"Hey! While we're young!" - USGA Pace of Play

[Spyder]

Originally Posted by dave67az

Here here!

Something tells me if we had the foresight to see what problem we were creating when we followed the "experts" advice and taught our kids to think for themselves and not to always follow the "rules" that everyone else sets for them, maybe we would have raised them differently.  It's one thing to teach your kids to be independent and not to just follow what the crowd is doing.  Now we've got a generation that thinks they can pick and choose which rules they follow, including guidelines for pace of play.

I really, really do not want to get into an off-topic debate over generation gaps or stereotypes per generation. However, I can assure you that this generation also has many intelligent and independent youths who can decipher right from wrong and are equipped with common sense. Please, let's not forget that the acid-dropping generation prior to ours is what got us into a whole economical mess to begin with, while it is the younger generation and their future children that will be living in the consequential mess.

On the topic of golf though - Again, you cannot fix stupid, period. This has nothing to do with parenting or generations/generalizations of golfers. This is purely a common sense issue and those who have no common sense may never have that awakening moment when they realize that they are a part/cause of an issue that is affecting those around them. Another issue is that another small percentage of those who DO wake up and realize they are slow golfers will probably not try to do anything to fix it, but yet they will continue at their pace and maybe let you play through after 3-5 holes of suffering.

In the end, there's no one solution that will satisfy the masses. You either strictly enforce a Pace-of-Play structure on the course which starts with changes implemented from management down, or you loosely remind golfers that they should be aware of their pace. There's no grey area or perfect solution here.

[Fourputt]

Originally Posted by Spyder

On the topic of golf though - Again, you cannot fix stupid, period. This has nothing to do with parenting or generations/generalizations of golfers. This is purely a common sense issue and those who have no common sense may never have that awakening moment when they realize that they are a part/cause of an issue that is affecting those around them. Another issue is that another small percentage of those who DO wake up and realize they are slow golfers will probably not try to do anything to fix it, but yet they will continue at their pace and maybe let you play through after 3-5 holes of suffering.

In the end, there's no one solution that will satisfy the masses. You either strictly enforce a Pace-of-Play structure on the course which starts with changes implemented from management down, or you loosely remind golfers that they should be aware of their pace. There's no grey area or perfect solution here.

I'm not about to address your nonsense about some mythical "acid dropping generation", but I will address your comment about "stupid".  The problem is rarely stupidity, it's ignorance.  How many times does it have to be said? Most slow players don't know that they are slow. There really are very few stupid people who play golf.  Entitled?  Yes.  Clueless?  Yes.  Stupid?  Not so much.  Point out to them what they are doing wrong and how to fix it so that the ranger will get off their ass and most will take it to heart.

I said it already somewhere else, but I think that the USGA can do one more big thing to help improve pace of play across the board, and that is to remove the honor system from stroke play.  So many players, especially beginners, come onto the course having heard just one or two rules in their lives, and one of those is that the player who is away goes first, and they have heard it as being the number one rule of golf, set in stone.  I can't tell you how many times I've been paired up with inexperienced players and I find them constantly standing around waiting to find out who is away, or who has the honor on the tee.  It may not cure all pace of play ills, but it sure wouldn't hurt.

I feel that honor should be reserved for match play only, and it should be widely advertised that it is irrelevant in stroke play.  Just delete that rule from the book for stroke play.

When I'm paired with strangers on the first tee, I tell them that I play ready golf, so not to be offended if I play when I'm not away.

[bplewis24]

Originally Posted by Slice of Life

I was by myself and joined up with a 4some. We finished 18 in 4 hours.

Do you have the exact coordinates of this course location?

[Lash]

Originally Posted by Fourputt

I said it already somewhere else, but I think that the USGA can do one more big thing to help improve pace of play across the board, and that is to remove the honor system from stroke play.  So many players, especially beginners, come onto the course having heard just one or two rules in their lives, and one of those is that the player who is away goes first, and they have heard it as being the number one rule of golf, set in stone.  I can't tell you how many times I've been paired up with inexperienced players and I find them constantly standing around waiting to find out who is away, or who has the honor on the tee.  It may not cure all pace of play ills, but it sure wouldn't hurt.

