closed to your stance when normally it's 2° open to your stance, you do that by changing where your hands grip the club.

You think you're changing the grip. I see it more as you're just changing your clubface alignments. I could take a super-strong grip and keep the face pointing right of target at setup but it's probably not going to return that way in the course of a swing.

Six of one, half dozen of the other. I talked about grip - but I talked about it by saying clubface.

This is a very helpful post. Our (former) club pro had me trying slight differences in ball position to control shape (no change in swing), which I could get to work a little bit. Seems like that is in your "harder" or "more extreme" (in combo with alignment changes). Then this summer I watched a video suggesting strong and weak grip changes to control the shape...and I guess I knew that this affected the face but in reading your article it wasn't clear to me that you're achieving an open or closed face through grip (not when setting the clubface to the ball).

To clarify (is this correct?):

Open 4° = Weaken grip whatever amount achieves ~4° open at ball strike

Closed 4° = Strengthen grip whatever amount achieves ~4° closed at ball strike

Also...

When you talk about changing alignment at setup, I'm hearing that there is no change in ball position, only a change in aim to the R or L of target. Because changing ball position forward or backward (fade and draw, respectively) adds to shape.

All with the same swing, never changing the stock swing (which I believe in very much, especially for us middle-aged newcomers...I'll never master 250 "different" swings, I think you have to be an adolescent playing all day in the summer to learn that!).

Thus, to get a little bit of shape (assuming a straight neutral shot), use strong or weak grip and body aim, to get more shape, perhaps combine grip and fore-aft alignment. And generally try to keep this stuff to a minimum, primarily hitting one's regular (preferably straight) shot.

One last question:

With higher and higher lofted clubs, I hear people talking about shaping 8, 9, wedges....but mine just go high and straight (which is fine, as it comes down mainly to aim on short approach shots). So I'm thinking that shaping mainly applies to 7 irons and longer?

Thanks for a very useful thread.

[iacas]

Originally Posted by GEM57

To clarify (is this correct?):

Open 4° = Weaken grip whatever amount achieves ~4° open at ball strike

Closed 4° = Strengthen grip whatever amount achieves ~4° closed at ball strike

Also...

When you talk about changing alignment at setup, I'm hearing that there is no change in ball position, only a change in aim to the R or L of target. Because changing ball position forward or backward (fade and draw, respectively) adds to shape.

All with the same swing, never changing the stock swing (which I believe in very much, especially for us middle-aged newcomers...I'll never master 250 "different" swings, I think you have to be an adolescent playing all day in the summer to learn that!).

Thus, to get a little bit of shape (assuming a straight neutral shot), use strong or weak grip and body aim, to get more shape, perhaps combine grip and fore-aft alignment. And generally try to keep this stuff to a minimum, primarily hitting one's regular (preferably straight) shot.

One last question:

With higher and higher lofted clubs, I hear people talking about shaping 8, 9, wedges....but mine just go high and straight (which is fine, as it comes down mainly to aim on short approach shots). So I'm thinking that shaping mainly applies to 7 irons and longer?

In reverse order, yes, it's tough to shape an 8-iron or a 9-iron. You can do it, but it'll require more extreme changes and is typically reserved for "your normal 1-yard draw" (or fade) and getting out of trouble - forcing a 10-yard fade on an 8-iron becomes difficult. It's easier, though, when you've got the shaft leaning forward a bit and have some speed, of course, but if you're flipping a little and swinging your driver at 95 MPH they'll go pretty straight. :)

Yes, you got the rest right. You can combine ball position with grip changes to affect both path (ball position) and face (grip) to produce more of the shots you want. I personally tend to prefer other things before messing with the grip too much because I tend to maintain the same grip - my body doesn't naturally return to a "neutral" position. If I grip it strong, I'll keep it open and if I grip it weak, that encourages me to roll it closed a little, so for me, it's not as predictable for others. MOST people seem to not have the same problem as I do with this, though! :)

[deronsizemore]

Originally Posted by iacas

Pressure Points - For me, I'll commonly feel that I attach my left upper arm more solidly to my chest at setup, ensuring that I'm more likely to keep my arms on my chest during the downswing, which shifts the path left a little. If my left arm "flees" my chest and detaches from my chest, that will send the path right, and I can set up for that by having it less attached at address.

