2013 Masters Discussion Thread, Update with Tiger's Illegal Drop (Post #343)

[Rick Martin]

Originally Posted by Cracker24

Quote:

Originally Posted by iacas

You guys signed off the chat prematurely.

See my Twitter feed, or https://www.facebook.com/iacas/posts/10151392268769227 .

Eric, given that it seems you're the only person who noticed this and then made other people aware. I'll remind you now that you could be about to become one of the most disliked men in golf if Tiger gets DQ'ed.

The Steve Bartman of PGA Golf.

[Mordan]

Originally Posted by turtleback

I don't think he used the 26-1a, replay the last shot, option.  He said he moved back and to the left.  I don't think the ball rebounded as far left as people seem to think.  It is almost impossible to get a real idea of the actual angle from TV.  From where he was it probably looked like it rebounded almost directly back at him, just slightly to the left of his original flight line.  So under 26-1b he moved slightly left and back as far as he wanted to.

I hope you're right turtleback. It didn't look like the ball went back at him to me after it hit the flagstick, but it's pretty hard to judge these things from TV.

It shouldn't be too hard to get to the bottom of it on the ground though. I just hope they resolve it in such a way as to leave no doubt, the last thing we need is it dragging on and overshadowing the golf.

[BallStriker]

Originally Posted by turtleback

I don't think the ball rebounded as far left as people seem to think.  It is almost impossible to get a real idea of the actual angle from TV.  From where he was it probably looked like it rebounded almost directly back at him, just slightly to the left of his original flight line.  So under 26-1b he moved slightly left and back as far as he wanted to.

My opinion is that the video shows something different....if you pause right before he hits, the shadow of the flagstick is pointing almost directly on his line to the hole......when it hits the stick, it goes well to the right (from the back view) of that line into the hazard.........that said, he had the sun in his eyes and very easily could've thought it came right back.......no way one could argue with him if he insisted that he thought the ball came straight back.....

[turtleback]

Originally Posted by BallStriker

My opinion is that the video shows something different....if you pause right before he hits, the shadow of the flagstick is pointing almost directly on his line to the hole......when it hits the stick, it goes well to the right (from the back view) of that line into the hazard.........that said, he had the sun in his eyes and very easily could've thought it came right back.......no way one could argue with him if he insisted that he thought the ball came straight back.....

Due respect, you can't tell diddly from that camera angle.

And that Decision I quoted protects him in case he made an honest error in determining where the ball last crossed the margin of the hazard.

I think the whole argument based on the assumption that he was taking relief under 26-1a is the red herring in this whole situation.  You cannot move left under 26-1a and he clearly said that he moved left.  Why?  To keep the point where the ball last crossed between his drop and the flagstick.

[Cracker24]

Originally Posted by turtleback

Due respect, you can't tell diddly from that camera angle.

And that Decision I quoted protects him in case he made an honest error in determining where the ball last crossed the margin of the hazard.

I think the whole argument based on the assumption that he was taking relief under 26-1a is the red herring in this whole situation.  You cannot move left under 26-1a and he clearly said that he moved left.  Why?  To keep the point where the ball last crossed between his drop and the flagstick.

It's his only chance I guess, unless Augusta decide to ignore it altogether of course. I'm sure if Tiger said this there would be widespread outrage from the golfing community, but in the end if Tiger says that he genuinely thought the ball came back on that line then nobody can dispute him. A calculated risk to the TW brand though, just when it's beginning to picking itself up again.

I think what actually happened was Tiger, in the heat of the moment, forgot that it was where the ball last entered the hazard, and instead took a drop in line with where the ball initially crossed the hazard line. Hence why he moved the slightest bit to the left, as he's said that he hit the shot with a tiny cut.

[Alanlinks]

The talk over here is that Tiger himself said he dropped the ball back 2 yards to give himself a better shot. That is against the rules and he should be disqualified. Not sure on the rule myself but, he did drop the ball further back.

[dkling8]

Originally Posted by turtleback

Due respect, you can't tell diddly from that camera angle.