I feel that honor should be reserved for match play only, and it should be widely advertised that it is irrelevant in stroke play.  Just delete that rule from the book for stroke play.

When I'm paired with strangers on the first tee, I tell them that I play ready golf, so not to be offended if I play when I'm not away.

That's a great point. I think most people hear "ready golf" and think it means that once it is their turn they are to be ready and hit their ball. You can play a lot faster, especially if you are walking separately, if whoever gets to their ball first will hit first.

When my dad and I were both shooting 120+ regularly, that was the main way we would stay on pace ahead of the groups behind us who hit the ball 1/3 of the time we did. We felt like we were breaking a cardinal rule of golf but figured it was ok if we were playing alone. Any time one of us got to the ball, even on the green, we would hit as long as we weren't going to mess someone else up.

[Spyder]

Originally Posted by Fourputt

I'm not about to address your nonsense about some mythical "acid dropping generation", but I will address your comment about "stupid".  The problem is rarely stupidity, it's ignorance.  How many times does it have to be said?  Most slow players don't know that they are slow.  There really are very few stupid people who play golf.  Entitled?  Yes.  Clueless?  Yes.  Stupid?  Not so much.  Point out to them what they are doing wrong and how to fix it so that the ranger will get off their ass and most will take it to heart.

I said it already somewhere else, but I think that the USGA can do one more big thing to help improve pace of play across the board, and that is to remove the honor system from stroke play.  So many players, especially beginners, come onto the course having heard just one or two rules in their lives, and one of those is that the player who is away goes first, and they have heard it as being the number one rule of golf, set in stone.  I can't tell you how many times I've been paired up with inexperienced players and I find them constantly standing around waiting to find out who is away, or who has the honor on the tee.  It may not cure all pace of play ills, but it sure wouldn't hurt.

I feel that honor should be reserved for match play only, and it should be widely advertised that it is irrelevant in stroke play.  Just delete that rule from the book for stroke play.

When I'm paired with strangers on the first tee, I tell them that I play ready golf, so not to be offended if I play when I'm not away.

Mythical? lol Come on, Fourputt...

Anyways, you have to keep in mind that the level of competence per player will vary by the type of course that you are playing. You are absolutely going to find more individuals who do display a specific level of stupidity at courses with lower rates. Run of the mill dog-tracks and munis by far outnumber the courses with $60-80 rates, which have higher standards and requirements out of their customers. Again, this is not a stereotype or bash on a specific "class" of people. If you are uneducated, you are what....? I fill in the blank with "stupid". Call it Golf Stupid... but it's still a type of stupid. The cheaper courses do generally attract more individuals that do not know much about the game of golf.

I have personally witnessed and dealt with a high number of idiots this year who blatantly said they did not give a F about their pace of play and will go elsewhere. You call it entitlement, I call it stupid. The behavioral characteristic of entitlement can easily be classified as stupid, so you're agreeing by disagreeing and simply classifying the dumb as being "unaware".

You can honestly tell me that you rarely witness carelessness on the golf course? People mentioned ball hawkers slowing up their pace of play, the individuals in jorts and cut-offs getting Happy Gilmore drunk and acting idiotic, fivesomes and other ridiculous things as well. You're going to pick straws here and tell me it's not necessary to call that behavior stupid? I commend you with your patience in that case, but again.. and not to be cornball, but Ron White said it best.

I won't go as far as to say most slow players don't know that they are slow either. I think that the number is more close to a 50/50 split between those that do know and those that don't know. Neither of us can prove the other wrong with a factual poll though.

PS: Please read my post carefully because I am not the Country Club type. I am just being realistic about golf here and the type of golfers that generally play specific courses with specific rates. You will find idiots at all courses that slow play down, but you're much less likely to see people playing "stupid golf" at courses with higher rates. Everyone has different feelings, opinions, and experiences to back their sentiments as well.