Erik, can you go into more detail about this? I've always been under the impression that maintaining the pressure points under your arms would contribute to a path that's more to the right (not sure why I thought that, but whatever). How, when the left arm detaches from the chest, does that shift the path more right?

I typically practice with a glove under each armpit and that always seems to help me hit some tight little draws.

[iacas]

Originally Posted by deronsizemore

Erik, can you go into more detail about this? I've always been under the impression that maintaining the pressure points under your arms would contribute to a path that's more to the right (not sure why I thought that, but whatever). How, when the left arm detaches from the chest, does that shift the path more right?

I typically practice with a glove under each armpit and that always seems to help me hit some tight little draws.

I'll try the short answer first: if your arms fly off your chest, which direction are your hands going, and thus, which direction is the clubhead going?

Conversely if they stay tight to your chest as your chest turns through the shot, which way are they going?

[CrossGolfPro]

Here's a video:

[deronsizemore]

Originally Posted by iacas

I'll try the short answer first: if your arms fly off your chest, which direction are your hands going, and thus, which direction is the clubhead going?

Conversely if they stay tight to your chest as your chest turns through the shot, which way are they going?

That makes sense Erik. Arms fly off the chest, they can only go to the right, I suppose. Now that I think about it, during my last round I was hitting a lot of over draws. When I'm on the range (with the gloves under each arm) I don't hit many over draws, but on the course, it's my miss if I'm swinging well. So, I assume that the other day, the reason for my over draws is that my arms were flying off my chest and going more right thus more tilt of the spin axis?

[mvmac]

Originally Posted by CrossGolfPro

Here's a video:

No need to turn the arm over to hit a draw, please review the first post.  Ball starts primarily where the face is pointing, so we need a face that is aimed to the right at impact for a draw.  Too much rotation can tend to move the handle back a little from the normal setup position or bring it a little closer to us, it will tend to shift the path a little to the left.

[deronsizemore]

Originally Posted by mvmac

No need to turn the arm over to hit a draw, please review the first post.

Another of my problems. After 20 years or so of reading and being told you have to roll the arms over to get draw spin, it's become a tough habit to break. I'm able to make ball first contact most of the time, but don't maintain the flying wedge for near as long as I need too.

[mvmac]

Originally Posted by deronsizemore

Another of my problems. After 20 years or so of reading and being told you have to roll the arms over to get draw spin, it's become a tough habit to break. I'm able to make ball first contact most of the time, but don't maintain the flying wedge for near as long as I need too.

Wedge, or a flat left wrist just needs to be intact at impact or just slightly after.

[mdl]

Originally Posted by deronsizemore

Erik, can you go into more detail about this? I've always been under the impression that maintaining the pressure points under your arms would contribute to a path that's more to the right (not sure why I thought that, but whatever). How, when the left arm detaches from the chest, does that shift the path more right?

I typically practice with a glove under each armpit and that always seems to help me hit some tight little draws.

Originally Posted by iacas

I'll try the short answer first: if your arms fly off your chest, which direction are your hands going, and thus, which direction is the clubhead going?

Conversely if they stay tight to your chest as your chest turns through the shot, which way are they going?

I'll take a stab at why this might be a bit of common wisdom you heard at some point.

A lot of us have struggled at some point with rolling the wrists early and coming back way under plane.  This can easily cause the lead arm to lose some connection with the chest, and also often results in a down swing reverse of the back swing, over the plane and out to in at impact.  For me at least, thinking about maintaining pressure between the lead arm and the chest means feeling pressure more from the tricep, at least early in the swing (whereas it's only possible to maintain any pressure early with the bicep if you roll a ton early).  That makes it at least uncomfortable, though not technically impossible, to over-roll your wrists so much so early, can help you stay on plane on the back swing, and gives you at least a chance of a straight shot or a draw.

