2012 Ryder Cup Discussion Thread

[Johnhw2]

Originally Posted by Nosevi

Maybe you're right mate, maybe I am. A few throw away comments just gives that pression. Like I said, Jack Nicklaus thought you'd struggle in the singles. I could be wrong but 50 odd pages of "WHY!!!!" tells me it was a shock to most. (Me included, to a certain degree)

Regarding the qualifying I actually think there are far too many automatic places and not enough captain's picks. It's been pointed put that Stroke play and you would have had it. Both of our guys are almost entirely picked on stroke play performance but match play is a little different. I'd like to see more like 6 automatic, 6 captain's picks. As long as the captain picks well, of course! Interestingly I understand that match play is in fact the earliest form of scoring. Predates references to stroke play by quite a long time.

Regarding Walton Heath, not played it but heard good things. I play in Lincolnshire. My 'local' is quite good - the Hotchkin at Woodhall spa. Not hugely well known but the home of our English golf union. Any course where you have steps to climb out of the bunkers makes you think twice!

TV has a hard time with match play, which in part drove us toward stroke play along wih larger fields. College teams play a good bit of match play but then in regionals and to determine final 8 teams they go back to stroke play then use match to finish things. But even college events wiht a number of teams uses stroke fo the same reason as prof golf does

[Nosevi]

Originally Posted by Johnhw2

TV has a hard time with match play, which in part drove us toward stroke play along wih larger fields. College teams play a good bit of match play but then in regionals and to determine final 8 teams they go back to stroke play then use match to finish things. But even college events wiht a number of teams uses stroke fo the same reason as prof golf does

Personally love to watch match play - you see so much more of each match. By the time it gets down to the semi finals you see every shot each player makes, in the final you get to see everything the players do, think, talk about with their caddy. Added to which, there's something to win or loose on every hole. For me, when I'm spectating, it's the best format.

[Chas]

On a side note, I became an Ian Poulter fan last weekend because of the intensity and competitveness he displayed the entire weekend, great captains pick!

A small point perhaps but this is surprising to read. Poults should be very familiar to golf fans here in the U.S. and what he did this year at the RC should NOT come as such a surprise imho. He has that slightly nutty hyper-competitive streak which he's shown american viewers before. And I'm thinking we' ll be seeing it again .... IMO Hunter Mahan has that kind of fortitude (aka bottle) as well, in his own way. What really pi**es me off about some of the duller TV commentators/editors here is that they so often show his chunked chip when discussing the guy, as if that defined him in any meaningful way. Actually, it's the exception that proves the rule more than it's the opposite. The irony is lost on many I daresay. But that's the low-grade media we have to suffer - I suspect we can all agree on that. Picking a RC team is not just about strokeplay stats over a long period of time. I'm no frikkin expert but even I know that much.

[Johnhw2]

Originally Posted by Chas

A small point perhaps but this is surprising to read. Poults should be very familiar to golf fans here in the U.S. and what he did this year at the RC should NOT come as such a surprise imho. He has that slightly nutty hyper-competitive streak which he's shown american viewers before.

And I'm thinking we' ll be seeing it again ....

IMO Hunter Mahan has that kind of fortitude (aka bottle) as well, in his own way. What really pi**es me off about some of the duller TV commentators/editors here is that they so often show his chunked chip when discussing the guy, as if that defined him in any meaningful way. Actually, it's the exception that proves the rule more than it's the opposite. The irony is lost on many I daresay. But that's the low-grade media we have to suffer - I suspect we can all agree on that.

Picking a RC team is not just about strokeplay stats over a long period of time. I'm no frikkin expert but even I know that much.

I agree with you 100% of both players. Shows take the easy out on Hunter and show that one shot rather than discuss his winning record in RC, a rarity before this RC. The other claim to support Fuyrk being picked was his undefeated record in the President's cup last year...Mahan was 4 wins and 1 loss then and beat some strong Asian players like Jason Day pretty handily

[dsc123]

Originally Posted by Nosevi

I'm not criticising a view of sport that says the PGA tour is more important, just asking "more important to who?"

I think you confuse European players with the European tour.  I mean, wouldn't you agree that the PGA Tour is superior in terms of having the best players?  and the biggest purses?  I'm not sure how else you would want to compare the two.  5 of the top 10 players in the world rankings are Europeans, but they play mostly on the PGA Tour.  I think if you look at the OWGR, the top player you'll find who played as much on the Euro tour as in the USA is Lowrie at 28.

So even though there are just as many good European golfers as there are American golfers, that doesn't really change the fact that the Euro tour is inferior to the PGA Tour.

[Nosevi]

Originally Posted by Chas

What really pi**es me off about some of the duller TV commentators/editors here is that they so often show his chunked chip when discussing the guy, as if that defined him in any meaningful way. Actually, it's the exception that proves the rule more than it's the opposite.

