lack of etiquette....

[jemiller16]

I'm only 28, but I know what you guys mean. I try really hard to follow golf etiquette in every way possible, but it seems like people my age and younger don't care. I have a "friend" (I put that in quotes because we only see each other on the course) who will walk in other people's lines on the green, never replace his divots, and won't fix his marks on the green. A very annoying thing he does is during 90 degree or cart path only days, he'll still drive on the fairway like normal. It was a 90 degree only day with a pretty wet course and on the first tee he drives straight up the middle of the fairway. I thought sure we'd hear it from someone. When I drive on those days, every other hole is, "why don't you just drive on the fairway?" I won't do it.

He also bitches more than anyone I know about slow play. I don't like slow play either, but when you can see multiple groups ahead of you, all waiting on the group in front of them, there's nothing you can do. He'll say, "I don't give a ****, I'm going to hit into them next hole."

Come to think about it, I'm not sure why I play with him.

[gosly]

All I play is municipal courses (poor college kid) and I've never really had any major issues.  I mean you're always going to have people out there who are taking it less seriously than you are, or they don't understand certain etiquette like fixing ball marks or raking the sand.  It only really bothers me when it's clearly deliberate or people start getting intoxicated and stop giving a care about the course.

[Meltdwhiskey]

I'd have to agree with those that are saying this is a parenting issue and not a muni/private issue.  I never had kids, so the last parenting of a child experience I had was when I was a child - in the 70s/80s.  I know times have changed and I know some would say that since I am not a parent - that I have no room to talk.  But I see plenty of the described behavior off of the golf course.

I've had occasions where my friends' kid(s) were abusing some of my stuff and the parent(s) just let it go totally. Or if they do say something, they say it very lightly and the child continues to do it as if nothing was said at all.  Maybe I don't have room to talk, but I don't at all see how it is cool to let kids tear stuff up weather it is a golf green or my new skis.  I don't understand why they don't say something.  Anyone have feedback on this? As a non-parent it fascinates me.

[AmazingWhacker]

Originally Posted by Meltdwhiskey

I'd have to agree with those that are saying this is a parenting issue and not a muni/private issue.  I never had kids, so the last parenting of a child experience I had was when I was a child - in the 70s/80s.  I know times have changed and I know some would say that since I am not a parent - that I have no room to talk.  But I see plenty of the described behavior off of the golf course.

I've had occasions where my friends' kid(s) were abusing some of my stuff and the parent(s) just let it go totally. Or if they do say something, they say it very lightly and the child continues to do it as if nothing was said at all.  Maybe I don't have room to talk, but I don't at all see how it is cool to let kids tear stuff up weather it is a golf green or my new skis.  I don't understand why they don't say something.  Anyone have feedback on this? As a non-parent it fascinates me.

Speaking only for myself, the only time my child gets out of line in public or damages other peoples stuff is when I don't see it happen.  Kids are quick . .one minute they're playing happily and the next they are tearing stuff up.  I have some "friends" who do like you say . .say something lightly but don't physically intervene or otherwise make sure the behaviour stops.  They say they don't want to "break his spirit".   I call them "the stupid hippies" when it's just me and my wife, lol . .and I hate going anywhere with them in public.

I figure it's my job to correct destructive or rude behavior or else my daughter will grow up thinking that's ok . .and that will lead to a whole variety of problems for her.  I'm not too worried about breaking her spirit . .she seems to have a fairly unlimited supply.  And besides, it's not like I'm mean about it or anything . .I just make it stop .. now.

The ones that definitely see the behaviour and just ignore it are bad parents and most likely the kind of people who do these same things themselves.  There's no arguing or reasoning with them . .I'd leave it for the course management.  Most people aren't like that, though . .just like people who don't repair ball marks or drive on the fringe . .it's the noticable few who stand out.

I've never seen somebody .. kid or otherwise . . poking holes in a practice green and I play at some pretty low-end places.  I see, for example, shirtless dudes putting with beers in thier hands and people who look like they just got off work at the carnival . .but everybody is pretty decent with how they treat the course and practice areas.   I would say, hopefully, that the OP just ran into a pretty isolated incident - not indicative of "muni" behavior.

[Spyder]

Originally Posted by Meltdwhiskey

I'd have to agree with those that are saying this is a parenting issue and not a muni/private issue.  I never had kids, so the last parenting of a child experience I had was when I was a child - in the 70s/80s.  I know times have changed and I know some would say that since I am not a parent - that I have no room to talk.  But I see plenty of the described behavior off of the golf course.

I've had occasions where my friends' kid(s) were abusing some of my stuff and the parent(s) just let it go totally. Or if they do say something, they say it very lightly and the child continues to do it as if nothing was said at all.  Maybe I don't have room to talk, but I don't at all see how it is cool to let kids tear stuff up weather it is a golf green or my new skis.  I don't understand why they don't say something.  Anyone have feedback on this? As a non-parent it fascinates me.

