Drawing and ball position

[logman]

So I've been experimenting with my ball position in terms of getting a draw according to the new ball flight laws. So I've been swinging with a slightly open face(to the club path) and what I'm feeling is it's hindering the feeling of a solid, "completed" swing where the bottom hand drives over the top in a full extension....you know what I mean. So to get that really drivey feeling of the bottom hand smashing through the ball I have to put my ball position back further in my stance. That way I get the inside out swing path, the slightly open face......and I still get to feel that "power move" of the rolling forearm.

OK, all well and good but the rearward ball placement just ****s me up, big time. Overbalancing, topping, pivoting around my rear leg.

I think I'm going to have to go back to a central ball position and play with a slight fade or straight ball flight.

No great loss really. I reckon if I get stuck behind a tree or something I can always go to the "old " ball flight laws and play a more Nick Faldo type hook. Y-know with the closed clubface and the closed stance.

Has anybody else had the problems of ball placement while trying to play a new age draw?

[Golfingdad]

Originally Posted by logman

So I've been experimenting with my ball position in terms of getting a draw according to the new ball flight laws. So I've been swinging with a slightly open face(to the club path) and what I'm feeling is it's hindering the feeling of a solid, "completed" swing where the bottom hand drives over the top in a full extension....you know what I mean. So to get that really drivey feeling of the bottom hand smashing through the ball I have to put my ball position back further in my stance. That way I get the inside out swing path, the slightly open face......and I still get to feel that "power move" of the rolling forearm.

OK, all well and good but the rearward ball placement just ****s me up, big time. Overbalancing, topping, pivoting around my rear leg.

I think I'm going to have to go back to a central ball position and play with a slight fade or straight ball flight.

No great loss really. I reckon if I get stuck behind a tree or something I can always go to the "old " ball flight laws and play a more Nick Faldo type hook. Y-know with the closed clubface and the closed stance.

Has anybody else had the problems of ball placement while trying to play a new age draw?

Hey Logman,

Not everybody needs to play a draw.  Why not just stick with your fade if it works for you?

Also, a quick tip ...  If you want to catch fish, you would do better to at least make an attempt to hide the hook. ;)

Cheers!

[Phil McGleno]

Ooh I get to use a picture like all the kool kids. [quote name="logman" url="/t/64100/drawing-and-ball-position#post_797629"]So I've been experimenting with my ball position in terms of getting a draw according to the new ball flight laws. So I've been swinging with a [b]slightly open face(to the club path)[/b] [/quote] Good one Golfingdad.

[iacas]

I searched Google Images for "feel ain't real" and didn't find anything relevant.

I did find these though.

P.S. And this image:

http://cdn.thesandtrap.com/7/72/728ca198_____.jpeg

[boil3rmak3r]

So I've been experimenting with my ball position in terms of getting a draw according to the new ball flight laws. So I've been swinging with a slightly open face(to the club path) and what I'm feeling is it's hindering the feeling of a solid, "completed" swing where the bottom hand drives over the top in a full extension.... I am ignorant as to what the "new ball flight laws" are and am curious what they are. Can someone explain? To shape shots, I've always used the philosophy of aiming the club face to your end target while aligning your stance and swing path to the path you want the ball to start on. It seems like an open club face would promote a fade and the only way to draw a ball like this would be to get extremely handsy...

[Golfingdad]

He confused you because he stated it wrong. The "new" ball flight laws (they're not new, just newly discovered and/or widely known) state that the ball actually starts in the direction of the club face and curve away from the path. That means if you want to hit a draw your club face must be open to your TARGET so the ball will start right, and your swing path has to be open to the club face, thus applying "draw" spin. If you do what you say, your ball will start at the target and curve away from it. Not good. :) Do a search on this site and you will find great threads detailing everything.

[logman]

OOOPPPSSSS!!!  I made a poo.

Any comments on my moving the ball further back to get a more inside to out path.

I don't get the pictures.

[joekelly]

'feeling not only not real but illegal too' if you're looking at the photos and wishing you WERE feeling

[iacas]

Any comments on my moving the ball further back to get a more inside to out path.

Moving the ball back will shift the path more "out" if everything else remains the same. Simple geometry there.

Everything else did not remain the same.

Originally Posted by Golfingdad

That means if you want to hit a draw your club face must be open to your TARGET so the ball will start right, and your swing path has to be open to the club face, thus applying "draw" spin.

