Skins with Handicaps for Big Groups

[Golfingdad]

This is a question that my brother asked of me today, for which I couldn't give a satisfactory answer, so I promised him I would ask you all.

The short version of the question is:  How do you handicap a skins game for more than two people?  (In his case, we are talking about 8 people total)

In a 2 person match of say a 15 and a 18, the 18 would get a stroke on the 3 hardest holes.  In a large group playing stroke play, its largely irrelevant where the strokes are given, just that they are there.  And as I understand it, when there are more than two, everybody gets the strokes they are entitled to on each hole.

The problem that my brother and his friends are having with this is it means that the 18 is gaining his advantage on the three easiest holes.  I told him that I don't know of any other way.

Are there different ways to play handicap skins games with larger groups?  If so, are they really complicated?

Thanks in advance for the help!

[Rulesman]

Reduce everyone's handicap by the lowesrt handicap in the group ?

But as it is really strokeplay they should all play off therre full handicap.

The 18 is not getting his 'advantage' it is the adjustment needed to equalise handicap competitions.

[iacas]

They played this game with 16-24 people at one of my old clubs.

Everyone just gets their handicap. If you get two blows on a par five, and get a five, that's a net eagle. Net birdie for most others, and net par for the low handicapper who doesn't get a stroke there.

They awarded gross and net skins. You could choose to not do the gross skins if one player is a lower handicap (though you'd be surprised how infrequently that really matters, unless it's a smaller group and the one player is a LOT better). You'd be surprised how many times I had to "eagle" a 470-yard par five (I played from the white tees with them) just to tie some dude in my group who somehow managed a five with two dots.

They also said you could only take one stroke on par threes. You could include or exclude that rule as you see fit.

[carrx]

I have played it both ways.  I think it's more fair to all players if everybody gets their indicated strokes, as opposed to reducing everybody by the lowest in the group.

So the 5 would get 5 pops, and the 18 would get 18.

[Golfingdad]

Originally Posted by iacas

They played this game with 16-24 people at one of my old clubs.

Everyone just gets their handicap. If you get two blows on a par five, and get a five, that's a net eagle. Net birdie for most others, and net par for the low handicapper who doesn't get a stroke there.

They awarded gross and net skins. You could choose to not do the gross skins if one player is a lower handicap (though you'd be surprised how infrequently that really matters, unless it's a smaller group and the one player is a LOT better). You'd be surprised how many times I had to "eagle" a 470-yard par five (I played from the white tees with them) just to tie some dude in my group who somehow managed a five with two dots.

They also said you could only take one stroke on par threes. You could include or exclude that rule as you see fit.

Yeah, this is basically what I thought, and what I told him.  I also relay the par 3 caveat as well.

Actually, no I won't relay it to him, I'll just send him the link to the thread and hopefully he reads the whole thing ...

Hey, butthead (I'm 39 years old, but you will always be 2 years younger so I can always call you butthead), join the forum so you can learn all kinds of great stuff like this, swing tips from really good teachers, equipment reviews, etc, ... but mainly so you have a good way to satisfy your golf obsession when you aren't at the course.

Originally Posted by Rulesman

Reduce everyone's handicap by the lowesrt handicap in the group ?

But as it is really strokeplay they should all play off therre full handicap.

The 18 is not getting his 'advantage' it is the adjustment needed to equalise handicap competitions.

Actually, this might be a little more to their liking.  Thanks!

[SCfanatic35]

I just joined, are you happy now?

I actually like the idea about paying the gross and net skins. Hopefully the rest of my group will as well.

[Golfingdad]

Originally Posted by SCfanatic35

I just joined, are you happy now?

I actually like the idea about paying the gross and net skins. Hopefully the rest of my group will as well.

Woohoo!!!!!!!!!  Hey everybody, its the "golfingbrother."  (Go easy on him ... don't take out any of your frustrations with my insanity on him)

Not too keen on that avatar though.  Go Bruins!

[RickK]

I play in a large group and handicaps are really on both ends of the spectrum.  We got so tired of hearing all the complaining about "it's not fair to the high handicappers", "it's not fair to the low handicappers" that we decided to play off full handicap.  Everyone gets whatever their course handicap is and we pay out both gross and net skins.  We all pot up $25 each.  Of that $25, $1 for every par 3 and we pay closest to the pin on all par 3s.  So, it will be either $4 or $5 from the $25 will go towards closest to the pin, depending upon which course we play (4 par 3s, or 5 par 3s).  Then we split the remainder down the middle and pay out 1/2 for gross skins and 1/2 for net skins.  It stopped the b!tching about not being fair.

