Sandbaggers ruin tournaments

[sacm3bill]

Originally Posted by ghalfaire

Quote:

Originally Posted by Fourputt

Explain how you apply an individual handicap in a scramble?    See if you can figure it out without looking at my answer.

At my club they add the two (sometimes four) handicaps and the team handicap is something less than 50% (25% for four) of that (I don't remember the exact percentages.  That calculated team handicap is applied to the team gross score.  This same method is used for Best Ball (Better Ball) team tournaments only the percentages are different than for scramble.

Here's an example of a scramble handicap calculator: http://www.leaderboard.com/SCRAMCAP.HTM It adjusts based on common scramble rules. Not sure if that site provides the math behind the results.

[AmazingWhacker]

Don't forget that people score lower in scramble format just because of the way it works.  Imagine if you gave yourself 4 chances at every shot, choosing the best each time.  You'd probably score a lot lower than normal.  In fact, i recently played a for fun scramble where we legitimately eagled 2 par 5's.  Except for the one long hitter in our group, we have no chance to make eagles ever.  And that long hitter probably lucky to make a couple eagles a season . .let alone 2 in one round.

But - we were not cheating at all.  In fact, we werent even keeping score - we were playing scramble format because one of the players is a really, really high handicapper and this is about the only way for him to get 18 holes completeld in 1 day, lol.

In my opinion, scrambles are always for fun and should never be taken seriously.  If somebody is so lame that they need to cheat at a scramble, then they are probably total losers with no self-esteem and lead terrible little lives.

[zeg]

Originally Posted by x129

As you pointed out match play scoring favors the guys that have blow up holes. Those guys tend to be the high handicappers. Who it hurts is the consistant guys like my Dad who has zero distance these days but  who is a consistant par or bogey on every hole.

This is definitely true. A round usually looks like, "Bogey, Par, Bogey, Bogey, Par, Par, Double, EIGHT, NINE, Par..." My handicap is probably at least 8 strokes higher because of 3 or 4 holes every round. If you took my best dozen holes and multiplied by 1.5 to get an 18-hole score, you'd have a very wrong idea about how well I play.

Originally Posted by AmazingWhacker

In my opinion, scrambles are always for fun and should never be taken seriously.  If somebody is so lame that they need to cheat at a scramble, then they are probably total losers with no self-esteem and lead terrible little lives.

And this is the real truth. Giving serious prizes for a scramble is kind of silly.

[Fourputt]

Originally Posted by zeg

Quote:

Originally Posted by x129

As you pointed out match play scoring favors the guys that have blow up holes. Those guys tend to be the high handicappers. Who it hurts is the consistant guys like my Dad who has zero distance these days but  who is a consistant par or bogey on every hole.

This is definitely true. A round usually looks like, "Bogey, Par, Bogey, Bogey, Par, Par, Double, EIGHT, NINE, Par..." My handicap is probably at least 8 strokes higher because of 3 or 4 holes every round. If you took my best dozen holes and multiplied by 1.5 to get an 18-hole score, you'd have a very wrong idea about how well I play.

Except that when you make a 9 it would have to be adjusted down for handicap reporting.  I think that even an 8 is rather high for basing a handicap on, but I'm not running the system.  When I first started carrying an official handicap, ESC was based on strokes over par, not on total.  For me at around a 13 handicap I had to adjust anything over a double bogey.  Now as a 13 handicap I can turn in a 7 on any hole, including a par 3.  I can return a much higher score now than I could back then with the same handicap.

The difference is dramatic:  Old method max reported score on a par 72 course would be 108 (72 + 36).  New method would be 126 (18 x 7), believe it or not.  Of course the numbers would be pared down by only using the best 10 of the last 20, but still, that is a huge spread.

Quote:

Originally Posted by AmazingWhacker

In my opinion, scrambles are always for fun and should never be taken seriously.  If somebody is so lame that they need to cheat at a scramble, then they are probably total losers with no self-esteem and lead terrible little lives.

And this is the real truth. Giving serious prizes for a scramble is kind of silly.

I agree, but since so many of those open field scrambles are for charity, in order to attract the kind of money they want bring in, they have to offer something worthwhile.  The honest player who wants to make up a team of his friends and give to the cause rarely has a chance to realize anything from it.  Just about the only time I might play in one is if I feel really strongly about the charity, or if it gives me an opportunity to play a course from which I would otherwise be barred.

