Utley Putting Stroke, Taking The Putter Back

[Golfingdad]

Originally Posted by iacas

So your SAM PuttLab analysis is taking place when...? :)

LOL!  I've all but decided that I want to get myself an Edel putter this year.  Now to strategize how to make that happen sooner, rather than later. :)

[dsc123]

Interesting discussion.

I was putting pretty well with a SBST with stiff arms and wrists trying to hold the angle and use the shoulders to hit the ball.  I didn't really like the way it looked and my head was moving all over.  I've changed to swinging more around the body and my putting has gotten worse, but I think that's mostly because I haven't worked very hard at it, compared to what I had done with the SBST.

The video of utley here was interesting to watch.  Just bought the AOP.

[Beachcomber]

Originally Posted by iacas

I won't mean this the way you're likely to take it: you were doing it wrong. Probably 99% of the people who say "wrist hinge" are doing it wrong. They're more "actively" using their wrists than the stroke I like.

For sure, I know I wasn't doing it right.  I never had a putting lesson, nor sought out instruction from anywhere.  I simply watched a few people I thought were good putters on the course I grew up playing, and tried to copy them.  Unfortunately, I wasn't happy with the results.  And I had to play a lot of golf - to be good with the 'wristy' putting stroke.

Originally Posted by iacas

In other words, you need to work on precisely the thing I said is inhibited by using more shoulders with "locked" (however soft you want, but unmoving) wrists? Is it just convenience that you've written it off entirely as "because I haven't practiced it?"

I think two things:

a) you're probably using your wrists more than you think already

b) you could probably stand to use them a little more, and not necessarily by "actively" using them.

I haven't practiced the longish (20ft+) downhill 3 to 4% slope lag putts because I don't have a very good putting green to practice those on.  There is a course I could go to, to practice, but I'm too lazy to drive over that way.  And tend to practice indoors at home (short putts) and then 10, 20ft putts at the practice area on the range I frequent.  But as said, there really isn't a good place to practice longer lag putts.

And I'm more self taught - even with my current putting stroke.  So I'm sure there are issues that I could clean up.  Here is a video of me practicing awhile back.  Now I'm bending a little more at the waist, and gripped further down the putter grip (about an 1" lower).

I'll take some updated video one of these days and repost...

[iacas]

Originally Posted by dsc123

The video of utley here was interesting to watch.  Just bought the AOP.

What's interesting about the video, IMO, is that it's not as exaggerated as the pictures from his book. So if the book gives you the impression (general "you" not you dsc) that Utley uses a lot of wrists, the video should help to dispel it. It's more wrists than some, but it's still not a "wristy" stroke.

Originally Posted by Beachcomber

I haven't practiced the longish (20ft+) downhill 3 to 4% slope lag putts because I don't have a very good putting green to practice those on.  There is a course I could go to, to practice, but I'm too lazy to drive over that way.  And tend to practice indoors at home (short putts) and then 10, 20ft putts at the practice area on the range I frequent.  But as said, there really isn't a good place to practice longer lag putts.

I think my point there was that my touch is great even when I haven't putted in weeks, because I can hit a few putts and "have" the speed. It's like trying to focus a microscope using only the large focus adjustment knob. You can do it, but it's much easier to get the image to roughly the right focus, then use the small adjustment knob to fine-tune it.

You use a lot more wrists than you think, but you under-use them on the backstroke and over-use them on the follow-through stroke.

Your putter head starts forward FIRST. Your wrist folds slightly during the backstroke, then unfolds slightly and the putter head starts down/forward before your hands do. I'd recommend the opposite: start the hands forward while the putter head is still moving backwards (we're talking about half an inch or so here) - again, a mini "float load" feel. The putter head should lag behind the ball the whole time.

Your SAM report would show too much loft at impact.

P.S. The BOC isn't moving nearly as much as you seem to think it has.

[dsc123]

Originally Posted by iacas

What's interesting about the video, IMO, is that it's not as exaggerated as the pictures from his book. So if the book gives you the impression (general "you" not you dsc) that Utley uses a lot of wrists, the video should help to dispel it. It's more wrists than some, but it's still not a "wristy" stroke.

Thanks.  I found a similar problem with his short game book.  Utley saying one thing and the pictures not really matching, as far as I could tell.

[Beachcomber]

Is the 154* taken on the first putt?  I ask as I believe that was a bad putt and I had too much wrist action through the follow through.  At least that is what it looks like on the miss.

[iacas]

Originally Posted by Beachcomber

Is the 154* taken on the first putt?  I ask as I believe that was a bad putt and I had too much wrist action through the follow through.  At least that is what it looks like on the miss.

Your pattern was pretty consistent on all putts. You start the downstroke with the putter head by "throwing" PA5 or "flipping" a little, then your hands try to catch up. :) The opposite would be better.

[cipher]

Check out the front shoulder drop in this video.  This is a really long put.  I was curious if he would also just use arm hinging for the most part on longer puts, but he does noticeably drop the front shoulder on the back swing.  That being said, he still seems to be feeling the distance through hinging and unhinging the wrists, the lowering of the shoulder just seems to be for the added distance maybe?  Looks like he all but drains the two puts he is actually trying on from 40+ feet.

