Testing a Hazard - Stacy Lewis/Founders Cup

[Golfingdad]

Originally Posted by bplewis24

Like 3-4 years ago when I started getting serious about golf, I played as a single and got paired up with a pretty solid golfer (he finished 1 over for our 9 hole round).  I remember him giving me bunker tips, and the only one that has stayed with me all these years is when he spoke of really digging in with your feet to get a feel for the sand.  I'm assuming we all do this...and I didn't even realize until just now how close to the edge of the rules that is.  Now, I've never done this anywhere other than where my normal stance would be when addressing the ball.  But, still, it seems like a loophole to a certain extent.

Well said ... that's exactly how I feel about it too.  Granted, it's easy enough to draw the line at "the player can only do it when taking their stance, and the caddy can't do it at all" but it still is a little loophole-ish. :)  Because, like I said before, you aren't learning anything more than you will when taking your stance.

Grey area time:  Are you allowed to line up to the ball and dig in as if you are about to hit and then back off and think about it?  Or are you allowed to dig in and take a shadow swing without a club in hand?

[bplewis24]

Originally Posted by luu5

But as rules allow it then why not use. You can even take stance and dig your feet, and then climb up and change clubs and get back in. Just do not smooth the steps in between.

13-4/0-5

Q: What is meant by “test the condition of the hazard” in Rule 13-4a?

A: The term covers all actions by which the player could gain more information about the hazard than could be gained from taking his stance for the stroke to be made, bearing in mind that a certain amount of digging in with the feet in the sand or soil is permitted when taking the stance for a stroke.

Examples of actions that would not constitute testing the condition of the hazard include the following:

digging in with the feet for a stance, including for a practice swing, anywhere in the hazard or in a similar hazard;

Examples of actions that would constitute testing the condition of the hazard in breach of Rule 13-4a include the following:

digging in with the feet in excess of what would be done for a stance for a stroke or a practice swing;

Look how fine (read: subjective) the line is in the above rule.  Digging in is fine, digging in in excess is not fine.  Who or how is that determined?  That was my original point.

I will say, though, that I'm surprised at some of what they allow in that rule.

[luu5]

Originally Posted by bplewis24

Look how fine (read: subjective) the line is in the above rule.  Digging in is fine, digging in in excess is not fine.  Who or how is that determined?  That was my original point.

I will say, though, that I'm surprised at some of what they allow in that rule.

It is all in intent.

[dave67az]

Originally Posted by Golfingdad

I don't think you're being fair to the caddy.  I couldn't get the video to work on my computer, but I'm pretty sure that as she is walking out of the bunker she summons him into it by waving her hand.  Obviously, she didn't ask him to bounce on the balls of his feet or anything, but that is probably the natural insinct of anybody going into the bunker while having a conversation about the sand.  The dude probably never enters the bunker other than to rake it, so he doesn't (correction: didn't - I'm sure he does now) have any kind of protocol for what to do there.

Anyways, I would venture a guess that the decision by players, male and female - but definitely more female, to have their caddies be more hands on is just that; the players decision.  Other than carrying clubs, their number 1 job, as far as I can tell, is psychologist.  A caddie, in general - not in all cases though, is the ultimate suck-up, yes-man because the player needs to be confident at all times.  If that means confirming their putting line at the last second, they do it.  If it means reading the putt just like the player (a la Mickelsons caddie) they do that too.  Or, if it just means agreeing with them no matter what club they choose to use even if its the last one you'd pick, they do that also.  (Off topic:  Love the commercial with Davis Love where his caddie makes him hit 2-iron because he dumped all the other clubs because they the bag was too heavy, then says "2-iron?  Really?  That's way too much club.")

Side Note:  Very commendable of Lewis to just admit the mistake, take the penalty, stand by her caddy, learn from it, and move on.  Somebody already mentioned it earlier, but there are certainly other players who would not have that kind of class.  Some would gripe about the penalty and argue that they weren't testing the sand, and others would probably throw their caddie under the bus.

I do admire you for always wanting to give guys the benefit of the doubt.  But I don't remember Stacy asking or signalling Travis into the bunker.  Unfortunately the golf channel website is down right now, so I'm gonna take a free drop for "ground under repair" and play it from HERE...

In Stacy's interview, the first question she is asked is the same question MANY of us want to ask, and her response doesn't seem to back up your theory that she invited him into the bunker...

(video here...NOT on the Golf Channel, thank goodness)  http://www.lpga.com/media-library/videos/2013/tournaments/rr-donnelley/third-round/lewis-third-round.aspx

Repoter:  "Just curious why he was in the bunker?"