There is a very private, very exclusive course south of Denver called Sanctuary, and just about the only way you can play it is if you play in a charity tournament, or the owner invites you personally.  There are a few very rare exceptions, but you can't even buy a membership in the course.  The only members are the owner and his wife.  I would play there regardless of the number cheaters in the field just for the experience.

[dak4n6]

Not just scrambles either. Just lost in the semis of my club championship, match play, had to give him 4 strokes, and he was listed as a 14. He won 5 and 4, shooting a gross 79 (the only putts I gave him were a few 6 inchers). Hmmmm...

[zeg]

Originally Posted by Fourputt

Except that when you make a 9 it would have to be adjusted down for handicap reporting.  I think that even an 8 is rather high for basing a handicap on, but I'm not running the system.  When I first started carrying an official handicap, ESC was based on strokes over par, not on total.  For me at around a 13 handicap I had to adjust anything over a double bogey.  Now as a 13 handicap I can turn in a 7 on any hole, including a par 3.  I can return a much higher score now than I could back then with the same handicap.

Well, the 8s are plenty for me. Went out today and shot a good round---93 total score, or +21 (+22 relative to the rating). On the 14 holes that were par 3 or 4, I was +10 (11 bogeys, a birdie, and two pars), and on the par 5s I was +11 (three 8s and a 7).

The frustrating thing is that my handicap index is pretty accurate, even with these holes---the blow-ups are regular enough that my handicap is only very slowly drifting down, by about 5 strokes in the last year and a half. I simply never string together enough holes without an explosion for these to induce too much bias in a stroke play situation. The 8s occur often enough for me that I would be pretty hosed if I had to stop counting at 7. I agree, though, that it should be par + X rather than an absolute number.

However, whether you think my index makes sense depends on what you're doing with it. For me, I basically use it to track progress, so it's essentially like using it in a stroke play situation. My play today was a net 4 under par, but 5 over on the par 5s. In a handicapped match play situation, I'd be pretty hard to beat, and I think I'd be a pretty valuable addition to a handicapped scramble team because those formats take the blow ups out of the equation.

[Hoganwoods]

One thing to keep in mind with 10-15 cap players is that they are inconsistent.  I can go out there and fire a 77 like it was nothing but I can also put up a 95.  We have blow up holes.  In match play we gain a huge advantage because we can play the holes we have strokes on with a PAR in mind.  When you have that mentality it's not that hard.  On the flip side, the low cap player has to PAR alot of holes to gain strokes but we are bound to put up alot of bogies to help them along.

[Golfingdad]

Originally Posted by Hoganwoods

One thing to keep in mind with 10-15 cap players is that they are inconsistent.  I can go out there and fire a 77 like it was nothing but I can also put up a 95.  We have blow up holes.

Yes.  This is precisely why we are 10-15 handicaps.  There are obviously some out there that are shorter, straighter hitters, who are a lot more consistent, yet make a lot of bogeys, but I fall into the same category as Hoganwoods.

My current handicap (9.8) is made up of 83,75,84,78,81,83,74,82,86,82.  I also have 2 88's and an 89 that are only because of ESC, otherwise they are 92 or 93.

That said, I would be shocked if I pulled out a 75 or 76 during a big tournament.  That would be the time for me to get nervous, choke, and put up one of those 92's.

[phan52]

Originally Posted by Parker0065

Oh Boy, good ole Handicapped Golf! As a scratch player I avoid them at all costs but they are a neccesary evil. At my home course we have two major events, the club championship which is pure medal play(hooray!), and then there's the club matchplay championship which is setup by using 80% of a players handicap. I've won our stroke play club championship and I've made it to the matchplay finals twice in three attempts but have never won it. Both times I made it to the finals were against 12 handicappers that I had to give them 9-10 shots and in both cases the guy's had their "supposed" best rounds of the year on pace to shooting mid-low 70's rounds. Meaning I had to be on pace to shooting near the course record both times to have a chance, lol.

Did that mean they fluffed their handicaps a little, probably but I think just the nature of handicapping a matchplay event gives the lesser player a slight advantage. The higher handicap player can play more relaxed knowing their getting strokes and they can blow up and have a 10 on one hole and still win. The scratch player better be a birdie machine that day or their going home, especially when your giving 10 strokes and your opponent is making par after par. I haven't played in the Matchplay event in a few years more due to time constraints than anything else but another scratch player at the club and I joke about how we boycott the event because of all the 12-15 handicappers having the rounds of their life when they play us, lol! Maybe I'll give it another shot next year if my schedule permits. I don't have a issue with how they run the event because without using handicaps it would always come down to myself and the two other scratch players at the club. We already dominate the Club Championship so the Matchplay gives everyone a chance to win a trophy!