On a similar theme, someone pointed out that Webb Simpson Shanked a shot and used that as a negative against the guy. To me the fact that he didn't let it effect him at all, seem to recall his next shots were all good shots, says a lot about the guy to me. Imagine shanking a ball in front of all those people. What the hell's going through your head as you address your next iron shot? The fact that he kept his cool earned respect from me.

[dsc123]

I also don't understand why 10-6 is considered such a big lead.  The difference was two matches out of sixteen.  With 12 matches to go.  I guess that's usually enough, it just doesn't seem like a huge lead to me.

[zipazoid]

Originally Posted by dsc123

I also don't understand why 10-6 is considered such a big lead.  The difference was two matches out of sixteen.  With 12 matches to go.  I guess that's usually enough, it just doesn't seem like a huge lead to me.

I agree. To look at it from a different angle, in 16 matches the US built the lead. In 12 matches the Euros overcame it. It was, basically, a tale of two tournaments.

[Nosevi]

Originally Posted by dsc123

I think you confuse European players with the European tour.  I mean, wouldn't you agree that the PGA Tour is superior in terms of having the best players?  and the biggest purses?  I'm not sure how else you would want to compare the two.  5 of the top 10 players in the world rankings are Europeans, but they play mostly on the PGA Tour.  I think if you look at the OWGR, the top player you'll find who played as much on the Euro tour as in the USA is Lowrie at 28.

So even though there are just as many good European golfers as there are American golfers, that doesn't really change the fact that the Euro tour is inferior to the PGA Tour.

Interesting take on it. Biggest purses? Yes, give you that. Players?

Ok starting at the top, why not? Last year Rors played 9 regular European Tour events, all 4 Majors, 4 WGC which appear on both tours and 6 regular PGA Tour events. Think I've got that right.

Lee Westwood? 3 regular PGA Tour events I thought, 4 WGC events, 4 Majors and 8 regular European Tour events.

I could go on but don't think it's really worth it. I don't mind at all but your last line just makes my point far more eloquently than I ever could. Thanks. :-)

[Monte the Bear]

Originally Posted by Nosevi

The top European players play the PGA Tour for one reason - money. Yes many have a loyalty to the European tour and many who play both tours have homes there because if they split their time between the tours it makes far more sence, what would be the point of having a home in England when your European Tour schedule has you playing in South Africa then the Middle East, then China, then Germany. Might as well stick to the country half your matches are in, don't you think.

I don't think the European tour is more important than the PGA tour, not at all. I just think over there the general concensus is the PGA tour is far more important than the European tour.

I also think players that make a fair bit of money over here eventually go over to the USA and play the tour because playing on those greens and those grasses cannot be replicated anywhere in Europe. Only in Dubai and Australia can you play those grasses on greens of a certain pace. This is why Westwood is playing the PGA next year.

One interesting thing about an omission from the sides - Carl Pettersen was a birdie machine this year and made a shit load of money, but isn't a European PGA Tour member. Never got considered. Strange.

[jamo]

I could go on but don't think it's really worth it. I don't mind at all but your last line just makes my point far more eloquently than I ever could. Thanks. :-)

Are you arguing that the Euro Tour is stronger than the PGA Tour? Because if you are, then I challenge you to, as you said, "go on." They may be a few great players on the Euro Tour and maybe the to 5/10/15 are better, but the depth runs out quick.

[Monte the Bear]

Originally Posted by jamo

Are you arguing that the Euro Tour is stronger than the PGA Tour?

Because if you are, then I challenge you to, as you said, "go on." They may be a few great players on the Euro Tour and maybe the to 5/10/15 are better, but the depth runs out quick.

I hate to tell you this, but it doesn't. There are a lot of very, very good players playing on that tour. The European tour isn't just for Europeans: it's the starting place for many top Australian, South African, Asian and South American players. Don't believe me?

Runner up at this years Masters - product of European Tour

Runner up at this years US Open - product of European Tour

Winner and Runner up of this years British Open - products of European Tour

Winner and Runner up of this years PGA Chamipnship - products of European Tour

Couple of years ago I was sat in the bleachers behind the 12th tee at Augusta and some American dude was cracking his jaw about Charl Schwartzl, sayig he'd never heard of him.

Just because you don't hear of them don't mean to say they ain't there, buddy. Thought you woulda learnt your lessons by now.

[Chas]

On a similar theme, someone pointed out that Webb Simpson Shanked a shot and used that as a negative against the guy. To me the fact that he didn't let it effect him at all, seem to recall his next shots were all good shots, says a lot about the guy to me. Imagine shanking a ball in front of all those people. What the hell's going through your head as you address your next iron shot? The fact that he kept his cool earned respect from me.

Good example. We all know why they do it - sensationalist appeal to less knowledgeable viewers, always worse at the RC because there are more viewers like this. Ratings über alles. But I digress ....