[Dave2512]

I disagree that green fees are a determining factor in what type of golfer you will encounter on the course. Courses that are well managed play well and those that aren't don't regardless of the fees. As much as I despise social media reviews sites I've started leaving honest reviews about my experiences good or bad. I've had course management send me messages after leaving a negative review concerning everything from POP to grounds conditions. If they're smart they'll take it to heart and make adjustments where necessary. People actually read that stuff. I know, it's affected my own business after I received bogus negative reviews and it was pointed out to me by potential clients.

[Fourputt]

Originally Posted by Spyder

Quote:

Originally Posted by Fourputt

I'm not about to address your nonsense about some mythical "acid dropping generation", but I will address your comment about "stupid".  The problem is rarely stupidity, it's ignorance.  How many times does it have to be said?  Most slow players don't know that they are slow.  There really are very few stupid people who play golf.  Entitled?  Yes.  Clueless?  Yes.  Stupid?  Not so much.  Point out to them what they are doing wrong and how to fix it so that the ranger will get off their ass and most will take it to heart.

I said it already somewhere else, but I think that the USGA can do one more big thing to help improve pace of play across the board, and that is to remove the honor system from stroke play.  So many players, especially beginners, come onto the course having heard just one or two rules in their lives, and one of those is that the player who is away goes first, and they have heard it as being the number one rule of golf, set in stone.  I can't tell you how many times I've been paired up with inexperienced players and I find them constantly standing around waiting to find out who is away, or who has the honor on the tee.  It may not cure all pace of play ills, but it sure wouldn't hurt.

I feel that honor should be reserved for match play only, and it should be widely advertised that it is irrelevant in stroke play.  Just delete that rule from the book for stroke play.

When I'm paired with strangers on the first tee, I tell them that I play ready golf, so not to be offended if I play when I'm not away.

Mythical? lol Come on, Fourputt...

Anyways, you have to keep in mind that the level of competence per player will vary by the type of course that you are playing. You are absolutely going to find more individuals who do display a specific level of stupidity at courses with lower rates. Run of the mill dog-tracks and munis by far outnumber the courses with $60-80 rates, which have higher standards and requirements out of their customers. Again, this is not a stereotype or bash on a specific "class" of people. If you are uneducated, you are what....? I fill in the blank with "stupid". Call it Golf Stupid... but it's still a type of stupid. The cheaper courses do generally attract more individuals that do not know much about the game of golf.

I have personally witnessed and dealt with a high number of idiots this year who blatantly said they did not give a F about their pace of play and will go elsewhere. You call it entitlement, I call it stupid. The behavioral characteristic of entitlement can easily be classified as stupid, so you're agreeing by disagreeing and simply classifying the dumb as being "unaware".

You can honestly tell me that you rarely witness carelessness on the golf course? People mentioned ball hawkers slowing up their pace of play, the individuals in jorts and cut-offs getting Happy Gilmore drunk and acting idiotic, fivesomes and other ridiculous things as well. You're going to pick straws here and tell me it's not necessary to call that behavior stupid? I commend you with your patience in that case, but again.. and not to be cornball, but Ron White said it best.

I won't go as far as to say most slow players don't know that they are slow either. I think that the number is more close to a 50/50 split between those that do know and those that don't know. Neither of us can prove the other wrong with a factual poll though.

PS: Please read my post carefully because I am not the Country Club type. I am just being realistic about golf here and the type of golfers that generally play specific courses with specific rates. You will find idiots at all courses that slow play down, but you're much less likely to see people playing "stupid golf" at courses with higher rates. Everyone has different feelings, opinions, and experiences to back their sentiments as well.

