Not trying to be a jerk but seasoned short hitters, what is keeping you from hitting it over 250 on your drives?

[turtleback]

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jimdangles

Who said I dont have a short game? My brother and his friend have been playing since high school, they are 10 years older than me and I didnt start til about 3 years after high school. I didnt say that I didnt have a short game I said theres was better.

You did, when you told us how far you hit it yet only have a 13.0 index.  I hit it 50 yards shorter than you do and have an index of 14.0.  And I sure do not have a great short game.  So how could you hit it that far, have a great short game, and have an index that is virtually the same as mine?  But even with my average short game, if I was hitting it 250+ with the same accuracy I have to believe I would have a single digit index.

Quote:

Originally Posted by pipergsm

Looking at all these numbers ( drive 290, 7i 180,...), I would think most of you were playing scratch or better.

however, when I look at the handicaps, most are 12 till 20.

something wrong in this picture?

Looks like most players have a serious problem about accuracy.

Nah, in most cases it is optimism about how far they hit it.  Just like TV makes people look fatter, the Internet makes drives seem longer.  LOL

Originally Posted by Valleygolfer

Yea.....whatever happened to Pavin......

He won 14 events over a dozen years.  And then won again (#15) on the PGA Tour when he was 47, in 2006.  And then got into a playoff in 2010 when he was past age 50.  And he won a US Open.   He had a hell of a lot better career than about 500 guys over the same period who got onto the PGA tour and could hit it 30+ yards past him.

Originally Posted by zipazoid

Imagine how many more majors he would have won had he only taken the OP's advice.

LOL

[Valleygolfer]

Quote:

Originally Posted by zipazoid

Quote:

Originally Posted by Valleygolfer

Yea yea in later years he could not compete.

Quote:

Talking about potential to win.

Like that loss in sudden death against Bubba Watson in 2010 at The Travelers?

See, beat by distance again....

[zipazoid]

Originally Posted by Valleygolfer

See, beat by distance again....

Even though nobody beat him over 72 holes. Ironic.

[Harmonious]

Originally Posted by Lihu

252 off the tee? It must be a really easy swing for him to hit that distance.

Have you never seen Pavin play? His game has never been based on power, he can maneuver the ball like almost no one else.  He is a great putter. He used those skills to overcome his lack of distance off the tee.

Like Luke Donald. Like David Toms. Like Mark Wilson. Like Justin Leonard. Like Zach Johnson.

Back to OP's original question:  Why don't good players try to hit it farther? Probably because they know that trying to hit it farther would result in worse scores.

The question should instead be:  Why don't all the mid- to high-handicappers who profess to hitting prodigious distances work on the other parts of their game so they could actually play better golf and lower their scores?

[Datsyuk]

Have you never seen Pavin play? His game has never been based on power, he can maneuver the ball like almost no one else.  He is a great putter. He used those skills to overcome his lack of distance off the tee. Like Luke Donald. Like David Toms. Like Mark Wilson. Like Justin Leonard. Like Zach Johnson. Back to OP's original question:  Why don't good players try to hit it farther? Probably because they know that trying to hit it farther would result in worse scores. The question should instead be:  Why don't all the mid- to high-handicappers who profess to hitting prodigious distances work on the other parts of their game so they could actually play better golf and lower their scores?

What makes you think for one second that they aren't?

[zipazoid]

Originally Posted by Datsyuk

What makes you think for one second that they aren't?

Because they're mid to high handicappers.

This is a generalization, but it's based in anecdotal fact (meaning, my personal observations) - many golfers are more concerned with hitting the ball far and not score. To them, it's all about crushing it, not scoring.

And that's fine, but that's not golf. It's the equivalent of the Home Run Derby instead of the actual game of baseball.

And by the way - what's the home run hitters on most baseball team's batting average? Like .230. So in a team sport, there's a place for that role - the home-run threat player who doesn't hit for average. But in golf, you have to hit for average.

[Datsyuk]

Because they're mid to high handicappers.  This is a generalization, but it's based in anecdotal fact (meaning, my personal observations) - many golfers are more concerned with hitting the ball far and not score. To them, it's all about crushing it, not scoring.  And that's fine, but that's not golf. It's the equivalent of the Home Run Derby instead of the actual game of baseball. And by the way - what's the home run hitters on most baseball team's batting average? Like .230. So in a team sport, there's a place for that role - the home-run threat player who doesn't hit for average. But in golf, you have to hit for average.

Your baseball analogies don't answer my question.

[Harmonious]

Originally Posted by Datsyuk

What makes you think for one second that they aren't?

Because if they did, they wouldn't be 20 handicappers. You just have to check out any of the "How far do you hit your clubs" threads to see lots of mid- to high-handicappers who hit it a ton, yet can't even play bogey golf, if one is to believe their posted handicap.

Take a look at any practice green or putting green.  How many people do you see actually working on their game (not just rapping a few putts before their round)?  And, of those, how many are "good" players?  From my experience, almost ALL the people who put time in on the short game areas are accomplished players. I have hardly ever seen a high handicapper spend more than 5 minutes actually working on putting or short game.

