Sandbagging- What is Permitted?

[phan52]

In all the years I've been a handicap chairman, I only found one guy who deliberately would miss putts (among other things) to pad his handicap. People do all the other things you mention on a regular basis but it's not because they are sandbagging. It's because they don't know what they are doing and are clueless about course management. I can tell you that the real sandbaggers are guys who are selective about posting away scores. We have a few tournaments where there is a lot of money at stake and, as a result, and we are very aggressive with peer review.

We have found that guys who play for money on a regular basis will be found on the leaderboard in these tournaments. The people who don't play for money complain about them, but the money players' scores are pretty legit because they play with focus and usually putt everything out. The people who don't play for money regularly end up under pressure in these tournaments and their biggest problem is that, in their everyday games, they don't always putt everything out ("That's Good" Syndrome). It's the only time they find that themselves having to make a two foot putt and they aren't used to it. I am not going to penalize the money players simply because they know how to play under pressure.

[Datsyuk]

  phan52 said:

Originally Posted by phan52

In all the years I've been a handicap chairman, I only found one guy who deliberately would miss putts (among other things) to pad his handicap. People do all the other things you mention on a regular basis but it's not because they are sandbagging. It's because they don't know what they are doing and are clueless about course management. I can tell you that the real sandbaggers are guys who are selective about posting away scores. We have a few tournaments where there is a lot of money at stake and, as a result, and we are very aggressive with peer review.

We have found that guys who play for money on a regular basis will be found on the leaderboard in these tournaments. The people who don't play for money complain about them, but the money players' scores are pretty legit because they play with focus and usually putt everything out. The people who don't play for money regularly end up under pressure in these tournaments and their biggest problem is that, in their everyday games, they don't always putt everything out ("That's Good" Syndrome). It's the only time they find that themselves having to make a two foot putt and they aren't used to it. I am not going to penalize the money players simply because they know how to play under pressure.

I see a few sandbaggers in our league and they do very well in our tournaments, but for others it's just a matter of focus. I knwo people who get embarassed or self conscious if they're seen trying to grind out the best score on hole and giving every shot 100% effort during casual rounds so they just go through the motions and play each shot as quickly as they can. I have a couple friends exactly like that. Then during league play or tournaments they grind like crazy for the entire round. They shoot a couple strokes better while the habitual gimme and mulligan crowd shoot a couple strokes worse (at least).

[Golfingdad]

  Fourputt said:

Originally Posted by Fourputt

Neither.  Bad choices, bad decisions - maybe an indication for taking an anger management class.    Maybe you need some practice with trouble shots.  No sandbagging because there is no intent to cheat your handicap.  You made poor decisions in the heat of battle, and such a situation in a casual round can feel just as meaningful at the time as it is in a competition round.  I take every round equally seriously, yet I also play every round to have fun.  Serious golf, having fun, and playing by the rules are not mutually exclusive goals.  Nor is trying to shoot the lowest reasonable score while still using a little common sense.

I never have to worry about whether I'm sandbagging because I do approach every round the same way.  Every round is an opportunity for fun.  Every shot is a new challenge.  Every decision is made depending on the situation and conditions existing at the time.  And I don't believe I've ever agonized over a decision just because the wrong choice might make one tenth of a point of difference in my handicap index.  I do what I feel is the proper thing at the time, whether that is to abandon a search early or to continue it up to the last second.  You can also look at it like this.  I take the full 5 minutes, don't find the ball, walk to my provisional ball (hopefully I'm at least smart enough to play one), hit it.  But now my group is 5 minutes out of position, so we have to rush the next few shots to catch up.  That just cost us a couple more strokes on our scores because we didn't have the luxury of playing in our usual routine.  Now the fact that we wasted the time on the full search is indirectly responsible for a higher score and an inflated handicap.  Am I now a sandbagger?  And since the group behind us had to wait on us, and now they have to rush to regain position just as we do, we have managed to have an negative effect on their scores too.

Or, and I ask MEFree, are just going to keep falling further and further out of position every time you have a ball search without making any attempt to regain your place?