None of what you describe is "stupid".  Careless, ignorant, disrespectful, but not stupid.  They have never had to learn how to play correctly and with a good pace, so they never even bothered to think about it.  Courses have to press the issue to get people thinking about it.  It's the old Alfred E. Newman quote "What, me worry?"  Nobody has ever stressed to them that they should worry, so they don't.

[iHack]

Spyder is that picture you? Clubs are righty, glove on right hand. ?

[bplewis24]

Originally Posted by iHack

Spyder is that picture you? Clubs are righty, glove on right hand. ?

That's a beer glove.

[TJBam]

Young guys who think they are better than they really are are the root of slow play, along with ladies of course.

OB balls are also the root of slow play.  This results from overswinging from the tips (testosterone tees) and putting balls OB 10 yards in front of the ladies' markers.  Hint: if you hit OB on a par 4 off the tee and find yourself looking for your ball in the woods 230+ yds from the green, MOVE IT ON UP AND DON'T BE ASHAMED!!

[Spyder]

Originally Posted by TJBam

Young guys who think they are better than they really are are the root of slow play, along with ladies of course.

OB balls are also the root of slow play.  This results from overswinging from the tips (testosterone tees) and putting balls OB 10 yards in front of the ladies' markers.  Hint: if you hit OB on a par 4 off the tee and find yourself looking for your ball in the woods 230+ yds from the green, MOVE IT ON UP AND DON'T BE ASHAMED!!

Damn, you went there didn't you? LOL.

On a side note, I had my ass kicked a few times on the course by ladies. In fact, one is 19 and has a scholarship to tOSU for golf. My joke to this day with my buddies is that it doesn't count because I don't remember anything after the 19th hole. Cleansed defeat with a helping hand from my buddies Jack and Jose!

[Slice of Life]

Originally Posted by bplewis24

Do you have the exact coordinates of this course location?

Ha.

Royal Crest near Cleveland, OH. Not the nicest course, but cheap, and if you go early enough or late enough, you can get around quick.

[TJBam]

Originally Posted by Spyder

Damn, you went there didn't you? LOL.

On a side note, I had my ass kicked a few times on the course by ladies. In fact, one is 19 and has a scholarship to tOSU for golf. My joke to this day with my buddies is that it doesn't count because I don't remember anything after the 19th hole. Cleansed defeat with a helping hand from my buddies Jack and Jose!

Yes I did go there.

I have played with an 8 handicapper who was supposedly awesome in high school and was playing in college.  Lots of duffs from her but it didn't really matter because even if she topped a ball she gets half way to the hole from her daunting 260yd par 4 teebox.

[Fourputt]

Originally Posted by TJBam

Young guys who think they are better than they really are are the root of slow play, along with ladies of course.

OB balls are also the root of slow play.  This results from overswinging from the tips (testosterone tees) and putting balls OB 10 yards in front of the ladies' markers.  Hint: if you hit OB on a par 4 off the tee and find yourself looking for your ball in the woods 230+ yds from the green, MOVE IT ON UP AND DON'T BE ASHAMED!!

Yup.  And I've hit from the middle tees and barely gotten past the reds o occasion.  Am I supposed to move up to the red tees just because I sometimes miss with my driver?

Always has to be that one who thinks he has found the answer to slow play in demographics.  It doesn't work that way, but telling him so never convinces him either.  I know you are wrong because I collected the data in my job for 5 years, and I've said over and over and over that you can't pin it down to a specific age group, gender, or type of player, but there always have to be guys like you who get stuck behind a certain type of slow group once or twice, so now you have the answer to all of our problems.  Sorry to pop your bubble but it doesn't work that way.

Playing the correct tees for one's game is a laudable solution for all players.  Most courses would be ahead of the game if they simply closed their back tees except for tournament play.  Simply don't give casual players that option.  But that is still just a small piece of the solution.  Those women you gripe about are probably slow because they simply aren't aware that they have a problem and nobody has bothered to counsel them on ways to improve, which is also true of at least 90% of the slow players I've seen in my job and when playing .  I've played with any number of women, good golfers and poor golfers and everything in between, and most are no slower than any other players.  One senior lady who I play with on a regular basis is as fast as any player I've ever played with.  Another one hits the ball farther than I do and carries a +2 handicap from the middle tees, scratch from the back tees on our home course.  She qualified for the US Women's Amateur 4 years ago.  We've toured the course in under 3 hours playing as a twosome.