Stacy:  "I think he was just walking over to look at the lie. I mean, he walks in the bunker occasionally to look at the shot.  That's not, kinda, out of the norm for him.  So, I don't know what he was trying to do truthfully, I mean...that's...he says he wasn't trying to do it so, I mean, I believe him."

[Golfingdad]

Originally Posted by dave67az

I do admire you for always wanting to give guys the benefit of the doubt.

Never been accused otherwise.

Originally Posted by dave67az

In Stacy's interview, the first question she is asked is the same question MANY of us want to ask, and her response doesn't seem to back up your theory that she invited him into the bunker...

(video here...NOT on the Golf Channel, thank goodness)  http://www.lpga.com/media-library/videos/2013/tournaments/rr-donnelley/third-round/lewis-third-round.aspx

Repoter:  "Just curious why he was in the bunker?"

Stacy:  "I think he was just walking over to look at the lie. I mean, he walks in the bunker occasionally to look at the shot.  That's not, kinda, out of the norm for him.  So, I don't know what he was trying to do truthfully, I mean...that's...he says he wasn't trying to do it so, I mean, I believe him."

Ah, you're right then.  Otherwise, she would have just said "I asked him to go in there."

Also interesting based on her quote would be, if it were available, video of all the other times her caddy has gone into bunkers where her ball lie.  He obviously didn't know what he did was wrong until later, so I would venture a guess that he's probably done it before.

I would still contend, however, that no caddies are going to keep their jobs too long by 'going rogue' and/or bossing their players around on where to aim putts, etc., unless it was what the player wanted.

[newtogolf]

The video makes it appear like he was testing the sand for her.  She deserved to be penalized imo and handled it very well.

With regards to testing the sand, if someone drops something (hat, divot tool, club) in the hazard (accidently or intentionally) and picks it up would that be a penalty as well?

[Golfingdad]

Originally Posted by newtogolf

With regards to testing the sand, if someone drops something (hat, divot tool, club) in the hazard (accidently or intentionally) and picks it up would that be a penalty as well?

Pretty sure that's where the "intent" comes into play.  If I recall, you are even allowed to ground your club in the sand if it's to catch your balance when you're about to fall.  I also believe you are allowed to put the rake down and set extra clubs down so long as there is no intent.

[luu5]

Originally Posted by newtogolf

With regards to testing the sand, if someone drops something (hat, divot tool, club) in the hazard (accidently or intentionally) and picks it up would that be a penalty as well?

Those are his equipment and not loose impediments, so they can be removed. Same as putting your golf bag in hazard.

[dave67az]

Originally Posted by Golfingdad

Never been accused otherwise.

Ah, you're right then.  Otherwise, she would have just said "I asked him to go in there."

Also interesting based on her quote would be, if it were available, video of all the other times her caddy has gone into bunkers where her ball lie.  He obviously didn't know what he did was wrong until later, so I would venture a guess that he's probably done it before.

I would still contend, however, that no caddies are going to keep their jobs too long by 'going rogue' and/or bossing their players around on where to aim putts, etc., unless it was what the player wanted.

See, here's another point of contention for me. It wasn't an LPGA official who spotted the incident and questioned it.  It was a viewer who saw it on the broadcast and called it in.  This bugged me to some extent because I thought one of the reasons the officials were on the course is not just to answer questions on the rules, but to actually watch the golfers to make sure the rules are followed.  We're talking about a golfer in the final group who wasn't being watched by the officials.  I've never had the pleasure of attending a pro event, much less played in one, but I guess I just assumed the course officials would do a better job of calling out incidents like this instead of having to rely on at-home viewers to do their job for them.

It does make you wonder if Travis has done this every time he's entered a bunker for her before, maybe because he thought as long as he didn't disturb the sand or dig in his feet that he could "test the surface" by walking in the bunker and bouncing his weight on his feet.

Originally Posted by newtogolf

The video makes it appear like he was testing the sand for her.  She deserved to be penalized imo and handled it very well.

With regards to testing the sand, if someone drops something (hat, divot tool, club) in the hazard (accidently or intentionally) and picks it up would that be a penalty as well?

Since it sounds like most of the rule is based on "intent", I guess it would come down to whether or not the golfer is honest about it.  But as Stacy found out, if there's any question you're probably better off taking the penalty and not having people think you're trying to get away with something.

Kudos to her for not letting it ruin her next day, starting 3 strokes down in the final round and using it as a motivator to propel her to another win and the #1 spot on the Tour.

[Rulesman]

Originally Posted by newtogolf

The video makes it appear like he was testing the sand for her.  She deserved to be penalized imo and handled it very well.

With regards to testing the sand, if someone drops something (hat, divot tool, club) in the hazard (accidently or intentionally) and picks it up would that be a penalty as well?