[SCfanatic35]

Originally Posted by RickK

I play in a large group and handicaps are really on both ends of the spectrum.  We got so tired of hearing all the complaining about "it's not fair to the high handicappers", "it's not fair to the low handicappers" that we decided to play off full handicap.  Everyone gets whatever their course handicap is and we pay out both gross and net skins.  We all pot up $25 each.  Of that $25, $1 for every par 3 and we pay closest to the pin on all par 3s.  So, it will be either $4 or $5 from the $25 will go towards closest to the pin, depending upon which course we play (4 par 3s, or 5 par 3s).  Then we split the remainder down the middle and pay out 1/2 for gross skins and 1/2 for net skins.  It stopped the b!tching about not being fair.

This is exactly where we are at with the complaining. Since people are unwilling to try this, our group has now split into 2 groups. The original who still wants to fight and argue every weekend about what to do, and my group that wants to do it this way.  We have done it 1 time and it's way better.  I imagine they will come around when they get tired of arguing with each other or when they see how fair and easy our way is.

[David in FL]

Woohoo!!!!!!!!!  Hey everybody, its the "golfingbrother."  (Go easy on him ... don't take out any of your frustrations with my insanity on him)

Outstanding! Avatar notwithstanding, welcome!!

[RickK]

Originally Posted by SCfanatic35

This is exactly where we are at with the complaining. Since people are unwilling to try this, our group has now split into 2 groups. The original who still wants to fight and argue every weekend about what to do, and my group that wants to do it this way.  We have done it 1 time and it's way better.  I imagine they will come around when they get tired of arguing with each other or when they see how fair and easy our way is.

I would just look at them and say..."This is what we are doing, get over it.  Join in or run your group the way you want to."  If you are the one booking tee times, tell them they will need to book their own times in the future for their group.  All it took in our group was someone to step up, take charge, and tell everyone else how it would be.  Another thing it does with gross and net skins is spread the winnings around.  A person can win a gross skin and a net skin on the same hole.  It is not a matter of one or the other.  But, sometimes a guy wins with a gross skin on a hole that someone else wins it with a net skin in the other pot.  Also, we do not allow someone to only play in the gross skins game or only in the net skins game.  It is always combined net and gross.

Have fun.

[Club Rat]

Welcome to the "golfingbrother." SCfanatic35

There are many variations of playing a "skin game"

The most popular skins game is "Gross & Net Skins" where Net Skins use players Course Handicaps.

Many play a skins game where a value is set (either 50 cents or a buck per skin, with carry-overs)

Some game require "Validation" to win a skin.

Some games pay "double on Birdies"

Also popular is a two man team, skins game, either scramble or medal play format.

I'm sure there are many other variations which are played.

I run a large group Mens Game over the season with over 100 players in our club.

On Saturdays, we have between 25 - 60 players.

It is very time consuming figuring the winners and the payouts.

So, I wrote an Excel Spreadsheet which simplifies and reduces the time involved.

I use my laptop and connect it to a TV and everyone can view the results.

Once the final scores are posted, the payouts are automatically calculated within the Spreadsheet.

It shows which hole a skin is won on both Gross & Net and the value of the skin.

We play a $10 skins pot which is $5 for Gross & $5 for Net.

If anyone is interested, I have written these for mobile applications and can be used on most Smartphones.

It is simple to use and reduces errors and time for figuring out the winners and payouts.

There are also possibilities of getting all players on-board with mobile interactive live updating scoring.

Just send me  a "PM" and I'll be happy to share it.

Club Rat

[boil3rmak3r]

I used to play with a group that ranged from 15 to 30 guys.  We always played a team format in which every team competed against each other (i.e. if there are 7 teams, each team would be playing 6 matches...).  It was a bit more complicated than this, but a match was basically determined by which team won the most holes using 2 balls.  For example, if team 1 wins 5 holes, ties 12 holes, and loses 1 hole to team 2, team 1 would win the match by 4 holes.  Multiply that by whatever the bet amount was, and that's what team 2 owes team 1 (i.e. $5 per bet times 4 hole = $20).  They didn't do skins - instead, they counted all birdies as a "junk" (an eagle would be worth 2 "junks").  Each "junk" was also worth 1 bet.  So, in the example above, if team 1 had a combined 6 junks and team 2 had 4 junks, that added another $10 that team 2 owed team 1.