It's a quite different story on the driving range, though.  There are multitudes of hackers who pull out their drivers, and machine-gun 50 balls in a row at max power, most of which wouldn't find the fairway. How many of them practice their finesse shots with their wedges? None.

The OP's original question intimated that people should all be striving for more distance.  My response is that good players, while they might like to hit it farther (who wouldn't?), know that the game is about scoring. As such, distance isn't the obsession that it seems to be for higher handicap players.

[Lihu]

Have you never seen Pavin play? His game has never been based on power, he can maneuver the ball like almost no one else.  He is a great putter. He used those skills to overcome his lack of distance off the tee. Like Luke Donald. Like David Toms. Like Mark Wilson. Like Justin Leonard. Like Zach Johnson. Back to OP's original question:  Why don't good players try to hit it farther? Probably because they know that trying to hit it farther would result in worse scores. The question should instead be:  Why don't all the mid- to high-handicappers who profess to hitting prodigious distances work on the other parts of their game so they could actually play better golf and lower their scores?

I just saw a couple videos of his swing. Really smooth and effortless. I would rather have that swing than any other. Good goal for me. :-)

[Lihu]

Your baseball analogies don't answer my question.

Zipazoid is correct in my case. I have been playing golf for 2 and a half years now, and am just starting to get a real swing. Like many other beginners, I thought it was power that gets you distance. It took way too much effort to get 240 yards, so I thought, what the heck, hit harder to get 260. Eventually, I got injured. Hit a 270 plus carry, and tore a muscle in my shoulder. My partners said I was ready for the pros, but did not see me writhing in pain from it. The only time I worked on my short game was when I was injured. I got pretty good too, but too bad I used bad swing mechanics practicing it. The last two months was a breakthrough for me. I am finally able to swing properly. For now, my primary focus will be on the full swing mechanics. However, once I get comfortable with this new swing, the plan is to go back to serious short game practice. BTW, if I were to take my last 4 game scores, my handicap would be much lower than listed. I am waiting for at least the results of 20 more games before changing it.

[Datsyuk]

Quote:

Because if they did, they wouldn't be 20 handicappers. You just have to check out any of the "How far do you hit your clubs" threads to see lots of mid- to high-handicappers who hit it a ton, yet can't even play bogey golf, if one is to believe their posted handicap.

Take a look at any practice green or putting green.  How many people do you see actually working on their game (not just rapping a few putts before their round)?  And, of those, how many are "good" players?  From my experience, almost ALL the people who put time in on the short game areas are accomplished players. I have hardly ever seen a high handicapper spend more than 5 minutes actually working on putting or short game.

It's a quite different story on the driving range, though.  There are multitudes of hackers who pull out their drivers, and machine-gun 50 balls in a row at max power, most of which wouldn't find the fairway. How many of them practice their finesse shots with their wedges? None.

The OP's original question intimated that people should all be striving for more distance.  My response is that good players, while they might like to hit it farther (who wouldn't?), know that the game is about scoring. As such, distance isn't the obsession that it seems to be for higher handicap players.

We have different experiences but I see the worst players taking the worst shots regardless of where they're taken from, but are closest to the best players (at my level - relative nobodies) once they get to the apron - when they can use a putter or a chipper. I personally see the largest discrepancy between the tee shot and the green. Most guys I play with have their irons game as their weakest link. The longer the iron the worse they play. Makes sense they'd either work on those long irons (or hybrids) or hitting a longer tee shot. To a casual observer on the range, either plan for improvement would look about the same - hitting a long club.

I believe that if a player hits the ball > 250 yards off the tee they'd better work on a consistent repeatable shot shape, because errors are magnified with higher clubhead speed. I also disagree that someone satisfied with their game and hitting < 250 yards off the tee isn't capable of enjoying the game. That's crazy to suggest. Could they score better if they were right around the green on the par 5s? I don't know.

A lot of guys seem to be saying that if someone is hitting their tee shots over 250 yards they're doing it at the expense of some other part of their game. Maybe it seems like we're on different sides of this debate because I hit my tee shots > 250 yards and have since my second year of playing (almost 30 years ago). Not sure how I'd alter my swing to hit the ball less than 250 yards with a driver (on a solid hit) but if it makes more putts drop, sign me up!!

[phan52]

Originally Posted by Jimdangles

absolutely hes a much better golfer in every aspect. Hes been playing much longer but Length is a big advantage. My brother is probably as good as him in other aspects of the game but is a shorter hitter and doesnt stand a chance on a normal course. When its me playing against my brother whos the shorter hitter even though he is better than me I stand a chance because of my length. Length helps

I find it interesting that, as I am in the middle of this discussion, I played in a shamble yesterday (everybody drives, pick one, and play into the hole with your ball from there). There were two guys in my group who are big hitters, but their handicaps are higher than mine. Of course, I scored very well when using their drives, but they didn't score any different. And when they used my drives it didn't matter that they were using shorter clubs than I, I still hit it closer to the target.. My overall score was decidedly better due to using their drives (one hole I hit a 9-iron where I usually hit a 5 or more with a good drive). Their scores were worse. Accuracy is more important than length, Plus I have a better short game because I practice it. They go to the range to have gorilla contests to see who can hit it over the net.