I can't help you there. My parents were on me every single day when I was a kid. I'm 28 now and had discipline instilled in me from day 1. When I did things right and behaved, they were extremely laid back and the funnest parents I could know. If I screwed something up or did something stupid though, I was corrected accordingly.

My father's father was a military man and a Korean War vet who took no bs whatsoever. My dad was way lighter on me than his dad was on him though. Some things did carry on, such as:  make your bed the minute your feet touch the floor, do your own laundry, be proactive in doing the dishes/mowing the lawn/cleaning the house, teaching me that it is absolutely necessary to dust, cook and vacuum as a man, etc.

Hell, if I did the dishes (always by hand, they had a perfectly good dishwasher that was used maybe twice in 10 years) and I missed a spec of food on a plate or fork - everything I washed came back out and was redone again. It may seem harsh to soft people, but other people from "that era" understand what I'm saying and what it does to you. In exchange, I got anything and everything I wanted... spoiled even - but I worked for it and met and exceeded expectations.

I'm not tooting my own horn though, I'm just telling it like it is for myself and people who had similar upbringings.

I intend to instill discipline into my child the same way, without ever raising a hand to him because it's not necessary. Some parents are just not involved and make excuses of not having time.

However, even if a kid didn't receive that type of discipline w/ reward upbringing, you get to a certain age where it is all on you and not your parents. It's a lack of self-pride in the end....

If this was too long and you didn't read my Dr. Phil rant:

There are some lazy SOBs out there and you get to a point where you should know better. Common sense isn't necessarily something that can be taught and it sure as hell cannot be bought. You either 'got it or 'ya don't!

[ckermes]

I can't help you there. My parents were on me every single day when I was a kid. I'm 28 now and had discipline instilled in me from day 1. When I did things right and behaved, they were extremely laid back and the funnest parents I could know. If I screwed something up or did something stupid though, I was corrected accordingly. My father's father was a military man and a Korean War vet who took no bs whatsoever. My dad was way lighter on me than his dad was on him though. Some things did carry on, such as:  make your bed the minute your feet touch the floor, do your own laundry, be proactive in doing the dishes/mowing the lawn/cleaning the house, teaching me that it is absolutely necessary to dust, cook and vacuum as a man, etc. Hell, if I did the dishes (always by hand, they had a perfectly good dishwasher that was used maybe twice in 10 years) and I missed a spec of food on a plate or fork - everything I washed came back out and was redone again. It may seem harsh to soft people, but other people from "that era" understand what I'm saying and what it does to you. In exchange, I got anything and everything I wanted... spoiled even - but I worked for it and met and exceeded expectations. I'm not tooting my own horn though, I'm just telling it like it is for myself and people who had similar upbringings. I intend to instill discipline into my child the same way, without ever raising a hand to him because it's not necessary. Some parents are just not involved and make excuses of not having time. However, even if a kid didn't receive that type of discipline w/ reward upbringing, you get to a certain age where it is all on you and not your parents. It's a lack of self-pride in the end.... If this was too long and you didn't read my Dr. Phil rant: There are some lazy SOBs out there and you get to a point where you should know better. Common sense isn't necessarily something that can be taught and it sure as hell cannot be bought. You either 'got it or 'ya don't! :beer:

I am definitely not old enough to be telling someone else how to parent. However what Spyder is talking about parents taking the time to actually teach a child how to behave is something that is rare these. I have a few friends that have parents very similar to Spyders and when we were young they always thought it wasn't fair yet today in their twenties they are very glad their parents raised them the way they did. To an extent it is difficult to be mad at the kids that have never been shown "correct" way to act.

[newtogolf]

If I see someone, a kid destroying property that doesn't belong to them, I say something to the parent, not the kid.  OP did nothing wrong but told a parent to do his job and watch his kid, I don't see anything wrong with that.  If a course employee saw what the kid was doing and handed the father an invoice for the damage his kid did he'd be glad the OP stopped him when he did.

Parents go out to golf courses, shopping centers, etc and let their kids run wild expecting everyone else to watch them while they go about their business.  Common sense says If you have a destructive 4 year old, don't hand the kid a club to smash into expensive greens if you're not going to supervise him.

[gsu_paintballer]

I've ONLY ever played muni/public courses (with the exception of playing in three scrambles). I've never had a problem with the exception of three guys damn near killing me with hooked drives and thinking it was funny.

[mvarley84]

I went to my local municipal GC yesterday...spent more time on the green repairing ball marks than I did lining up my putt. It was a quiet night, so no one behind us. One of the greens keepers pulled up and thanked me.

Also seen a couple teenagers in t shirts running around on the green (in cleats) after sinking a putt...

I think its just par for the course at small muni's these days.