I've made poor shot decisions, both in competition and in casual rounds, which have cost me 2 or 3 strokes on that hole.  Going for a green with a hazard very much in play is a biggie.  I don't do it as much these days as I once did, but now and then it's just irresistible.   I may not pull the shot off very often,  but what a feeling when I do.   Is that aggressive, go for it attitude sandbagging?  No, because my intent is to shoot the lowest score possible, even though I may know that the odds are better that I"m going miss and make a triple on the hole.  But that isn't what I'm thinking about when I plan the shot.  All I'm thinking about is "Okay, I'm 230 out and I've got 210 to carry the hazard.... I can do this, let's go."  Or I'm thinking "Okay, I'm 230 out and I've got 210 to carry the hazard.... I'm hitting my short irons well today, so I'm going to lay up with a 9I and try to stiff a wedge for my 3rd."  Same hole, same distances, but different thought process on different days because of a difference in how I feel about my game that day.

And that is the crux of it right there.  As listed in the poll (without qualifiers) only the intentional 3-putt is something I would consider sandbagging.  But every one of them becomes sandbagging if you factor in fourputt's bolded statement above.

I have done all of the things listed in the poll EXCEPT for the intentional 3 putt.  It almost always happens during holes later in the round and when I am paying poorly, but in none of the instances was I purposely trying to pad my handicap.  When I am playing poorly enough to be pissed off enough to stop caring about my score is when I am shooting a score that isn't going to be one of my ten best anyway.

Maybe it's been mentioned above, but I think the formula for handicap does take into account these types of things.  It's hard to raise your handicap much in one round.  For any of the poll choices to affect your handicap you would actually have to be playing a good round (under handicap or close to it) and then intentionally tank it.  Lame.

[MEfree]

  Datsyuk said:

Originally Posted by Datsyuk

I see a few sandbaggers in our league and they do very well in our tournaments, but for others it's just a matter of focus. I knwo people who get embarassed or self conscious if they're seen trying to grind out the best score on hole and giving every shot 100% effort during casual rounds so they just go through the motions and play each shot as quickly as they can. I have a couple friends exactly like that. Then during league play or tournaments they grind like crazy for the entire round. They shoot a couple strokes better while the habitual gimme and mulligan crowd shoot a couple strokes worse (at least).

This is at the heart of why I created this thread.  The handicap manual says you are suppose to always try your hardest, but some don`t, not because they are intentionally trying to sandbag, but because of other factors.  However, the net result is still the same- their handicap is a few strokes higher than it would be if they always tried their hardest.

To me, the most obvious flaw in the handicap system is that it includes casual rounds.  BUT many players don`t play competitive rounds often enough to have a system that only counts competitive rounds.  So what is the solution?

[Datsyuk]

  MEfree said:

Originally Posted by MEfree

This is at the heart of why I created this thread.  The handicap manual says you are suppose to always try your hardest, but some don`t, not because they are intentionally trying to sandbag, but because of other factors.  However, the net result is still the same- their handicap is a few strokes higher than it would be if they always tried their hardest.

To me, the most obvious flaw in the handicap system is that it includes casual rounds.  BUT many players don`t play competitive rounds often enough to have a system that only counts competitive rounds.  So what is the solution?

Play more competitive rounds or don't bother carrying an index at all. You didn't bold the next part where I also called out people who carry vanity handicaps. They're often the biggest whiners abour the sandbaggers. Hey, I've been there myself when playing with guys who insisted on knocking every lag putt within 4 feet back to me. Now I putt them out unless they're in a match play round.

[Golfingdad]

  MEfree said:

Originally Posted by MEfree

This is at the heart of why I created this thread.  The handicap manual says you are suppose to always try your hardest, but some don`t, not because they are intentionally trying to sandbag, but because of other factors.  However, the net result is still the same- their handicap is a few strokes higher than it would be if they always tried their hardest.

To me, the most obvious flaw in the handicap system is that it includes casual rounds.  BUT many players don`t play competitive rounds often enough to have a system that only counts competitive rounds.  So what is the solution?

I agree with everything above except the math.  I obviously don't know your friends so I could be wrong, but they would have to play like that every single round to affect their handicap by "a few strokes."  I would guess it would be closer to a few tenths of one stroke.

I can't understand anybody who cares enough to keep an official handicap yet plays like they don't care ALL OF THE TIME.  Why would they do that?