FWIW we are trying to change that language across the golf industry, so join us, Drew! :)

Clubface pointing RIGHT of the target, CLOSED to the path.

Clubface pointing RIGHT of the target, path farther RIGHT.

We're trying to eliminate saying "open" or "closed" relative to the target.

We think it's a little simpler/clearer.

[Harmonious]

Originally Posted by iacas

FWIW we are trying to change that language across the golf industry, so join us, Drew! :)

Clubface pointing RIGHT of the target, CLOSED to the path.

Clubface pointing RIGHT of the target, path farther RIGHT.

We're trying to eliminate saying "open" or "closed" relative to the target.

We think it's a little simpler/clearer.

Wasn't that how the "golf industry" always explained it before? Club face in relation to the swingpath. It always seemed easier to understand.

[Golfingdad]

Originally Posted by iacas

Moving the ball back will shift the path more "out" if everything else remains the same. Simple geometry there.

Everything else did not remain the same.

FWIW we are trying to change that language across the golf industry, so join us, Drew! :)

Clubface pointing RIGHT of the target, CLOSED to the path.

Clubface pointing RIGHT of the target, path farther RIGHT.

We're trying to eliminate saying "open" or "closed" relative to the target.

We think it's a little simpler/clearer.

You got it!  I'm on board.  (Good thing I'm not a lefty though ;))

Originally Posted by Harmonious

Wasn't that how the "golf industry" always explained it before? Club face in relation to the swingpath. It always seemed easier to understand.

The dynamics were never wrong as far as the relationship between clubface and swingpath, the big (wrong) key was the idea that the ball started in the direction of the swingpath.  The funny thing is that Logman's [trolling] smart-alecy comment here ... "No great loss really. I reckon if I get stuck behind a tree or something I can always go to the "old " ball flight laws and play a more Nick Faldo type hook. Y-know with the closed clubface and the closed stance" isn't necessarily even wrong.  What he's intimating, though, is that you should point the clubface at the target (behind said tree) and all will be well.  We've all learned though (well, most of us have), that if you actually do that you will not reach your target, but will instead kill a squirrel.  Logman, do you hate animals?  WTF?

[mvmac]

Originally Posted by Harmonious

Wasn't that how the "golf industry" always explained it before? Club face in relation to the swingpath. It always seemed easier to understand.

No they were talking about target.  I'm not trying to talk trash about this guy but I have to use examples if I'm trying to prove a point.  Clearly not talking about in relation to the path.  This is pretty standard for the industry.  That's why we hear all this talk about how we have to square up the club face.  No one on tour has a square club face to the target at impact.

I very much agree with the common fault he sees in a lot of golfers per the takeaway and agree with the other points he makes about the takeaway.

About 1:25

[EverythingGolf]

Originally Posted by iacas

I searched Google Images for "feel ain't real" and didn't find anything relevant.

I did find these though.

P.S. And this image:

http://cdn.thesandtrap.com/7/72/728ca198_____.jpeg

This is fantastic, thank you Erik.

[logman]

Originally Posted by Golfingdad

You got it!  I'm on board.  (Good thing I'm not a lefty though ;))

The dynamics were never wrong as far as the relationship between clubface and swingpath, the big (wrong) key was the idea that the ball started in the direction of the swingpath.  The funny thing is that Logman's [trolling] smart-alecy comment here ... "No great loss really. I reckon if I get stuck behind a tree or something I can always go to the "old " ball flight laws and play a more Nick Faldo type hook. Y-know with the closed clubface and the closed stance" isn't necessarily even wrong.  What he's intimating, though, is that you should point the clubface at the target (behind said tree) and all will be well.  We've all learned though (well, most of us have), that if you actually do that you will not reach your target, but will instead kill a squirrel.  Logman, do you hate animals?  WTF?

No, I was just trying to say that. I hardly ever play a draw....... just to play a draw. I'm just trying to hit high,straight solid shots. Probably the only time I'll intentionally hit a hook/draw is if i'm behind a tree. So my preferred method to play a draw in that circumstance is to get a slightly more lofted stick turn it over to close the face, put my tongue in the corner of my mouth, tilt my head a bit,guess how much I need to hook it, concentrate on in to out path.......then hit it.