[phan52]

Originally Posted by zipazoid

Because they're mid to high handicappers.

This is a generalization, but it's based in anecdotal fact (meaning, my personal observations) - many golfers are more concerned with hitting the ball far and not score. To them, it's all about crushing it, not scoring.

And that's fine, but that's not golf. It's the equivalent of the Home Run Derby instead of the actual game of baseball.

And by the way - what's the home run hitters on most baseball team's batting average? Like .230. So in a team sport, there's a place for that role - the home-run threat player who doesn't hit for average. But in golf, you have to hit for average.

As Jack Nicklaus once opined, "Golfers have to play their foul balls."

[Datsyuk]

Originally Posted by phan52

I find it interesting that, as I am in the middle of this discussion, I played in a shamble yesterday (everybody drives, pick one, and play into the hole with your ball from there). There were two guys in my group who are big hitters, but their handicaps are higher than mine. Of course, I scored very well when using their drives, but they didn't score any different. And when they used my drives it didn't matter that they were using shorter clubs than I, I still hit it closer to the target.. My overall score was decidedly better due to using their drives (one hole I hit a 9-iron where I usually hit a 5 or more with a good drive). Their scores were worse. Accuracy is more important than length, Plus I have a better short game because I practice it. They go to the range to have gorilla contests to see who can hit it over the net.

Is that how you interpreted your experience? You scored much better from their longer tee shots. They could do better with your accuracy and you'd obviously score better with longer tee shots.

[Lihu]

Originally Posted by Datsyuk

Quote:

We have different experiences but I see the worst players taking the worst shots regardless of where they're taken from, but are closest to the best players (at my level - relative nobodies) once they get to the apron - when they can use a putter or a chipper. I personally see the largest discrepancy between the tee shot and the green. Most guys I play with have their irons game as their weakest link. The longer the iron the worse they play. Makes sense they'd either work on those long irons (or hybrids) or hitting a longer tee shot. To a casual observer on the range, either plan for improvement would look about the same - hitting a long club.

I believe that if a player hits the ball > 250 yards off the tee they'd better work on a consistent repeatable shot shape, because errors are magnified with higher clubhead speed. I also disagree that someone satisfied with their game and hitting

A lot of guys seem to be saying that if someone is hitting their tee shots over 250 yards they're doing it at the expense of some other part of their game. Maybe it seems like we're on different sides of this debate because I hit my tee shots > 250 yards and have since my second year of playing (almost 30 years ago). Not sure how I'd alter my swing to hit the ball less than 250 yards with a driver (on a solid hit) but if it makes more putts drop, sign me up!!

I am trying to head in a direction where I can hit more consistently like you and other seasoned players, and that does not include hitting 300 yard drives.

[Datsyuk]

Originally Posted by Lihu

I am trying to head in a direction where I can hit more consistently like you and other seasoned players, and that does not include hitting 300 yard drives.

Is that what I said? I better take a break.

[zipazoid]

Originally Posted by Datsyuk

Your baseball analogies don't answer my question.

I answered it before I got to the baseball analogy. Your questions was 'What makes you think high-handicappers don't practice their short game' and my answer was, because they're high handicappers.

I'll elaborate since it appears you need me to. If you're hitting it 300y off the tee & shooting 100, obviously you don't have much of a short game. If you don't have much of a short game it would stand to reason you aren't practicing your short game. It's A+B = C logic.

[Datsyuk]

Originally Posted by zipazoid

I answered it before I got to the baseball analogy. Your questions was 'What makes you think high-handicappers don't practice their short game' and my answer was, because they're high handicappers.

I'll elaborate since it appears you need me to. If you're hitting it 300y off the tee & shooting 100, obviously you don't have much of a short game. If you don't have much of a short game it would stand to reason you aren't practicing your short game. It's A+B = C logic.

Corey Pavin is a successful PGA Tour professional, and he hits about the same distance you do.

Everybody hits a wall somewhere. Even the professionals. Why didn't Davis Love III win more tournaments and have career winnings double or triple Pavin's? Maybe he didn't work on his short game enough.

As I said earlier, just because somebody hits the ball a long way (compared to you) doesn't mean they're making a good stroke on their next one, or that their second stroke was even playable. A good player must work on a lot of things, but I have my doubts a 240 driver wouldn't score better with 270 yard drives. You can skip the 300 yard drives since it's only the shortest and longest hitters who keep throwing that number out there. Would a longer hitter do better getting the ball in a better position off the tee? Yeah, that's why they practice hitting drivers at the range.

So I'll admit high handicappers could practice partial shots and scoring shots more often. So could 5 and 6 cappers.