And that Decision I quoted protects him in case he made an honest error in determining where the ball last crossed the margin of the hazard.

I think the whole argument based on the assumption that he was taking relief under 26-1a is the red herring in this whole situation.  You cannot move left under 26-1a and he clearly said that he moved left.  Why?  To keep the point where the ball last crossed between his drop and the flagstick.

He only moved his second ball left by about 1 foot. I hate to get all mathy and stuff, but if he's about 85 yards from the pin and only moves the ball 1 foot left, that means the ball would have had to ricochet back within about 0.25 degrees of dead straight. Suppose the ball bounces back only 5 degrees to his left, he would be playing his second shot from at least 7 yards left of where his first shot was from, not 1 foot.

I understand things don't have to be exact, but the ball would literally have to bounce EXACTLY straight back at him for him to hit his second shot from only 1 foot left.

[Rick Martin]

Originally Posted by inthehole

Quote:

Originally Posted by colin007

the kid is going to finish at +14.

haters gonna hate.

Good thing they locked the prediction thread. I said he'd shoot a couple of mid-80s. Happy to be wrong. Even more impressed with his handling of the penalty and all the interviews he's had.  Sure hope this kid ends up being a great one for us to watch over the years -like we did with TW.  We (golf fans of the 1990s, 2000s) have had a special player to follow, and it looks like there's one coming down the pike.

[Rick Martin]

AUGUSTA, Ga. -- Tiger Woods got a bad break when his approach shot to the par-5 15th green bounced off the flagstick and into the water during Friday's second round.

He might also have taken a bad drop.

Masters officials are expected to review the situation Saturday morning, which could lead to disqualification if it is deemed Woods dropped the ball in the wrong spot.

Because Woods signed his scorecard for a 1-under 71 without adding the 1-stroke penalty, he would be disqualified because he put a six on his scorecard instead of a seven.

Woods had 87 yards to the hole for his third shot and saw his ball hit the flagstick and then roll back off the green and into the water.

Under Rule 26-1, Woods had three options at the yellow-staked (not lateral) hazard, which is a pond that fronts the green:

• He could have played from a designated drop area, which he chose not to do because he did not like the lie.

• He could have dropped the ball, keeping the point at which it last crossed the margin of the water between the hole and the spot on which the ball would be dropped. Since the ball entered the water well left of Woods' position from the fairway, it would seem he did not choose this option, which would have allowed him to drop on a straight line as far back as he wanted.

• Or he could return to the original spot from which he played, and drop "as nearly as possible'' from where he played the third shot.

This is the option Woods took, and in interviews afterward, he said he dropped "two yards'' behind the original spot. Replays seemed to suggest he was closer than that, but the question is if that is considered "as nearly as possible'' to the original spot.

On a CBS-TV highlights show late Friday night, analyst David Feherty showed the replay and said he believed the drop was illegal.

Augusta National officials were not available for comment early Saturday morning, but golf's rules officials typically review any possible violations brought to their attention.

http://espn.go.com/golf/blog/_/name/golf/id/9166946/tiger-woods-taken-illegal-drop-15th-hole-round-2-masters-golf

[Alanlinks]

Tiger Woods could face disqualification from the Masters for an alleged illegal drop during his second round at Augusta.

World number one Woods saw his approach shot at the 15th hit the flag stick then spin back into the water, just as he was making a charge to the top of the leaderboard.

He decided against playing from the drop-zone and instead went back to where his original shot was played, but decided to move two yards further back, from where he produced a stunning shot to make bogey.

Hole 15 hurt Woods

However, rule 26-1 states that he should play his second attempt as near as possible from the spot of the first, and in Woods' own words he decided to move it two yards back.

"I went down to the drop area, that wasn't going to be a good spot, because obviously it's into the grain and it was a little bit wet," said Woods.

"I went back to where I played it from, but I went two yards further back and I took, tried to take two yards off the shot of what I felt I hit. I felt that that was going to be the right decision to take off four right there. And I did, it worked out perfectly."