To the OP, there probably was some sandbagging but usually handicaped scramble net scores are in the 50's or lower. It's just the nature of the beast and they are useless for myself to play in unless they also provide prizes for low gross, then I have a chance.

Doesn't sound like your handicap committee is on the job.

[Hoganwoods]

Originally Posted by Golfingdad

Yes.  This is precisely why we are 10-15 handicaps.  There are obviously some out there that are shorter, straighter hitters, who are a lot more consistent, yet make a lot of bogeys, but I fall into the same category as Hoganwoods.

My current handicap (9.8) is made up of 83,75,84,78,81,83,74,82,86,82.  I also have 2 88's and an 89 that are only because of ESC, otherwise they are 92 or 93.

That said, I would be shocked if I pulled out a 75 or 76 during a big tournament.  That would be the time for me to get nervous, choke, and put up one of those 92's.

If I have a bad round, especially this year, i always have one good nine.  I often go 39-49, or something like that.  When I put up something in the middle I shoot my cap and when I have 2 good nines, good night.  The low cap players also tend to be more boring, straight and short with amazing short game.  :P

[phan52]

Originally Posted by Fourputt

Except that when you make a 9 it would have to be adjusted down for handicap reporting.  I think that even an 8 is rather high for basing a handicap on, but I'm not running the system.  When I first started carrying an official handicap, ESC was based on strokes over par, not on total.  For me at around a 13 handicap I had to adjust anything over a double bogey.  Now as a 13 handicap I can turn in a 7 on any hole, including a par 3.  I can return a much higher score now than I could back then with the same handicap.

The difference is dramatic:  Old method max reported score on a par 72 course would be 108 (72 + 36).  New method would be 126 (18 x 7), believe it or not.  Of course the numbers would be pared down by only using the best 10 of the last 20, but still, that is a huge spread.

That is an extreme example. A 13 handicap player would obvioulsy never double every hole or make a 7 on every hole. And, in the end, the score wouldn't come close to counting toward your handicap anyway.

My problem with ESC is that most casual golfers don't understand it. Even some good players aren't sure what they can post. But it is an equitable system, if used correctly. We do a random review of 50 cards every month and easily 75% of them have incorrect adjustments.

[Parker0065]

Originally Posted by phan52

Doesn't sound like your handicap committee is on the job.

I agree with you 100%, I never have liked how the handicaping has been handled at my home course. Outside of the couple times I've played in the Matchplay I never participate in any handicap events so it's the "Handicap Players" fight as far as I'm concerned. It's only a semi-private course and the owners usually makes the call on handicap matters. Fortunately for me they do a lot of other things really well like course maintenance, great practice facility and other small things for the members that make it more than worth while to play there.

[Clement]

Some portion of this may just be ignorance.  When I first started playing, I was on both sides of it.  In the first scramble I ever played, I showed up with my brand new set of clubs and the girl at the welcome desk asked me my handicap.  I said, truthfully, that I didn't have one.  Well, she took that to mean that I was a scratch player.  Everyone at the desk was very impressed, but I shot at least a 120.  My team came in dead last and won the booby prize.  My buddies were embarassed as hell and spent the next several days trying to figure out how this had ever happened.

Another time, again, before I knew how handicaps worked, I got paired with a bunch of guys who were just like me, athletic, but not really golfers.  On any hole, each of us could make a par or a nine.   Because, over 18 holes, each of us sucked, we put in handicaps of 36.  Well, we ham and egged it, and came in at a ridiculous score and won fancy drivers.  It was stupid and lucky, but honest.  Nevertheless, everyone thought we cheated, and a number of them said so.  It wasn't pleasant and it motivated me to learn the handicap system better.   I've never come in first or last again.

[Fourputt]

Originally Posted by dak4n6

Not just scrambles either. Just lost in the semis of my club championship, match play, had to give him 4 strokes, and he was listed as a 14. He won 5 and 4, shooting a gross 79 (the only putts I gave him were a few 6 inchers). Hmmmm...

There is nothing that odd about a 14 shooting 79.  It's not going to be an everyday occurrence, but it's not that unusual either.  My game has had that sort of inconsistency for more than 20 years.  During that time the lowest handicap I've ever had was a 9.6 index.  However, I've shot a lot of sub 80 rounds during that period.  My lifetime low score on a par 72 (69.4 rating and 120 slope - 6500 yards) course is 73, and just a couple of years ago I played through the 10th hole at 3 under par.  Just this spring, 3 of my first 6 rounds were 79, 76, 78 with a 13.5 index.  I just have never managed to have enough of those rounds grouped together to bring my handicap below 10.  I don't think that there have ever been more than 3 such scores in my last 20 at any one time.