[iacas]

Grabbed a putter and filmed while I worked on my own swing last night. Haven't been on the SAM much lately but this is my stroke and I'd probably score in the high 80s right now. My follow through is always longer than what the stroke dynamics would indicate - I reach peak speed just prior to impact, I just let the follow-through "coast" for a bit, typically with some later shoulder motion as I look down the line at the ball.

I think some of you will see more shoulder rotation than you'd have guessed from the posts above. Note that in the video I'm hitting putts near that hole, but it just happens to be there - I was just hitting putts that direction, not trying to make anything. All six balls (in groups of three) were close enough to be covered with a piece of paper, though.

My head appears to move quite a bit, but measured in degrees it's very little before impact. I've always been a pretty good putter, too, so I don't worry about some of the things. Setup looks good. The third stroke from FO was more "wristy" than even I like but the impact dynamics are almost the same, and I wanted to exaggerate one slightly so you could see what I consider "too much."

And don't make fun of the pants - they're entirely too small for me (they look fine when I don't have things in my pockets and when I'm standing up, but when I sit down, they also go halfway up my calves) - they're my "practice pants." They're just tight enough that I can feel how a lot of things are moving (sorry Mac, no super short shorts for me), but just loose enough that they don't actually restrict any motion. No normal motion for a golf swing, that is.

[cipher]

To my eye at least that looks very similar to utley's wrist action.  Seems very effortless, and void of tension.  It is nice to see how you work the shoulders with the wrist action on a medium length put like that.  Thanks for sharing.

[Mr. Desmond]

OMG - now you have me thinking about Utley again... lol ... but less wristy. When I remember watching Sergio, I know, Sergio is not a model for putting, the elbow movement and hinging was not that perceptible.

[birlyshirly]

Originally Posted by cipher

So he is folding the elbow slightly and hinging the wrists slightly, allowing for minimal shoulder movement.  In the video he talks about having his students take right handed and left handed swings only to see which is the better hand for putting.  I have often heard that you need to take the trailing arm/hand out of the swing.  This is why personally I started using double overlap grip to try and bring the leading hand more into the swing.  However from doing one handed puts, it is clear that my touch and control is mostly in my right hand.  Does anyone know what he would mean then by getting the weaker hand out of the way of the good hand from the video?

I would guess that he would stress the softening and slight folding of the left arm on the downswing - without flipping.

[iacas]

Originally Posted by Mr. Desmond

OMG - now you have me thinking about Utley again... lol ... but less wristy. When I remember watching Sergio, I know, Sergio is not a model for putting, the elbow movement and hinging was not that perceptible.

If what you're doing now works for you, don't change anything. Duh. :)

[Mr. Desmond]

Originally Posted by iacas

If what you're doing now works for you, don't change anything. Duh. :)

One should be open to new information or data, right?  :-)

But on another subject, thinking about my first lessons with Pat O'Brien, he did say to start the hands just before the shoulders ...

[cbrian]

I've listened to Utley speak to other teaching pros and he said that what he teaches may sound or feel very "handsy" or "wristy," but if you look at the stroke, it doesn't appear that way. From, what I've seen, he just wants you to use the hands "enough" to make the stroke easier to accomplish. If you allow the hands to do a little, then the rest of your body doesn't have to do so much.

[Mr. Desmond]

Originally Posted by cbrian

I've listened to Utley speak to other teaching pros and he said that what he teaches may sound or feel very "handsy" or "wristy," but if you look at the stroke, it doesn't appear that way. From, what I've seen, he just wants you to use the hands "enough" to make the stroke easier to accomplish. If you allow the hands to do a little, then the rest of your body doesn't have to do so much.

Great point.

You and Erik don't talk (with each other), do you?

:-)

After experimenting, I think both of you and Erik have made great points. A little bit of "hands" is beneficial.

[iacas]

That is how I was taught by a respected coach and that's how I play. It serves me well, and the folks I have played with that move their wrists like Erik did, miss more putts.

A few things:

1. I am a respected instructor.
2. Just because a "respected instructor" says something doesn't make it true. I respect the heck out of Sean Foley, but you can look up his nonsense about the sound a ball makes when it's "compressed" being about the air escaping at the seams. I respect the heck out of Butch Harmon, but the guy still thinks the ball starts along the path…
3. I doubt you'd have even noticed my wrists moving if I hadn't brought it up. It's barely there. It's subtle. I'm not telling people to have a "wristy" stroke. If a trained person isn't watching specifically for it, it shouldn't be terribly noticeable.
4. I chose myself in the "if you could have any pro's putting stroke." I'm a very good putter.

Also, I'm well aware of how 2 reads after 1. That's why I try to put out good information, and not rely on any "respect" or "authority" or "list of accomplishments" or anything like that very often. It's just golf instruction, after all.

It serves me well, and the folks I have played with that move their wrists like Erik did, miss more putts. Maybe that's why Erik missed all 3 putts?

I know you put the smiley there, but they weren't aimed at the hole. The text that's been on the YouTube video since I uploaded it over a year ago says (emphasis added now):

[Wangus94]

I just rock my shoulders and 'maintain the triangle'.... adjust the length to change distance. What's with all the silly quibbling? I doubt any of us who spend this much time on golf websites are ' respected'... lol.