Slow play at Los Angeles munis...something needs to be done

[SoundandFury]

If you've ever played one of the decent munies in LA (Harding, Wilson, Los Verdes), you'll know exactly what, and who I'm talking about.

If I'm stuck in a group with one more f**king old lady in a gigantic visor who takes 7 practice swings and a full minute to hit, only to hit each drive 100 yards, or another dude who waits for the green to clear from 220 out (knowing damn well he hasn't hit a ball 220 from the fairway in his life, and never will), I am going to tomahawk my 4 iron at them.

Would it be so hard for courses to ensure players who can't hit the ball more than 150 yard don't play from the tips? Or tell people not to actually climb into the bushes looking for their 25th errant shot of the day?

[Beachcomber]

I know there are going to be folks who read this and flame away at you SoundandFury (and probably me for my response)... But honestly, I know exactly what you are feeling.  I moved here from the Midwest.  And I've never, ever - never ever.... ever, ever, ever, ever... Seen courses play as slow as they do out here in Socal.  A six hour muni round is the norm here it seems which is ridiculous.

I remember when I first moved to Socal back in 2010... And one of my first rounds I played here was a muni in Semi Valley.... And the round was just under 7 hours for 18 holes.  I told myself after that round that I would never play that course again... Because I had never played a 6 hour round before - let alone nearly a 7 hour round.  Little did I know... A six hour round is the norm around here.  Especially if you are trying to play on the weekend (mid morning).

Hell, I remember a few months back when it was getting dark at 5:00 PM.  Me and a few friends booked a tee time at a local place (mid-scale public course)... And our tee time was at 11:30 on a Friday.  They were backed up at the first tee box... Running 3 groups behind the stated tee time.  And I was pressing the starter on why they were running so far behind.  And he gave me some about how they were still behind from a frost delay in the morning.  And I told him, I was frustrated because I didn't think we would get our round in before it was dark.  And the starter looked at me and said - 'Well you need to book an earlier tee time if you want to get 18 in before dark.' I looked at him and said... 'So you're telling me that you guys admit it takes 6 hours to play 18 holes during a weekday?'  He looked back at me and started changing his tone... I wanted to slap the guy I was so disgusted with him and the situation.

Really, I want to save my money and get a club membership somewhere so I don't have to deal with the public nonsense that goes on out here...

[MS256]

I'm thankful I live in an area where a loooooong round is 4 hrs.

I have never understood keeping score and playing every hole completely out and by the rules when the final score is going to be a 140.

Even people that are beginners with no natural ability to hit a golf ball keep up the pace of play by picking up a bad shot and taking it up to where a good shot would have been. Makes no sense to care about a score until they get better. In fact it would be demoralizing. My wife played that way for quite a while and could still be happy after a round from the few things she did right, which was mostly good putts and chips.

In time she got good enough to keep score without slowing down play.

[bkuehn1952]

Wow.  Kind of makes me feel bad about complaining when things are slow here in Michigan.  We rarely hit the 5 hour mark even on the busiest weekends.  Of course, we can only play 8-9 months a year so maybe your 6 hour rounds kind of balance the equation?

Are there any courses in your area that make a point to maintain pace (charge more but set-up 10 minutes splits, give rangers the power to issue refunds, etc ...) ?  When a course is noted for slow play, we vote with our feet.

[dak4n6]

Holy crap. I don't think anyone is going to flame you for ranting about 6 - 7 hr rounds. Now, I don't like when people insist that a 4 hr round is too long - that's BS - but your gripes are totally justified. It's not just socal. When I lived in the EBay, 5hr rounds were the norm. There's just too many damn golfers in The People's Republik of Kali...

