2013 Zurich Classic of New Orleans Discussion Thread

[Yukari]

I am not sure if your argument is any stronger, as I have no idea who those guys are that are emphasized below.

Just because he is "better than other irrelevant players" doesn't mean RB's hasn't been an extreme underachiever compared to his potential.

Originally Posted by MEfree

I often hear announcers or someone from the public say a guy should have won MORE but I rarely hear them say who should have won LESS.  Even in my own mind, Corey Pavin may be the only player who I thought should have won less than he actually did.

Barnes tuned pro in 2003- looking at the 2002 US Am and NCAA results, it seems like he has not done as well as guys like Bill Haas, Hunter Mahan, Graeme McDowell, Nick Watney and Ryan Moore

but I think he has had a better career than David Miller, Justin Bray, Justin Smith, Justin Walters, Adam Rubinson, Matt Anderson, Michael Beard, Ramon Bescansa, Shiv Kapur, John Klauk, James Lepp, etc.

[Rick Martin]

So the benchmark now if against players that haven't made it to the PGA tour?

Missed cuts 7 of the last 10 PGA events = disappointment

[jamo]

Missed cuts 7 of the last 10 PGA events = disappointment

I don't think it's incorrect to say that someone who won the U.S. Amateur but has gone winless to date on the PGA Tour (omitting that unofficial CVS Caremark thing that Faxon and Andrade host, which Barnes won in 2010) is probably a bit of a disappointment, but missing 7 of 10 cuts does not a disappointment make. [SPOILER=OT]On another note, it's too bad that CVS Caremark thing isn't held at Pleasant Valley CC like it used to be when it was an official event. I've played that course, it was pretty nice. Massive greens. I think they went bankrupt a while back though.[/SPOILER]

[Rick Martin]

If you took a poll, I'm guessing that missing 70% of the cuts is a major disappointment to most PGA tour pros.

Barnes' win was with JB Holmes in a team-event against women. Not really what I'd call an official win on the tour.

Don't look now, but Barnes fell off the Zurich leaderboard, and page 2 as well.

[jamo]

If you took a poll, I'm guessing that missing 70% of the cuts is a major disappointment to most PGA tour pros. Barnes' win was with JB Holmes in a team-event against women. Not really what I'd call an official win on the tour. Don't look now, but Barnes fell off the Zurich leaderboard, and page 2 as well.

Dude, I'm agreeing with you on the whole that his career has been somewhat of a disappointment for someone who was a U.S. Amateur champ less than a dozen years ago. I even called the CVS Caremark "unofficial," and omitted it. But one stretch of 10 tournament is wayyyyyyy to small of a sample to make a generalization about someone's career. That's all I'm saying.

[Golfingdad]

Originally Posted by Yukari

I am not sure if your argument is any stronger, as I have no idea who those guys are that are emphasized below.

Just because he is "better than other irrelevant players" doesn't mean RB's hasn't been an extreme underachiever compared to his potential.

I think that was kind of his point.  Rick Martin asked "I'd like to compare him to other top collegiate and amateurs ..." and that's exactly what Mefree did.  Out of the top 20 in that one tournament (yes, its one tournament so we're dealing with a small sample size obviously) he isn't anywhere near the top or bottom as far as acheivement goes.  So I guess it all really comes down to what were your expectations?  And if they are so much higher than your expectations for, say, Adam Rubinson or Justin Smith, then why?  Probably because he won the US Amateur, right?  Well, guess what ... that was only one tournament also.

Disappointment?  I don't know.  I've never really considered it, but I guess in the grand scheme of things, I'd say no.  He makes a damn good living on the PGA Tour and from endorsements (Seriously??) and at least so far has a second place finish in the US Open to his credit.

Things that are easier for me to quantify are things like Luke Donald or Lee Westwood never having won a major.  If that continues for the rest of their careers ... that will be considered a disappointment.

Oh, and lets not sleep on James Lepp ... that dudes got game!  Can anybody say 'saucer pass?'

[Rick Martin]

Guan makes the cut T49, 69 second round (-3 total).

[Rick Martin]

Originally Posted by Golfingdad

Quote:

Originally Posted by Yukari

I am not sure if your argument is any stronger, as I have no idea who those guys are that are emphasized below.

Just because he is "better than other irrelevant players" doesn't mean RB's hasn't been an extreme underachiever compared to his potential.

I think that was kind of his point.  Rick Martin asked "I'd like to compare him to other top collegiate and amateurs ..." and that's exactly what Mefree did.