This is worth reading

http://www.usga.org/Rule-Books/Rules-of-Golf/Rule-13/#13-4

and this

http://www.usga.org/Rule-Books/Rules-of-Golf/Decision-13/#13-4/0.5

[SWBYPS]

Originally Posted by luu5

It is all in intent.

Well I "intend" to test the surface when walking in a bunker. Perfect example....I regularly play at a course where many bunkers dont have much sand in them. If you're not careful or not paying attention, you might hit behind the ball into what is virtually hardpan with 1/2 inch of sand over it. You need to be aware of this when deciding how to play the shot. When I take my stance by the ball, im feeling just how far my feet are going down in that area. You cant have much more intent than that. A "loophole" was mentioned earlier and basically thats what it is. Obviously you have to be able to take your stance....and obviously (if you're smart) you will be paying attention to the surface.

[Golfingdad]

Originally Posted by dave67az

See, here's another point of contention for me. It wasn't an LPGA official who spotted the incident and questioned it.  It was a viewer who saw it on the broadcast and called it in.  This bugged me to some extent because I thought one of the reasons the officials were on the course is not just to answer questions on the rules, but to actually watch the golfers to make sure the rules are followed.  We're talking about a golfer in the final group who wasn't being watched by the officials.  I've never had the pleasure of attending a pro event, much less played in one, but I guess I just assumed the course officials would do a better job of calling out incidents like this instead of having to rely on at-home viewers to do their job for them.

Totally agree.  In fact, I mentioned it in the other thread yesterday ... complete with what I thought was a nice, subtle, dig at Steelers fans but I got no bites. (maybe I was too subtle)

http://thesandtrap.com/t/65410/rr-donnelly-founders-cup-preview-pairings/0_30#post_821086

[dave67az]

Originally Posted by Rulesman

This is worth reading

http://www.usga.org/Rule-Books/Rules-of-Golf/Rule-13/#13-4

and this

http://www.usga.org/Rule-Books/Rules-of-Golf/Decision-13/#13-4/0.5

Sometimes I crack myself up.

After reading this...

1. Provided nothing is done that constitutes testing the condition of the hazard or improves the lie of the ball, there is no penalty if the player (a) touches the ground or loose impediments in any hazard or water in a water hazard as a result of or to prevent falling , in removing an obstruction , in measuring or in marking the position of, retrieving, lifting, placing or replacing a ball under any Rule or (b) places his clubs in a hazard .

...and my first thought was picturing Stacy talking to Travis on the side of the bunker, after which Travis shoves Tracy into the bunker, she falls down, and in doing so learns all she wanted to know about how hard/deep the sand is.

THIS, is a caddie who goes above and beyond to help their player!

[dave67az]

Originally Posted by Golfingdad

Totally agree.  In fact, I mentioned it in the other thread yesterday ... complete with what I thought was a nice, subtle, dig at Steelers fans but I got no bites.   (maybe I was too subtle)

http://thesandtrap.com/t/65410/rr-donnelly-founders-cup-preview-pairings/0_30#post_821086

Yeah, you may have to be less subtle if you want Steelers fans to understand your digs.

[Golfingdad]

Originally Posted by dave67az

Yeah, you may have to be less subtle if you want Steelers fans to understand your digs.

He said it! ^^^  Not me!

[newtogolf]

Thanks guys, I figured it was similar to touching the sand with your hand or club if you were off balance but wasn't sure.

Given these rules, it makes sense for golfers to go barefoot or wear minimalist shoes so they can legally get more information about the condition of the sand compared to the shoes with a lot of support and cushioning.

[Rulesman]

Originally Posted by dave67az

I thought one of the reasons the officials were on the course is not just to answer questions on the rules, but to actually watch the golfers to make sure the rules are followed.  We're talking about a golfer in the final group who wasn't being watched by the officials.  I've never had the pleasure of attending a pro event, much less played in one, but I guess I just assumed the course officials would do a better job of calling out incidents like this instead of having to rely on at-home viewers to do their job for them.

Even the pro tours cannot afford to have a referee watching every player on the course all the time.

[Beachcomber]

Originally Posted by dave67az

Okay, finally some video.  Recommend fast-forwarding to about 10:50 into the video to see the incident with clear audio.

Still blows me away.

http://www.golfchannel.com/media/golf-central-saturday/

Honestly, it kind of begs the question, why are many of the caddies on the LPGA tour doing things like this that seem "intrusive" (to me at least).  I mean there's no way Stacy Lewis needs THAT much help in her game.  Is it a guy thing?  Do male caddies for female golfers feel a need to control more of the game because they think ladies NEED more help?

Video doesn't work.