[Clambake]

SoundAndFury, I know exactly what you're talking about.   I lived in LA for about 20 years, mostly on the west side, which is kind of no man's land for golf.    We'd play at places like Rancho Park, Balboa, Woodley, and the Griffith Park courses, and not only are the rounds slow but the traffic woes would pretty much ruin the day.    I last lived in Brentwood and it would sometimes take well over an hour to get home on a Saturday from Balboa just barely over the hill.   What was supposed to be a relaxing day often had me fuming by the time I got home.

Probably the worst was Rancho Park.   One day several coworkers and I decided to take a weekday off and play Rancho, assuming it would be better than the weekends.   Boy, were we wrong!       After a slow slog through the first four holes we arrived at the 5th tee to find a small crowd of people.   It turned out that we were the 5th foursome waiting on the tee .     Counting the groups on the green and waiting in the fairway and there 28 people playing that hole at that moment.   On a Tuesday!   It was #@$&ing; insane.     One of our group had enough and left, and the rest of us stuck in there.   The front nine alone took over 4 1/2 hours, and fortunately a lot of people must have bailed because we "blazed" through the back nine in only two hours.

It was so bad that I literally gave up golf.   It started as just a break for a few months that lasted years.    It wasn't until I moved to San Diego and was talked into playing again by a coworker that I discovered the game could be fun again.   The public golf here doesn't fly around the course in 3 hours, but it seems most rounds are 4 to 4 1/2 hours (and occasionally well under 4 hours), and then the traffic getting home is almost always quick.   And there are a little over 90 courses within a 30 minute drive from my house, counting all the private, par 3, and exec courses, so we have great variety as well.

By the way, I didn't find the private club option to be very workable in LA either.   I had a couple friends who had belonged to Braemar, but they left because a combination of getting tired of the course (which was very target golf) and the weekend rounds were getting too long.    I had an opportunity to join Riviera, but at that time they had 1200 members for 1 course and had gone to a lottery system for weekend tee times.  In retrospect I should have done it anyway, but at the time I didn't really appreciate how special that place was and I didn't want to shell out $100k only to find that I couldn't play any weekend I wanted to.    Bel Air CC had a great junior exec deal at $45k but some pretty big assessments coming up.   Unless one wanted to drive a long way (sitting in bad traffic) the options were pretty slim.

For those of you condemned to public muni golf in LA, especially the west side, you have my deepest sympathies.   You do have some course options now that weren't there when I lived there, like Rustic Canyon, but you have to drive a ways to get there and that is no picnic in LA.

[daSeth]

About 10 years ago, I tried to walk on as a single at Knollwood.  It took an hour and a half before I could get out.  There were some ten singles before me.  Only in SoCal...  Ended up in a fivesome.  Turns out every group was a fivesome.  If you can imagine every hole with ten guys (and sometimes 15) sitting and waiting to tee off.  The round turned out to play 6.5 or 7 hours.  I tried Balboa, same thing.  I tried Woodley Lakes, same thing.  I tried the couses by the zoo, same thing.  I gave up.  On rare occacsion when I play a muni, it is the back nine in the morning before everyone makes the turn.  Don't imagine I'll play 18 at a muni in SoCal, ever.  Come to think of it, I don't think I have ever played the front 9 at Simi Hills (moved to Simi five years ago).

I promise you that nothing will be done about this.  As I understand it, part of the deal with the City of LA is that the marshals are not allowed to say anything to players regarding anyting, let alone slow play.  Some LA PC crap.

I went private...  If you can't do private, bag LA munis and travel a bit.  Driving time vs. slow play will be a wash.  At least you will enjoy yourself.  There is a great couse in Palmdale, Rancho Vista Golf Course.  If you haven't played there, you should make at least one trip.  Try to get out in the morning as the afternoon wind is brutal.  But if there is the Santa Ana condition in LA, any time of the day is good in Palmdale (well, now that I think of it, there can be frost early morning when there is Santa Ana condition).