As you can see I'm a fairly scientific guy . but really for me I'm looking at getting the ball ANYWHERE within 50 meters of the pin. So the the "faldo method" is OK. I realize that style is a blunt instument but it's OK

Golfdaddy...I'm going to have to work on my manner or writing style or something or maybe my computer isn't translating Australian into your foreign language but it wasn't meant to beTrolling or smartalecy.

[iacas]

Originally Posted by Harmonious

Wasn't that how the "golf industry" always explained it before? Club face in relation to the swingpath. It always seemed easier to understand.

Nobody's ever disagreed on what makes a ball curve. The "golf industry" has, however, failed to specify what things were closed or open "to" - they'd say a slice was caused by an open clubface... but open to what? They never said. Open to the path, but most often (most slicers) - pointing left of the target.

Plus the bit about getting the ball flight laws wrong, but that's not what this is about. It's simply about using the words "right/left" to be in relation to the TARGET, and open/closed to be in relation to the PATH.

The "golf industry" has always been unclear, and even saying "open to the target" isn't clear to a lot of golfers.

The point of communication is to be understood, so if we can change the way we say things and be more easily understood, I'm riding that train all day.

[Golfingdad]

Originally Posted by logman

Golfdaddy...I'm going to have to work on my manner or writing style or something or maybe my computer isn't translating Australian into your foreign languagebut it wasn't meant to beTrolling or smartalecy.

Yeah, that down under accent really comes through in writing.  Sometimes I don't understand anything you say.

And your writing style is fine ... but some of your recent topics appear to be for no actual purpose other than to pick a fight with Erik (and, by extension, a lot of the rest of us)

Originally Posted by logman

As you can see I'm a fairly scientific guy. but really for me I'm looking at getting the ball ANYWHERE within 50 meters of the pin. So the the "faldo method" is OK. I realize that style is a blunt instument but it's OK

My apologies then, cuz I was sure by "Faldo method" you were insinuating specifically that you point the clubface at the tree.  (There's a video on here from about a year ago ... wait, I remember, it's from the Sony Open, so EXACTLY a year ago ... where Faldo does the "point the clubface where you want the ball to end up" routine)  I thought you were just trying to stir the pot.

Originally Posted by logman

No, I was just trying to say that. I hardly ever play a draw....... just to play a draw. I'm just trying to hit high,straight solid shots.

Now enough nonsense, lets get down to business.  Why do you want to hit the ball straight?  Nobody good hits the ball straight.  Like Mike said (might have been another thread), trying to hit it straight invites a two-way miss.  Pick a side, any side, and cut your misses in half!

You seem to be jumping to the conclusion that whenever somebody talks about a draw or fade that they are really talking about a giant sweeping hook or slice that moves 50 feet (or more).  They're not.  Ideally, they're talking about moving the ball a couple of yards.  A repeating swing that can move the ball a couple of yards in one direction is a lot more desirable (to most people) than one that may move it a couple of yards in either direction.

Or like Erik always puts it, if you play for straight, your ball is ALWAYS curving AWAY from the target.  Who wants that?

Cheers, mate!  (Did I say that right? ;))

[logman]

G daddy, that's a scary prospect starting the ball down the right and drawing it into the centre. And if I block it? or hit a straight one i'm in the place where elephants go to die. My "logic is if I hit it straight I might get a draw......left side of fairway(playing as a righty). I might hit it straight(a rare beast) or I might hit a little fade......right side of fairway. I'm in play, maybe not good posi but in play.

[mvmac]

Originally Posted by logman

G daddy, that's a scary prospect starting the ball down the right and drawing it into the centre. And if I block it? or hit a straight one i'm in the place where elephants go to die. My "logic is if I hit it straight I might get a draw......left side of fairway(playing as a righty). I might hit it straight(a rare beast) or I might hit a little fade......right side of fairway. I'm in play, maybe not good posi but in play.

Exactly you can hit it anywhere.  And you're also assuming you're starting all the balls straight.  What happens if the start lines get off?  That's why having a pattern is important.  Let's say a draw pattern.  So you aim the club face 5 yards right of the flag/middle of the fairway, if the shot is straight you're pin high right, if it's a push draw it's online with the flag, if you overdraw it you're pin high left or maybe  little long of the flag.  The beauty of owning your pattern.  This is what you see the best players doing.

If it's a big push or pull then it's just a bad shot and you'll miss the green regardless ;-)