Relief From Relief ?

[madolive3]

Friend hit a tee shot out of bounds on a hill, the ball rolled down the hill and stopped on the inbounds side of the fence, but up against the fence. I told him he gets relief from the fence. He drops and the ball rolls down the hill and lands on the cart path. There was no way he could drop on the hill and prevent that ball from landing on the path. I told him that I didn't know the rule and that he should play off the cart path.

He could've redropped all day and that ball would've ended up on that path every time.

[Golfingdad]

You were wrong the first time. ;). You don't get relief from stakes and fences that define out of bounds.

[Fourputt]

First of all,  the status of the fence must be determined.  If the fence was what defined out of bounds, then he shouldn't have gotten relief.  Fences or walls defining out of bounds are not obstructions.  In that case, any relief would be under Rule 28, Ball unplayable, and would incur a penalty stroke.

If the fence is not the margin defining out of bounds, then he would be entitled to relief without penalty under Rule 24.  He must locate the nearest point of complete relief for lie, stance, and area of intended swing  from the obstruction.  He is allowed one clublength from that point, no nearer to the hole, for his drop area.  If the ball, after dropping, rolls more than 2 clublengths or rolls closer to the hole than the nearest point of relief, or rolls back into a condition of interference with the same obstruction, then it must be redropped.  If it does the same after the second drop, the ball must be placed where it first hit the ground.

If the ball doesn't roll more than 2 clublengths, and doesn't roll nearer to the hole, then it is in play, and if there is interference with another obstruction, then he would be allowed to take relief under Rule 24 for that second condition.

[madolive3]

Thank you both. lesson learned.

[rogolf]

Originally Posted by Fourputt

First of all,  the status of the fence must be determined.  If the fence was what defined out of bounds, then he shouldn't have gotten relief.  Fences or walls defining out of bounds are not obstructions.  In that case, any relief would be under Rule 28, Ball unplayable, and would incur a penalty stroke.

If the fence is not the margin defining out of bounds, then he would be entitled to relief without penalty under Rule 24.  He must locate the nearest point of complete relief for lie, stance, and area of intended swing  from the obstruction.  He is allowed one clublength from that point, no nearer to the hole, for his drop area.  If the ball, after dropping, rolls more than 2 clublengths or rolls closer to the hole than the nearest point of relief, or rolls back into a condition of interference with the same obstruction, then it must be redropped.  If it does the same after the second drop, the ball must be placed where it first hit the ground.

If the ball doesn't roll more than 2 clublengths, and doesn't roll nearer to the hole, then it is in play, and if there is interference with another obstruction, then he would be allowed to take relief under Rule 24 for that second condition.

Just clarifying - he would only get relief from the fence as an obstruction if the fence was on the golf course, ie, not out of bounds.

[Stretch]

Quick add-on question: player's ball is in a hazard (small drainage ditch) and his swing is affected by an obstruction outside the hazard (staked tree). There is no area within the hazard and not closer to the hole that offers relief -- what does he do?

[Mordan]

Originally Posted by Stretch

Quick add-on question: player's ball is in a hazard (small drainage ditch) and his swing is affected by an obstruction outside the hazard (staked tree). There is no area within the hazard and not closer to the hole that offers relief -- what does he do?

You don't get relief from an obstruction when your ball is in a hazard.

Exception to rule 24-2:

Note 1: If a ball is in a water hazard (including a lateral water hazard ), the player may not take relief from interference by an immovable obstruction . The player must play the ball as it lies or proceed under Rule 26-1 .

[Stretch]

Thanks, that's what I thought. (And told my mate Roy, who was in the ditch. He grumbled all the rest of the way round. )

[rogolf]

Originally Posted by Mordan

You don't get relief from an obstruction when your ball is in a hazard.

Exception to rule 24-2:

Note 1: If a ball is in a water hazard (including a lateral water hazard), the player may not take relief from interference by an immovable obstruction. The player must play the ball as it lies or proceed under Rule 26-1.

However, a staked tree is not an obstruction.  If there is a local Rule for staked trees, it tells us to take relief as if it was an obstruction, but does not define the staked tree as an obstruction.

[Stretch]

Originally Posted by rogolf

However, a staked tree is not an obstruction.  If there is a local Rule for staked trees, it tells us to take relief as if it was an obstruction, but does not define the staked tree as an obstruction.

Are you implying that that changes the ruling?

[Fourputt]

Originally Posted by Stretch

Quote:

Originally Posted by rogolf

However, a staked tree is not an obstruction.  If there is a local Rule for staked trees, it tells us to take relief as if it was an obstruction, but does not define the staked tree as an obstruction.

Are you implying that that changes the ruling?

Not sure why he threw that in.  Normally staked trees are still trees, and only the stakes and guy wires are obstructions, and they are usually movable obstructions.  You would proceed under Rule 24-1 - pull the stake, make your shot, then replace the stake.  For preservation of the course and protection of the tree, the committee may declare the stakes to be immovable obstructions.  In that case, relief is taken under Rule 24-2

[Rulesman]

Young trees requiring protection are not always staked. The may simply be marked with a tie or paint. If they are staked, the stake would almost certainly fastened to the tree, making the stake an IO.

Relief for a YTRP would normally be available under 24-2 but 24-2 does not apply when the ball is in a WH.

[rogolf]

Originally Posted by Rulesman

Young trees requiring protection are not always staked. The may simply be marked with a tie or paint. If they are staked, the stake would almost certainly fastened to the tree, making the stake an IO.

Relief for a YTRP would normally be available under 24-2 but 24-2 does not apply when the ball is in a WH.

Young trees requiring protection are not immovable obstructions.  If the course wants to protect them, they must implement a local Rule (recommended local Rule is on page 126 of the Rule book).  If the recommended local Rule is in effect, it provides relief for interference by a young tree so marked even when the ball is in a water hazard.

As noted above, relief is taken according to the procedures in Rule 24-2, but this does not change the tree into an immovable obstruction.

No local Rule?  Relief from the stake/wires only as immovable obstructions (as others have said).

[Rulesman]

Originally Posted by rogolf

If the recommended local Rule is in effect, it provides relief for interference by a young tree so marked even when the ball is in a water hazard.

Oops.

Of course.

[Stretch]

Interesting (and enlightening!) Here is the relevant local rule from the course concerned:

PROTECTION OF THE COURSE

Only flower beds on the course marked with green stakes are ground under repair from which play is prohibited. If a player’s ball lies in these areas, or if they interfere with the player’s stance or swing, the player MUST take relief under Rule 25-1.

Trees that are required to be protected from damage are identified by white stakes. If a tree so marked interferes with a player’s stance or the area of intended swing, the ball MUST be lifted & dropped without penalty as provided in Rule 24-2.

All CANDELABRA plants, irrespective of where they are – the player MUST take relief in accordance with Rule 25-1.

I can't remember if the tree was specifically identified by a white stake, or simply supported by ordinary ones, so am still not sure if we proceeded correctly. But thank you very much for the clarification.

[tomvk77]

first off all you don't get relieve from an out off bounce fence. Second after 3 drops he should have placed the ball on the place his last drop hit the ground.

[Rulesman]

Originally Posted by tomvk77

Second after 3 drops he should have placed the ball on the place his last drop hit the ground.

Providing the ball hasn't rolled more than 2 club lengths from the spot it hit the ground you don't get a redrop, whether it finished on a path or not.

[tomvk77]

Originally Posted by Rulesman

Providing the ball hasn't rolled more than 2 club lengths from the spot it hit the ground you don't get a redrop, whether it finished on a path or not.

yes i know. I was assuming this had happened