[phan52]

Originally Posted by Hoganwoods

One thing to keep in mind with 10-15 cap players is that they are inconsistent.  I can go out there and fire a 77 like it was nothing but I can also put up a 95.  We have blow up holes.  In match play we gain a huge advantage because we can play the holes we have strokes on with a PAR in mind.  When you have that mentality it's not that hard.  On the flip side, the low cap player has to PAR alot of holes to gain strokes but we are bound to put up alot of bogies to help them along.

There is no question that match play can be to the advantage of the higher handicapped players. Better-ball even more so. Conversely, the low handicapped players have a distinct advantage in medal play. In medal play you have to play and count every single one of your foul balls and the better players have fewer of them.

The only match play tournament we have with handicaps is the Better-Ball. The rest of them are straight up (Club Championships and flighted tournaments).

[bplewis24]

Originally Posted by Clement

Some portion of this may just be ignorance.  When I first started playing, I was on both sides of it.  In the first scramble I ever played, I showed up with my brand new set of clubs and the girl at the welcome desk asked me my handicap.  I said, truthfully, that I didn't have one.  Well, she took that to mean that I was a scratch player.  Everyone at the desk was very impressed, but I shot at least a 120.  My team came in dead last and won the booby prize.  My buddies were embarassed as hell and spent the next several days trying to figure out how this had ever happened.

Another time, again, before I knew how handicaps worked, I got paired with a bunch of guys who were just like me, athletic, but not really golfers.  On any hole, each of us could make a par or a nine.   Because, over 18 holes, each of us sucked, we put in handicaps of 36.  Well, we ham and egged it, and came in at a ridiculous score and won fancy drivers.  It was stupid and lucky, but honest.  Nevertheless, everyone thought we cheated, and a number of them said so.  It wasn't pleasant and it motivated me to learn the handicap system better.   I've never come in first or last again.

Those are two pretty good stories, but the first one had me laughing out loud.  Hilarious.  I can just imagine all of the people that heard you were a scratch golfer and started looking at what irons you played, what kinda golf apparel you were wearing, checking out your warm-up techniques.  Taking detailed mental notes so as to find out how they could improve.  Then some of them see your first chip and feel bamboozled.

[dak4n6]

Originally Posted by Fourputt

There is nothing that odd about a 14 shooting 79.  It's not going to be an everyday occurrence, but it's not that unusual either.  My game has had that sort of inconsistency for more than 20 years.  During that time the lowest handicap I've ever had was a 9.6 index.  However, I've shot a lot of sub 80 rounds during that period.  My lifetime low score on a par 72 (69.4 rating and 120 slope - 6500 yards) course is 73, and just a couple of years ago I played through the 10th hole at 3 under par.  Just this spring, 3 of my first 6 rounds were 79, 76, 78 with a 13.5 index.  I just have never managed to have enough of those rounds grouped together to bring my handicap below 10.  I don't think that there have ever been more than 3 such scores in my last 20 at any one time.

Yeah, I know, but he just happened to shoot it in the club champ semis. I also played with him in the qualifier, and he carded an 83, but he stumbled coming home, otherwise that also would have been around 80. When I mentioned his HC to one of our starters, he just kind of nodded and said "hmmm, yeaaaah..."

[bunkerputt]

Originally Posted by Cgjohnst

Is it common for people to sandbag in tournaments? I just finished a two-man scramble tournament and the scores were ridiculous. We played some of our best golf ever and shot 7 under par after our handicap was taken into account. So we have a 63 on the board. We ended up coming in dead last place behind a bunch of teams in the low 50s and 40s. The winning team listed a 40 handicap per person, which was written down as a 29 together. They shot a 77 before the handicap was taken into account. It was just a local charity tournament so it isn't a huge deal, but still...it is pretty frustrating. Do people do this a lot?

I don't even play those formats.  I played a two-man scramble once with a pastor friend of mine who plays off an 8 and we came in dead last with a 70 on a 75.1CR course.  The winning team eagled every par-5, and birdied every par-3 and 4.  It was so obviously cheating that it was sickening.  Not to mention the event was sponsored by a local non-profit and the winners got a trip for 4 to TPC San Antonio and a $2500 diamond tennis bracelet.  It made me feel really sick, so I just stay away from that stuff entirely.