I can also speak for few of the faster Ventura county courses.  Moorpark CC is semi private and a really nice place to play.  You can get on in the afternoons for a pretty good price.  Lost Canyons in Simi is a bit run down.  It's gotten reasonably cheap recently, and not a lot of people on it.  It's good for a fast round.  Play the Sky course, avoid the Shadow course.  I have played Sterling Hills in Camarillo.  It's a lot of fun and it's not bad at all in terms of time.  Elkins Ranch in Fillmore is a bit further but cheap and fast.  You can get on at Tierra Rejada in Moorpark, but I don't care for the course too much.

Good luck...

[daSeth]

Oh yeah, Rustic in Moorpark is not bad.  Good call Clambake.  Totally forgot about it.  It does gets a little busy though, usually 4+ hours.  I think the press has soemthing to do with that.  Rustic has shown up in Golf Digest lists for public courses.

Robinson Ranch in Santa Clarita is another one I want to check out.  Have heard a lot of good things about it.

[14ledo81]

My home course offers a $16 twilight rate starting at 4:00 pm.  For an extra $10 you can take a cart.  Mid-summer it gets dark around 9:30.  That leaves me 5 1/2 hours to play.  With the cart and an empty course (which it generally is at that time), I can do 9 holes in an hour.  There have been many nights where I have played 45 holes.

[Stretch]

Originally Posted by Clambake

After a slow slog through the first four holes we arrived at the 5th tee to find a small crowd of people. It turned out that we were the 5th foursome waiting on the tee. Counting the groups on the green and waiting in the fairway and there 28 people playing that hole at that moment. On a Tuesday! It was #@$&ing; insane.

I would give up golf, too, rather than deal with that. No!

[David in FL]

[QUOTE name="Clambake" url="/t/65510/slow-play-at-los-angeles-munis-something-needs-to-be-done#post_820462"] After a slow slog through the first four holes we arrived at the 5th tee to find a small crowd of people. It turned out that we were the 5th foursome waiting on the tee . Counting the groups on the green and waiting in the fairway and there 28 people playing that hole at that moment. On a Tuesday! It was #@$[/QUOTE] I would give up golf, too, rather than deal with that. No!

I would have ended up on the nightly news....... :-O

[Beachcomber]

Originally Posted by daSeth

Robinson Ranch in Santa Clarita is another one I want to check out.  Have heard a lot of good things about it.

RR is a solid course.  I've only played it once, but it was a joy.

And the 7 hr round I elluded to in my post above... That was Simi Hills.  I'll never play that course again.

[nevets88]

Similar situation in NYC. And I did quit for several years. But I started back up and just deal with it. Drive further, 9 holes, etc. Even the semi to high end publics suffer from slow play. Average at Bethpage at any of the 5 courses is 5:30 on the weekends. And they have cleared lots of trees and bunkers and made the courses play as easy as possible. Some of the holes look barren and naked compared to what they were. 6:30 is probably the worse. 7+ at some of the Bronx munis. The demographic in big cities is just too diverse and it's impossible to get down to a 4 hour round. If people tried, imho best case is 4:30.

[Beachcomber]

Probably the worst was Rancho Park.   One day several coworkers and I decided to take a weekday off and play Rancho, assuming it would be better than the weekends.   Boy, were we wrong!       After a slow slog through the first four holes we arrived at the 5th tee to find a small crowd of people.   It turned out that we were the 5th foursome waiting on the tee.     Counting the groups on the green and waiting in the fairway and there 28 people playing that hole at that moment.   On a Tuesday!   It was #@$&ing; insane.     One of our group had enough and left, and the rest of us stuck in there.   The front nine alone took over 4 1/2 hours, and fortunately a lot of people must have bailed because we "blazed" through the back nine in only two hours.