[Nosevi]

Originally Posted by jamo

Are you arguing that the Euro Tour is stronger than the PGA Tour?

Because if you are, then I challenge you to, as you said, "go on." They may be a few great players on the Euro Tour and maybe the to 5/10/15 are better, but the depth runs out quick.

No, not saying it's stronger just a friendly debate in which I'm saying it's not inferior, or at least the players aren't.

We're talking tours, so what about the South Africans, Louis Oosthuizen, Charl Swartzel, Ernie Els, Retief Goosen? Ausis like Marcus Fraser or Richard Green aren't too bad? Up and coming guys like Danny Willett (seriously like to see him in the Ryder Cup, doesn't know the meaning of pressure it seems, won a full tour event at 17) or Manassero (what was he, 16 when he won the silver medal in The Open, beating numerous PGA Tour players - Jim Furyk, Zach Johnson ........  in fact being harsh he beat every member of your current Ryder cup team who took part including your captain?) No I think the future is relatively safe.

No, the European tour isn't stronger but comments like that sound so much better if you've just won.

Just kidding around, neither is better or stronger. Neither is inferior. Some on your side of the pond think one is, I don't. It's my day for Quoting Jack Nicklaus so just to throw one more in. He said the Ryder Cup is all about bragging rights, which tour is better. We get to brag for the next two years. His sentiment not mine.

[Johnhw2]

Originally Posted by jamo

Are you arguing that the Euro Tour is stronger than the PGA Tour?

Because if you are, then I challenge you to, as you said, "go on." They may be a few great players on the Euro Tour and maybe the to 5/10/15 are better, but the depth runs out quick.

I am not sure I agree with you because I do not know. How about this to find out. When the RC is  being played lets add two or three teams to compete in the same formate at the same location. So we would have 4 x 24 players the ..US vs Euro. Might have to pay the players to make it practical for lower ranked players. But we could have 4 captains and 4 teams to build experience in match pylap at the professional level. Could have a match play ranking system for players as well to hlep captains have a better handle on who is a match play tiger and who is a stroke play genius

[dsc123]

I could go on but don't think it's really worth it. I don't mind at all but your last line just makes my point far more eloquently than I ever could. Thanks. :-)

You started by saying that the Euro Tour is not inferior and my last sentence said that it was.  So yeah, if your point was the opposite of what you said, then sure, I probably did state your point more eloquently than you.

Originally Posted by Monte the Bear

I hate to tell you this, but it doesn't. There are a lot of very, very good players playing on that tour. The European tour isn't just for Europeans: it's the starting place for many top Australian, South African, Asian and South American players. Don't believe me?

Runner up at this years Masters - product of European Tour

Runner up at this years US Open - product of European Tour

Winner and Runner up of this years British Open - products of European Tour

Winner and Runner up of this years PGA Chamipnship - products of European Tour

Couple of years ago I was sat in the bleachers behind the 12th tee at Augusta and some American dude was cracking his jaw about Charl Schwartzl, sayig he'd never heard of him.

Just because you don't hear of them don't mean to say they ain't there, buddy. Thought you woulda learnt your lessons by now.

Right, "product of."  Like how Nosevi mentioned how often Rory and Westwood played in Europe last year.  They've both since moved to the US and joined the PGA Tour.  Like how Peyton Manning is a "product of" Tennessee, and now plays in the NFL. Or how Evan Longoria is a "product of" the Devil Ray's farm system.  They start in one place, and graduate to the bigger stage.

Charl Schwartzl is not European.  Also, he is a full member of the PGA Tour.  He played four events in Europe this year, and 16 in the US (some of those are WGC).

[jamo]

I hate to tell you this, but it doesn't. There are a lot of very, very good players playing on that tour. The European tour isn't just for Europeans: it's the starting place for many top Australian, South African, Asian and South American players. Don't believe me?  Runner up at this years Masters - product of European Tour Runner up at this years US Open - product of European Tour Winner and Runner up of this years British Open - products of European Tour Winner and Runner up of this years PGA Chamipnship - products of European Tour Couple of years ago I was sat in the bleachers behind the 12th tee at Augusta and some American dude was cracking his jaw about Charl Schwartzl, sayig he'd never heard of him. Just because you don't hear of them don't mean to say they ain't there, buddy. Thought you woulda learnt your lessons by now.

You've proven two things: that the European Tour has many good future players, and that there are many world-class players that currently play both tours. Two things that no one is disputing. Congrats?

[bplewis24]

Originally Posted by Nosevi

Ok starting at the top, why not? Last year Rors played 9 regular European Tour events, all 4 Majors, 4 WGC which appear on both tours and 6 regular PGA Tour events. Think I've got that right.

Lee Westwood? 3 regular PGA Tour events I thought, 4 WGC events, 4 Majors and 8 regular European Tour events.

I believe both of those players changed their schedules significantly this year, right?