Of course if you keep your arms super tight against the chest through impact it will force more of an out to in plane relative to letting the arms fly off towards impact, but I'd be that as a set up key (maybe along with the "back and up" thought for the back swing), this can help a lot of guys figure out how to hit some draws.  Though without the nuance presented here, if you choose that as a singular focus for a practice session it doesn't lead to lots of pretty draws but to lots of ugly two way misses.

[PhilsRHman]

After all this time trying to grasp the ball flight laws, I FINALLY feel like I grasp them. I think maybe it's the combo of the ball flight chart with the idea of shaping the ball and it all seems to click. Great post Erik. Now I am desperate to get to the driving range. All of a sudden the cut I'd been hitting all year has turned into a pull hook and I guess this should be the first real sense I have of what's going on. For the first 20 years of my golfing life I fought a snap hook and when I was playing well I hit a push hook. Last year I started playing better by squaring off my shoulders and opening my stance a bit (sorry if I'm using the wrong terms) to help my shoulder turn. It led to this little cut, but out of the blue the pull hook has struck.

Well, thanks for the post and I'll have to give this some thought on the next trip to the range.

[bryanblyer]

So as far as Tiger's Swing with Foley, his go to shot being a fade falls under what? Pull Fade? Straight fade? The reason I'm asking because alot of people say slicing happens from a mix of over the top which Tiger looks as if he is doing, as if he is getting more into the target line, and secondly an open club face (which is obvious). I'm on this never ending quest to draw the ball it looks good to my eye but every pro I go see or every good player I play with says play the fade (which is a shot I have a hard time envisioning when standing behind the ball). The Characteristics in Tigers Swing look as if he is pull fading but getting a straight fade result. Please put this to ease in my head. Maybe it will help me see a fade shot better and not fear of the super slice I worked so hard to get rid of.  What is going on here?

[04v8s4]

Tigers rehearsal swings look way over the top. He is fighting off the pull hook. Tigers path during an actual swing is not nearly as exaggerated as in his rehearsal swings.

[golfbarefoot]

I almost never try to hit straight balls. I actually find it easier to try to work the ball into my targets. It's too hard trying to hit it perfectly straight, so I normally work a draw. Lately one thing that has been working for me extremely well, is deliberately swinging slower after I align for draw or even fade. I tend to swing a bit harder to fade it.

[Jakester23]

Erik I kinda redid my swing last year and when I did I got a much more consistent shot shape. Towards the end of the year I was working on trying to hit a draw and never really got the hang of it. I understand what your saying about the setup and starting right of target so many degrees and so on but if I go to the range how do I know what 2 degrees looks or feels like? Id say my natural shot is a straight fade but Ive never messed with the handle location. If you could give me a tip on how to know what 2,4,6 degrees right of target is in real life.

[Zeph]

You can't really pin it down to a few degrees, visually. You just have to work on the different parts and it will come. The clubface angle is something you might have to fiddle around with once you get the slightly in-out swing path. Once you get he swing path going in-out, you can start looking at ball flights and rotating the club slightly at address, or tweaking the grip. From there, you just hit balls and look at the ball flight. Put some alignment sticks on the ground to make sure you know where you are aiming. Give yourself a flag or distance marker on the range as target, alight your sticks toward it and hit balls. When you see the ball start to the right of the target line and draw back onto it, you know it's a push-draw.

[tomvk77]

Had some great fun on the course last week with our teaching pro. ( we had competition training ) at one time he hits his drive down the right in the rough

the hole being a dogleg right he was in serious trouble leaving him a 160 mgr. shot to the green, he had to hit a big slice to get to there. He asked us with

what club can we hit a slice the easiest?? Well i was saying with a club that has not that much loft. Ok he said, so your saying that with this club i can hit a slice the best?

He pulled his driver out off the bag. I said well yes for sure. He made a sort off 3/4 swing with wide open stands, the f... ball ended up just 6 mtr. right off the pin on the green.

This guy is really good in ball shaping. How he does it ??? beats me. If you ask him, well i used to play in the wind a lot, so you get to use all kind off shots.

I saw him hit a ball out off the woods last year with a 6 iron, the ball was not higher in the air than just 1 mtr. but carried 145 mtr. hit the green took another hup and than checked stone dead.

To hit a six iron that low is not the problem but get backspin on it?? simply amazing