I probably didn't explain the above very well, but I really liked the format.  It took away from the (imo) boring method of each person throwing in $20 and then a payout is made for front/back/total.  You never knew if you were going to win $30, lose $30 or end up somewhere inbetween.  The junk thing also added some camaraderie amongst the team.  If I sink a 20 footer for birdie and a team member of mine has a 10 footer for birdie of his own, I am truly hoping he makes it because it counts as a junk for my team.  With a skins format, I would be hoping my team member misses his putt...

As Club Rat's guys do, we had a computer program that calculated winnings and losings for each team.

[Fozcycle]

I run a Saturday Game where we average 30+ Players, with Handicaps from 1 to 30.

To be fair to all, we play a Modified Stableford Points Game, 2 for par, 1 for bogey, 4 for eagle.......pick up at double bogey.  A newbie will play 3 times to qualify and get a Points Goal. Then, we keep an rolling average of the latest 10 rounds for the weekly Points Goal. We pay four places each week.  In addition, we pay for Closest to the Pin on Par 3's and pay Skins.  The Skins are not handicapped....they are what they are.

I am a 17 handicap...last week I carded an Eagle on a Par 4...and it paid the same as the skins did that day....it depends on the number of players and the number of skins that hold up.

I hold out $4 of the $20 paid from each player and we have a 2 day tourney every 6 months.  If you miss a week, you must make up the $4....so that all participants will contribute about $100 each over the six months.  It's a great tourney format.

[SCfanatic35]

Originally Posted by RickK

I would just look at them and say..."This is what we are doing, get over it.  Join in or run your group the way you want to."  If you are the one booking tee times, tell them they will need to book their own times in the future for their group.  All it took in our group was someone to step up, take charge, and tell everyone else how it would be.

Since I am the new guy in the group of 12, I don't have much clout to do that yet. But, what I have done is banded together all the annoyed ones and we have made our own group and are starting to play this way. The others guys playing the other way are starting to wonder what the heck is going on.  I think after a few more weeks they will eventually all convert to our way.  Either way, it is now the way we want to do it.

Originally Posted by Fozcycle

I run a Saturday Game where we average 30+ Players, with Handicaps from 1 to 30.

To be fair to all, we play a Modified Stableford Points Game, 2 for par, 1 for bogey, 4 for eagle.......pick up at double bogey.  A newbie will play 3 times to qualify and get a Points Goal. Then, we keep an rolling average of the latest 10 rounds for the weekly Points Goal. We pay four places each week.  In addition, we pay for Closest to the Pin on Par 3's and pay Skins.  The Skins are not handicapped....they are what they are.

So do you handicap for the Stableford points right? Otherwise high handicappers will lose most of the time.  Do you just add up points and top 4 get paid. I'm assuming a birdie is 3 in your scoring system.  I like the way this scoring works, maybe we will try this. Plus it helps guys like me who blow up on a few holes, but have the occasional great holes. I saw that there was something called modified stableford which scores -3,-1,0,+2,+5,+8, have you ever tried it that way or does that make it to much in favor of the better golfers?

[Fozcycle]

Originally Posted by SCfanatic35

So do you handicap for the Stableford points right? Otherwise high handicappers will lose most of the time.  Do you just add up points and top 4 get paid. I'm assuming a birdie is 3 in your scoring system.  I like the way this scoring works, maybe we will try this. Plus it helps guys like me who blow up on a few holes, but have the occasional great holes. I saw that there was something called modified stableford which scores -3,-1,0,+2,+5,+8, have you ever tried it that way or does that make it to much in favor of the better golfers?

A newbie starts with his Point Goal as the average points for 3 rounds.  Then, moving forward, the points goal each week is adjusted to equal the average op to the last 10 rounds.

Points are:

Double Bogey 0

Bogey 1

Par 2

Birdie 4

Eagle 6....same for hole in One on a Par 3

The top four Places are based upon the Net + / - from each players points goal.

So even a High Hcapper, shooting for 7 points could post a + points occassionally.

It all depends how you play against your points average.....the winners are spread out amonst all the players in the group...both High & Low Hcappers.

No I have never scored with the - points.