Costa Mesa's muni - Mesa Linda - I've only played it once, and that was enough for me... Similar situation.  We had just hit our approach shots into the first green.  And I was driving the cart with my Father when I laughed and pointed... 'It looks like we've got a little traffic jam on #2?'  There were three groups on the tee box of the Par 3... So a total of six golf carts were wrapped around the side.  And a fourth group was on the green when we pulled up (so now there was a total of 5 groups on the Par 3).  The sad thing is... The hole is only 112yds from the whites, and 131yds from the blues (tips).  I have no idea why the hole was backed-up that bad?  I asked the groups ahead of us why there was a traffic jam, and they all just shrugged their shoulders. And of course a ranger is nowhere to be found. The good news, is that it did speed up and I ended up having a fun time playing golf with my Pops.

Originally Posted by daSeth

I promise you that nothing will be done about this.  As I understand it, part of the deal with the City of LA is that the marshals are not allowed to say anything to players regarding anyting, let alone slow play.  Some LA PC crap.

I don't know why... But this seems to be the normal protocol for Marshall's here in OC too.  They just drive there cart around and wave at people.  Literally, I registered ~70 rounds in 2012.  Many of them on muni courses here... And I didn't see one Marshall direct traffic - or ask people to pick up their pace of play.  In fact, the only time in 2012 where a Marshall said anything about the pace of play, was when I played in Chandler, AZ (Ocotillo) and some old guy told us to speed up play when there was easily 2 open holes behind us.  I kind of chuckled and thought to myself... Now why can't we get more of his type in Socal?

[RayG]

Similar situation in NYC. And I did quit for several years. But I started back up and just deal with it. Drive further, 9 holes, etc. Even the semi to high end publics suffer from slow play. Average at Bethpage at any of the 5 courses is 5:30 on the weekends. And they have cleared lots of trees and bunkers and made the courses play as easy as possible. Some of the holes look barren and naked compared to what they were. 6:30 is probably the worse. 7+ at some of the Bronx munis. The demographic in big cities is just too diverse and it's impossible to get down to a 4 hour round. If people tried, imho best case is 4:30.

I'll agree with that... If, for example, I wanted to play 18 at Clearview on a Saturday as a single w/o a pre-booked time, I might wait 1.5 or 2 hours for an opening, only to slog around in 6 hours or even more. Several years ago, I realized I could drive less than an hour away on LI, get out as a single in 15-20 minutes, play in less than 5 hrs and drive home in sometimes less than the time I would have playing Clearview. To make matters worse if I play at Split Rock or Pelham- I have to pay the tolls! Even though there is more driving involved, I know I'm in a better mood since I haven't sat around for 15 minutes on every hole for "Lesson Man" or "Hawker Lady"....

[justtapitin]

Originally Posted by Beachcomber

RR is a solid course.  I've only played it once, but it was a joy.

And the 7 hr round I elluded to in my post above... That was Simi Hills.  I'll never play that course again.

Good to know because I'm going to play there tomorrow.

Heard that it's pretty hard course, though....

My worst experience is definitely Brookside for sure.

Lots of 5some and from tip...this course is not that short people!!!

[SoundandFury]

I've had a little bit better of a time with Brookside, though I've definitely had a couple 5+ bc the *******s in front of me, as usual thought they should hit from the tips (this is on Brookside #1, which is a pretty damn long course).

RR and the like are great courses, they're just: 1) far, 2) expensive (as far as playing consistently), and 3) very challenging (for me at least, i'm sure they're perfect for others).  The worst offenders in my opinion are the griffith park courses, which is a shame because wilson and harding are really nice courses with a ton of history.  the clientele simply has no sense of how slow they are, and since many, if not the majority, don't speak a lick of english, it's not something you can explain to them.

[Chas]

Agree with Clambake that in San Diego the average is about 4.5 hr - almost never over 5 and sometimes under 4. If I'd experienced what you had Clambake I might have put the clubs on eBay the next day. Appalling. So the question is begged: why do you guys think things seem to be much slower in LA then a couple hours south in SD? More newbies, proportionately?, older, poorly designed courses?, more old fogies, proportionately?, more out-of-work actors/actresses? :), more people high on something? .... :>), what's up???