Oh, I see what you did there. You didn't post Kuchar or Mahans' names.  My point was that he's underachieved compared to his contemporaries on the tour.

[Golfingdad]

Originally Posted by Rick Martin

Oh, I see what you did there. You didn't post Kuchar or Mahans' names.  My point was that he's underachieved compared to his contemporaries on the tour.

Well, not exactly.  Mahan is one of the guys listed in the tournament that he posted.  Not Kuchar though.  I would continue further, but I can already see where this is going.  You don't want to discuss or hear other points of view, you just want to be a smart ass (OMG!  I just said ass!) and be stubborn.  Hell (Oops, I did it again ;)) you were trying to disagree with somebody who was agreeing with you a few hours ago.

Good day.

[MEfree]

Originally Posted by Rick Martin

Oh, I see what you did there. You didn't post Kuchar or Mahans' names.  My point was that he's underachieved compared to his contemporaries on the tour.

Yes, compared to the top 50 guys in the world, Barnes has underachieved, but you initially said he was a disappointment compared to other top Ams.

Originally Posted by jamo

Dude, I'm agreeing with you on the whole that his career has been somewhat of a disappointment for someone who was a U.S. Amateur champ less than a dozen years ago. I even called the CVS Caremark "unofficial," and omitted it.

So how many tour wins do these guys have?  I know Ryan Moore won last year and Molinari has done well in Europe, but I don't think that too many of the other recent US Am winners have had more impressive PGA Tour careers than Barnes.

Year	Venue	Winner	Country	Score	Runner-up
2012	Cherry Hills Country Club	Steven Fox	United States	37th hole	Michael Weaver
2011	Erin Hills	Kelly Kraft	United States	2 up	Patrick Cantlay
2010	Chambers Bay	Peter Uihlein	United States	4 & 2	David Chung
2009	Southern Hills Country Club	An Byeong-hun	South Korea	7 & 5	Ben Martin
2008	Pinehurst Resort	Danny Lee	New Zealand	5 & 4	Drew Kittleson
2007	Olympic Club	Colt Knost	United States	2 & 1	Michael Thompson
2006	Hazeltine National Golf Club	Richie Ramsay	Scotland	4 & 2	John Kelly
2005	Merion Golf Club	Edoardo Molinari	Italy	4 & 3	Dillon Dougherty
2004	Winged Foot Golf Club	Ryan Moore	United States	2 up	Luke List
2003	Oakmont Country Club	Nick Flanagan	Australia	37th hole	Casey Wittenberg
2002	Oakland Hills Country Club	Ricky Barnes	United States	2 & 1	Hunter Mahan
2001	East Lake Golf Club	Bubba Dickerson	United States	1 up	Robert Hamilton
2000	Baltusrol Golf Club	Jeff Quinney	United States	39th hole	James Driscoll
1999	Pebble Beach Golf Links	David Gossett	United States	9 & 8	Sung Yoon Kim
1998	Oak Hill Country Club	Hank Kuehne	United States	2 & 1	Tom McKnight

I think the lesson here is that winning the US Am does not guarantee that you will have a Hall of Fame PGA Tour career.

Barnes has done more with his talent than the guys nobody has heard of and less than guys like Mahan, Kuchar, etc.

[Golfingdad]

Originally Posted by MEfree

Yes, compared to the top 50 guys in the world, Barnes has underachieved, but you initially said he was a disappointment compared to other top Ams.

So how many tour wins do these guys have?  I know Ryan Moore won last year and Molinari has done well in Europe, but I don't think that too many of the other recent US Am winners have had more impressive PGA Tour careers than Barnes.