One of our women's leagues had an issue with pace of play a few years ago, they were told by the pro that they had to get better or the league would be dropped.  The next season they were on probation, but they had fixed the problem.  They did some instruction over the winter, they created some of the early season pairings mixing known slow players in with faster players, and the combination of being aware of the problem and peer pressure turned them around.  They are now one of the faster leagues.  When they bring in a new member, she is paired with someone who is charged with teaching her the processes for keeping pace.

Just bitching about it doesn't solve the problem.  I don't mind the opportunity to play with some of those slow players, because I take it as a chance to educate them.  I don't harp about the rules, but I will harp about pace of play.  I will tell them from the start that I play ready golf and I expect them to do the same.  When we inevitably fall behind, I will then teach them how to play so that we catch up and keep up.  If they resist that, I won't hesitate to call in the ranger for additional assistance.   I simply won't stand around bitching about slow play when I feel that there is something I can do about it.

[Dave2512]

Originally Posted by Fourputt

Playing the correct tees for one's game is a laudable solution for all players.  Most courses would be ahead of the game if they simply closed their back tees except for tournament play.  Simply don't give casual players that option.

I've mentioned it before but it's worth repeating, this is pretty common here. One course requires permission from the pro shop to play the back tees. I've never asked but I assume they look up your handicap. Another one simply doesn't put any markers out on the back boxes, in fact they don't put out the back two markers and another asks what your index is and recommends a tee when they take your money. The championship tees there are 7700 yds. But I still see the "big" swingers back there.

Colorado National has a 626 yd par 5 and the back tees are 196 yds behind the ladies tee and between is reedy wetland. A 250 yd drive from back there wouldn't even get you in the fairway. The guys I see playing back there don't hit a 250 yd drive all day. Drives me nuts. Usually it's two balls into the reeds before moving up to a different tee and if they're lucky they hit the layup area. The second shot requires carrying a lateral and a separation in the fairway where the cart path crosses and anything but a big hit is usually two layups but again they go for it and another ball is lost. It's ESC before they get to the 150 and they keep whaling at it. But this course is one that tracks carts with GPS. Fall out of position and they let you know. Funny to see people running to balls trying to catch up.

[Golfingdad]

Originally Posted by Fourputt

Playing the correct tees for one's game is a laudable solution for all players.  Most courses would be ahead of the game if they simply closed their back tees except for tournament play.

Maybe this is more common on the "old school" courses that offer only the traditional 3 sets of tees (ladies, mens, championship)?  Certainly, at courses that only have red, white, blue, I see a lot of people that play from blues that probably would be better served on the whites.  However, at the newer courses around here (and I think most places) where they offer 4 and 5 sets of tees, it seems like it's super rare to see people playing at the tips.  My "home" courses tips are at 6,900 and change, which is fairly modest nowadays, I believe, and I've only ever seen one person play back there.  One day if I'm ever playing alone, I'll give it a shot, but I'm happy, as are most I've ever seen, at the 6500 blue tees.  Do some of those guys belong on the whites?  Certainly.  But I just don't see the "guys playing the wrong tees" as being a really big factor causing slow play around here.

Originally Posted by Dave2512

Colorado National has a 626 yd par 5 and the back tees are 196 yds behind the ladies tee and between is reedy wetland. A 250 yd drive from back there wouldn't even get you in the fairway. The guys I see playing back there don't hit a 250 yd drive all day. Drives me nuts. Usually it's two balls into the reeds before moving up to a different tee and if they're lucky they hit the layup area. The second shot requires carrying a lateral and a separation in the fairway where the cart path crosses and anything but a big hit is usually two layups but again they go for it and another ball is lost. It's ESC before they get to the 150 and they keep whaling at it. But this course is one that tracks carts with GPS. Fall out of position and they let you know. Funny to see people running to balls trying to catch up.