It is Woods' own admission that he moved the ball further back that could be his undoing, as that could be deemed by officials to be a breach of the rules, and that would carry a two-shot penalty.

However, since Woods has already signed his scorecard, it would then get even worse as signing for an incorrect scorecard comes with the penalty of disqualification from the event.

While it would be a huge move from Masters officials to throw the world number one out of the prestigious event, Sky Sports pundit David Howell told Masters Breakfast that Woods is right on the edge with his drop.

"He's exactly on the border, one more yard and Tiger's being disqualified, I don't think any of the officials would be able to give him that much leeway," said Howell.

"He's right on the limit. If he's done it deliberately because he preferred one more yard then he should be disqualified. If he just thought it was near enough then that's fine but only he knows really."

With reports of the incident growing, Masters officials face a huge problem when they get back to Augusta on Saturday with the biggest name in golf under scrutiny.

Especially after teenager Tianlang Guan was docked a shot for slow play, there will be calls for the rules to be adhered to strictly again in the Woods case.

[turtleback]

Originally Posted by Alanlinks

The talk over here is that Tiger himself said he dropped the ball back 2 yards to give himself a better shot. That is against the rules and he should be disqualified. Not sure on the rule myself but, he did drop the ball further back.

I don't know if my position is right or wrong on this, but I am curious as to why you would post an opinion in a rules discussion when you self-admittedly do not know the rule?  It just seems strange to me.

[Alanlinks]

I am just saying its what is being reported over here, whilst I am not sure on the rule. I am not saying he should be disqualified, I am just posting what is being reported as in my link above.

[Mordan]

Here's a video of it:

If you look at the shadow of the flagstick when he's lining up the shot, it is pointing almost straight back at him.

If you then look at the difference between the angle of the shadow of the flagstick, and the direction that the ball heads off the green after striking the flagstick the difference is significant. Maybe 30 degrees?

The only way he could claim that he thought it came back at him would be if he could barely see, and in that case surely it is up to him to ask around for a little of the help that is all around him to help determine the point that it last crossed the hazard. It's hardly honest to just assume if you couldn't see, especially with plenty of help around to determine the correct spot.

[crayputter]

'as nearly as possible'......is there is a definite distance for 'nearly' in this instance ? I mean, Tiger could have said 2 yards, but it could have been just 3-4 feet from where he last struck the ball....does him saying 2 yards MEAN it to be deemed as exactly 2 yards ?

3 feet and 6 feet aren't exactly miles apart you know.....

Ray

[Mordan]

'as nearly as possible'......is there is a definite distance for 'nearly' in this instance ? I mean, Tiger could have said 2 yards, but it could have been just 3-4 feet from where he last struck the ball....does him saying 2 yards MEAN it to be deemed as exactly 2 yards ? 3 feet and 6 feet aren't exactly miles apart you know..... Ray

Can Tiger honestly say that he couldn't have dropped it closer? The rule asks him to do his best to drop it as close as be possibly can. He knew exactly where his original shot was from and there's no reason he couldn't have dropped in within a few inches of that point.

[Stretch]

It will be a great pity if Tiger is DQed. But, if he chose not to seek a ruling and then did get it wrong, I don't see how there's another outcome? He's already said straight out that he deliberately dropped away from his previous position.

Just imagine if the Chinese kid had missed the cut, too. Not a great day for the Masters ...

[crayputter]

" He could have dropped the ball, keeping the point at which it last crossed the margin of the water between the hole and the spot on which the ball would be dropped."

Any reason why he could not have choosen this option ?

Ray

[Rick Martin]

Originally Posted by crayputter

" He could have dropped the ball, keeping the point at which it last crossed the margin of the water between the hole and the spot on which the ball would be dropped."

Any reason why he could not have choosen this option ?

Ray

Ray -I think TW was quoted that he didn't like that angle and/or distance. I believe he went over to that potential spot to look at the option and didn't like it.

It should be a very interesting morning on the Golf Channel as the talking heads discuss this controversy. I'm almost tempted to drop my morning plans just to watch to see what happens.