[phan52]

  Golfingdad said:

Originally Posted by Golfingdad

I agree with everything above except the math.  I obviously don't know your friends so I could be wrong, but they would have to play like that every single round to affect their handicap by "a few strokes."  I would guess it would be closer to a few tenths of one stroke.

I can't understand anybody who cares enough to keep an official handicap yet plays like they don't care ALL OF THE TIME.  Why would they do that?

Personally, I can't imagine tanking in a game of golf. I try to hit every shot to the best of my ability with the intent of trying to get the ball in the hole in the fewest amount of shots. The satisfaction from a well played shot and a good result (especially in competition) is, IMO, the main reason to play the game.

It's a shame that my results don't always match my resolve, but so it goes.

[sacm3bill]

  MEfree said:

Originally Posted by MEfree

Quote:

Originally Posted by Datsyuk

I see a few sandbaggers in our league and they do very well in our tournaments, but for others it's just a matter of focus. I knwo people who get embarassed or self conscious if they're seen trying to grind out the best score on hole and giving every shot 100% effort during casual rounds so they just go through the motions and play each shot as quickly as they can. I have a couple friends exactly like that. Then during league play or tournaments they grind like crazy for the entire round. They shoot a couple strokes better while the habitual gimme and mulligan crowd shoot a couple strokes worse (at least).

This is at the heart of why I created this thread.  The handicap manual says you are suppose to always try your hardest, but some don`t, not because they are intentionally trying to sandbag, but because of other factors.  However, the net result is still the same- their handicap is a few strokes higher than it would be if they always tried their hardest.

In addition to what Golfingdad said about it being unlikely to affect the handicap that much, I also think it's extremely unlikely that anyone who changes the way they ordinarily play because they're trying to rush, would be doing so for any reason other than they're already clearly going to be posting a score for the hole greater than their ESC. If they're *not* clearly going to be posting over their ESC, then they must only be a couple strokes into the hole, so what motivation would they have at that point to try to play more rushed or sloppily?

[Datsyuk]

  sacm3bill said:

Originally Posted by sacm3bill

In addition to what Golfingdad said about it being unlikely to affect the handicap that much, I also think it's extremely unlikely that anyone who changes the way they ordinarily play because they're trying to rush, is doing so for any reason other than they're already clearly going to be posting a score for the hole greater than their ESC. If they're *not* clearly going to be posting over their ESC, then they must only be a couple strokes into the hole, so what motivation would they have at that point to try to play more rushed or sloppily?

I can find probably 100 threads outlining the number one reason decent players try to play more rushed. Their group is either on the clock or someone in the group is bogging the whole lot of them down. The more mililtant the rangers and starters (etc) are the more likely someone will be rushing their shots.  The better player(s) are often (not always - no need to flame me all you high handicapper rabbits out there) most aware of where their group stands relative to other groups and their overall pace of play. I'd be shocked if good players on busy courses didn't find themselves rushing a few shots over the course of 18 holes. If they don't, then they're probably seen as part of the problem. It's often not enough to be playing more quickly when the group slows down, which someone taking fewer shots theoretically should be able to do, they have to be seen as playing quicker. Fewer practice swings, less attention to detail, no second guessing, these are all noticable to a ranger hiding in the trees somewhere. We've all seen it.

[MEfree]

  sacm3bill said:

Originally Posted by sacm3bill

In addition to what Golfingdad said about it being unlikely to affect the handicap that much, I also think it's extremely unlikely that anyone who changes the way they ordinarily play because they're trying to rush, is doing so for any reason other than they're already clearly going to be posting a score for the hole greater than their ESC. If they're *not* clearly going to be posting over their ESC, then they must only be a couple strokes into the hole, so what motivation would they have at that point to try to play more rushed or sloppily?

I have probably played through groups about 8 times this season...my guess is that my average score on the hole we are playing through (and in some cases the next hole or two) is at least half a stroke higher than what I normally average.

On the flip side, I would also guess that my scores are slightly higher whenever we have a group close behind us and I feel rushed.  For me this has mostly been rushing second putts in the 1 to 4 foot range and many of these have been for par and bogey (below my ESC).  Maybe it is selective memory, but I feel I have missed a lot more putts under 3 feet when I feel I have been rushing than when I take my time on these.