Never played there but curiosity got the best of me, because your claim seemed doubtful, so I looked it up.  Looks like the fairway starts at the red tees, and all you need is a 200 yard drive to reach the fairway.

[dave67az]

Originally Posted by TJBam

Young guys who think they are better than they really are are the root of slow play, along with ladies of course.

OB balls are also the root of slow play.  This results from overswinging from the tips (testosterone tees) and putting balls OB 10 yards in front of the ladies' markers.  Hint: if you hit OB on a par 4 off the tee and find yourself looking for your ball in the woods 230+ yds from the green, MOVE IT ON UP AND DON'T BE ASHAMED!!

I agree that OB balls are a big part of slow play, from what I've seen.  Looking for lost balls, coupled with bad shot after bad shot (we all have holes like that every now and then).  The main difference between someone who is educated about the process (and most golfers are NOT) is that the educated golfer will realize he's behind, realize he's holding up the group behind him, pick up the ball, and move forward.  If you were right behind a group when you started the hole, but you lose track of time because of duffed shots, a lost ball, or whatever, and now you can't even see that group, it's time to pick up and advance.  Get back in position.  It may mean skipping your putts on the green.  It may mean skipping your putts AND your tee shots and just dropping in the next fairway.  But if you get that far behind, catch back up.  And I'm betting that gap that you put between yourself and the group behind you won't be there for long.  Not if everyone else is playing on pace like they're supposed to.

I don't necessarily buy the "tee it forward" as a solution, though.  I've lost balls on long par-3s.  Teeing it forward may make it tougher for the average GOOD golfer to lose fewer balls, but it does little for the duffer (and I'm betting most of the slow players are NOT consistent players, which is why they're slow in the first place).

[Golfingdad]

Originally Posted by dave67az

I agree that OB balls are a big part of slow play, from what I've seen.  Looking for lost balls, coupled with bad shot after bad shot (we all have holes like that every now and then).  The main difference between someone who is educated about the process (and most golfers are NOT) is that the educated golfer will realize he's behind, realize he's holding up the group behind him, pick up the ball, and move forward.  If you were right behind a group when you started the hole, but you lose track of time because of duffed shots, a lost ball, or whatever, and now you can't even see that group, it's time to pick up and advance.  Get back in position.  It may mean skipping your putts on the green.  It may mean skipping your putts AND your tee shots and just dropping in the next fairway.  But if you get that far behind, catch back up.  And I'm betting that gap that you put between yourself and the group behind you won't be there for long.  Not if everyone else is playing on pace like they're supposed to.

I don't necessarily buy the "tee it forward" as a solution, though.  I've lost balls on long par-3s.  Teeing it forward may make it tougher for the average GOOD golfer to lose fewer balls, but it does little for the duffer (and I'm betting most of the slow players are NOT consistent players, which is why they're slow in the first place).

Right.  Hitting balls 40 yards left and right into OB territory is going to happen no matter which tee you are playing from.  And I agree that it's not about hitting it OB or near, but about being educated and aware.  I hit OB balls all of the time but I don't look for my ball for 5 minutes, I look for my ball for as long as the group in from of me is in range.  If I get to about where my ball should be and the group in front is walking off the green, I'll look for 45-ish seconds at most.  If they are taking their time putting, I'll look longer.  I also don't lolligag at the tee.  If I hit first, for example, I will, as surreptiously as possible, get ready right away, such that by the time the last guy in our group has hit I'm already walking down the fairway.

People who don't belong on the back tees and play slow are playing slow because they are slow players, not because they are fast players playing the wrong tees.  99% of the time, those golfers are still going to play just as slow from further up.

Tee it forward, I believe, is a solution for people to play better and have more fun, but not a solution to slow play.