Year

Venue

Winner

Country

Score

Runner-up

2012

Cherry Hills Country Club

Steven Fox

United States

37th hole

Michael Weaver

2011

Erin Hills

Kelly Kraft

United States

2 up

Patrick Cantlay

2010

Chambers Bay

Peter Uihlein

United States

4 & 2

David Chung

2009

Southern Hills Country Club

An Byeong-hun

South Korea

7 & 5

Ben Martin

2008

Pinehurst Resort

Danny Lee

New Zealand

5 & 4

Drew Kittleson

2007

Olympic Club

Colt Knost

United States

2 & 1

Michael Thompson

2006

Hazeltine National Golf Club

Richie Ramsay

Scotland

4 & 2

John Kelly

2005

Merion Golf Club

Edoardo Molinari

Italy

4 & 3

Dillon Dougherty

2004

Winged Foot Golf Club

Ryan Moore

United States

2 up

Luke List

2003

Oakmont Country Club

Nick Flanagan

Australia

37th hole

Casey Wittenberg

2002

Oakland Hills Country Club

Ricky Barnes

United States

2 & 1

Hunter Mahan

2001

East Lake Golf Club

Bubba Dickerson

United States

1 up

Robert Hamilton

2000

Baltusrol Golf Club

Jeff Quinney

United States

39th hole

James Driscoll

1999

Pebble Beach Golf Links

David Gossett

United States

9 & 8

Sung Yoon Kim

1998

Oak Hill Country Club

Hank Kuehne

United States

2 & 1

Tom McKnight

I think the lesson here is that winning the US Am does not guarantee that you will have a Hall of Fame PGA Tour career.

Barnes has done more with his talent than the guys nobody has heard of and less than guys like Mahan, Kuchar, etc.

I'm with you Mefree.  This is why I said it's all about expectations.  For some reason, some people have higher expectations for him than a lot of the other guys on your list.  I'm guessing it's because he's done just well enough to keep his name out there.  That reminds people that he's won the US Am, then they go "wait a minute ... why hasn't he done better?" and call him an underacheiver.  Had he disappeared immediately afterwards, like several of the names on that list, nobody would be calling him an underacheiver.  Kind of ironic if you think about it.  Had he acheived less to this point, people would have not considered him an underacheiver.  Say what????  Based on all of the evidence provided, I'd say he has actually OVERacheived. ;)

Disclaimer:  Virtually all of my knowledge (and interest) of Ricky Barnes has developed in the last couple of hours per this conversation.  That's it.

[Rick Martin]

When Barnes came out on tour, much was expected of him - and he's disappointed.  Wins = Zero.  Wouldn't surprise me if Guan beats him this weekend.

Now at age 32 and well into the prime of his career, Ricky better find the solutions sooner rather than later.

http://bleacherreport.com/articles/1550899-most-impressive-and-disappointing-starts-to-the-2013-pga-season/page/8

[Ernest Jones]

Well, not exactly.  Mahan is one of the guys listed in the tournament that he posted.  Not Kuchar though.  I would continue further, but I can already see where this is going.  You don't want to discuss or hear other points of view, you just want to be a smart ass (OMG!  I just said ass!) and be stubborn.  Hell (Oops, I did it again ;)) you were trying to disagree with somebody who was agreeing with you a few hours ago. Good day.

That's funny. Lol. And Bleacher Report??? Seriously? Total rag.

[Harmonious]

Originally Posted by Rick Martin

When Barnes came out on tour, much was expected of him - and he's disappointed.  Wins = Zero.  Wouldn't surprise me if Guan beats him this weekend.

Of the list of US Am winners and runners-up that MEFree posted in post #28, how many have made more money on Tour than Barnes?  Not many, I'd wager.

[MEfree]

Originally Posted by Harmonious

Of the list of US Am winners and runners-up that MEFree posted in post #28, how many have made more money on Tour than Barnes?  Not many, I'd wager.

Very true...

Rick Martin is right that expectations were high of Barnes, but the point that you, GolfingDad and I are making is that expectations are high for a lot of guys and a lot of guys have talent pretty similar to Barnes- a few live up to those expectations and many fail so miserably that we forget about them while a guy like Barnes falls somewhere in the middle and gets criticized for being a disappointment.

FWIW, one reason expectations were high for Barnes is because he was paired with and beat Tiger by 7 in the opening round of the 2003 Masters, but one round does not a PGA Tour career make and Woods ended up beating Barnes for the tourny (and many rounds since then).  I was never a huge fan of Barnes swing- had he not gotten the extra Masters publicity, expectations for him would have been no higher than for Kuenhe, Gossett, Quinney, Dickerson, etc

[14ledo81]

Disclaimer:  Virtually all of my knowledge (and interest) of Ricky Barnes has developed in the last couple of hours per this conversation.  That's it.

Not buying it. I can tell you are really taking this conversation to heart. Everyone knows your secret man crush now.:-P

[Golfingdad]

Originally Posted by 14ledo81

Not buying it. I can tell you are really taking this conversation to heart. Everyone knows your secret man crush now.

LOL!  You know what it is? ... It's the painter's cap that does it for me!  Not sure if it's actually a painters hat though ... the more I think about it, it reminds me of the baseball caps the guys wore in those 100 year old baseball cards.  Honus Wagner, Cap Anson, those guys.

[Ernest Jones]

I'm going to buy GD a Ricky Barnes lunch box.