[onesome]

I almost feel like I have a vanity cap because I try so damn hard, I was just grinding like hell to finish at 79 yesterday but also feel if I don't treat normal rounds that way then how will I be prepared for actual tournament play?

[phan52]

  Datsyuk said:

Originally Posted by Datsyuk

I can find probably 100 threads outlining the number one reason decent players try to play more rushed. Their group is either on the clock or someone in the group is bogging the whole lot of them down. The more mililtant the rangers and starters (etc) are the more likely someone will be rushing their shots.  The better player(s) are often (not always - no need to flame me all you high handicapper rabbits out there) most aware of where their group stands relative to other groups and their overall pace of play. I'd be shocked if good players on busy courses didn't find themselves rushing a few shots over the course of 18 holes. If they don't, then they're probably seen as part of the problem. It's often not enough to be playing more quickly when the group slows down, which someone taking fewer shots theoretically should be able to do, they have to be seen as playing quicker. Fewer practice swings, less attention to detail, no second guessing, these are all noticable to a ranger hiding in the trees somewhere. We've all seen it.

I find just the opposite, especially when they are in a match of any kind. They couldn't care less about the rest of the golf course when they are in their competitive mode. We have team matches every year in our Golf Association and we have three teams. The first team always go off first at home and they inevitably hold up the whole golf course. We have lobbied to change it but to no avail.

[johnclayton1982]

Why would you think Christians would be less likely to cheat at golf?

[David in FL]

  johnclayton1982 said:

Why would you think Christians would be less likely to cheat at golf?

I'm guessing that whole "thou shalt not lie" thing...... :-)

[newtogolf]

From the USGA website:

A Handicap Index is computed from no more than 20 scores plus any eligible tournament scores . It reflects the player's potential because it is based upon the best handicap differentials posted for a given number of rounds, ideally the best 10 of the last 20 rounds.

If you "throw" a round, or don't try your hardest on one round it shouldn't affect your handicap as it would likely not be one of your 10 best rounds out of the last 20.  Now if you find you're tanking on a regular basis then you really need to reconsider whether you should be recording these rounds for handicap or even attempting to maintain a legitimate handicap.

  MEfree said:

Originally Posted by MEfree

This is at the heart of why I created this thread.  The handicap manual says you are suppose to always try your hardest, but some don`t, not because they are intentionally trying to sandbag, but because of other factors.  However, the net result is still the same- their handicap is a few strokes higher than it would be if they always tried their hardest.

To me, the most obvious flaw in the handicap system is that it includes casual rounds.  BUT many players don`t play competitive rounds often enough to have a system that only counts competitive rounds.  So what is the solution?

[geauxforbroke]

I really don't know why people are so conscious of their handicaps. Just play your best every time out, turn in an honest score, and your handicap will work itself out. I haven't had an established handicap in a while, mainly because I haven't been able to play enough golf to warrant establishing one, and because I never play in net tournaments. I really have no interest in "beating" someone that shot a lower score than I did simply because of a formula.

[phan52]

  geauxforbroke said:

Originally Posted by geauxforbroke

I really don't know why people are so conscious of their handicaps. Just play your best every time out, turn in an honest score, and your handicap will work itself out. I haven't had an established handicap in a while, mainly because I haven't been able to play enough golf to warrant establishing one, and because I never play in net tournaments. I really have no interest in "beating" someone that shot a lower score than I did simply because of a formula.

I've never had a problem when my handicap was on a downward path. It meant I was playing good golf and I certainly didn't worry about playing in tournaments. I looked forward to it.

[turtleback]

  Golfingdad said:

Originally Posted by Golfingdad

Yes, I get that those actions are against the rules and that what you said is permitted ... in competition.  But, how many threads have you seen on here where somebody is bitching about coming in first place in a tournament because he had to deal with a bunch of jerks who came in last place with a 137 because they had suspicious vanity handicaps?

None.

Why?  Because nobody cares if you cheat yourself while you are playing casual rounds against nobody.

You might complain a bit more if you get stuck with a vanity capper in a blind draw partner event.