[Jodastra]

Wow it sounds as though I am fortunate. In central Ohio I have to look for stuff you guys have mentioned...But I usually do not have to look to far. Shirtless golfing, 5-somes, golfing infants, drunken hosebags that litter the course with their beer cans and Ho-Ho wrappers,  and profanity are the mainstay at my second choice course. But I am fortunate that if I only pay $10 more(for 18) I can get on a course that is better maintained and has a course ranger. I live 2 miles from my Muni, and I play there a lot, or used to. There was that day, at that Muni, when we played(2) around the group ahead of us to keep our tempo grooving because they were being PGA. Well that pissed them off. We finished our 18 just after they finished their nine. I got about a mile down the road when my car started to sputter and wanted to die. The parking lot security cams caught them pissing, and pouring long neck miller high life's in my gas tank. They pried the locking gas filler door open. Luckily my tank fuel tank was on about half and I just topped it off...no problem. I just do not golf there much any more...

[Lihu]

[quote name="bjwestner" url="/t/67685/lack-of-etiquette#post_854973"]I'm fortunate that I belong to a club because if I had to play all my rounds at muni's in the area, I would probably lose it.  Since I belong to a club, that is where I play most of the time.  On occasion though I like to play a different course and will end up playing one of the local muni's.  During the week since one of these muni's is very close to my house, I prefer to go there to practice putting or my short game. So I'm there one night last week on the practice putting green and there is a guy who has his child on the practice green with him.  The child must have been no older than 4 years old and was damaging the practice putting green by taking a club from his Dad's bag and trying to use it himself.  This was creating all kinds of indentations in the green.  The child was loud and was walking all over the place, even walking in my line as I was practicing my putting.  I don't want to be a douche, but at that point I had it.  I was watching this child destroy the green and all this time the child's father was doing his own thing just a few feet away.  Finally I said something to the father and asked him to please stop his child from destroying the practice green.  The guy had an attitude problem and said that it was just a kid and to chill out.  Chill out?  Your kid is destroying the course, stop him or I will get someone from the course to stop him for you.  The guy yelled something at me in some asian language (not sure which) and then picked up his kid and left.  I'm all for having kids play golf and stuff but nobody should destroy the course.  I understand that this is a muni course and that there are a lot of things that fly there that would not fly at a proper club/course (that should not be the case but unfortunately it is).  It seems like almost every time I go to one of these muni's, I always end up witnessing some kind of behavior that is just not acceptable let alone sometimes forbidden in the rules of golf.  I don't want to come off as a rules/etiquette douche but I cannot stand it when I see people disrespecting or damaging the course.  The answer that I always seem to get when I say something is that it's a public course?!?!?!  If anything since it's funded partially with EVERYONE'S tax dollars, that should be even more incentive not to destroy! I do not know if this is the way that things have always been or if this is something new that is perhaps a result of trying to grow the game of golf and as a result those that are new to the game do not fully understand how to behave on a golf course.  I live in the DC area and the muni's that I've seen this behavior at are in Montgomery County, Maryland.  From what I hear the muni's in Montgomery County are actually very well maintained compared to muni's elsewhere.  It's a shame because they'd be even better if people acted the right way instead of treating the course like their backyard.  Anyone else notice similar issues?  If so did you say something?  [/quote] I'm from North Potomac, and I would have definitely said a few more terse words than you did. People like that make me feel ashamed. This dad needs to learn basic civility. There are specific places designated to bring a small child, and a golf course is, in general, not one of them. Unless, of course the child is seriously learning golf.

[bjwestner]

It's nice to see that Golf Channel and the PGA are airing commercials on pace of play!

Of many issues regarding lack of etiquette, the issue that I see this happen the most with is pace of play and the lack of knowledge of the rules regarding pace of play and also the lack of consideration of others regarding pace of play.  We all know that there are issues with pace of play virtually everywhere.  It happens in golf and likely always will.  The real issue though is how to deal with each situation of slow play.  I play fast and I understand that others do not play as fast.  That's fine.  They do not need to rush because of me.  Usually when this happens and I am behind a group of slow players, there is room ahead of them (hence the slow play/lack of pace).  Just let me/my group play through then.  We'll do it quick and considerately and it's the best case for everyone involved usually.  This is where the issues occur......I don't know if it's lack of knowledge but it seems to be more of a rudeness thing because I've asked to play through a few times and get pushback.  Per the rules of golf if there is room ahead of the slow play group then it's actually not the decision of the slow play group at all, the group gets to play through.  Since it's not nice to just do this without getting the committment of the slow play group, that is where the problems arise usually.

Tied in to the slow play are the situations when I am behind the slow play group and for no reason, the slow play group refuses to hit even though there is absolutely zero chance that they would even come close to the group in front of them.  This usually occurs on par 5's and has a snowball effect of backing up play even for the groups behind us.

My point to this post is that as someone that loves the game and wants to respect the rules and etiquette of golf, I want to know if I am doing something that is not in line or against the rules.  It is my understanding from reading the history/evolution of golf that this is what those golfers before us did and intended.  It's a shame that there are some out there that simply do not care......

[dsc123]

What course, BJ?

You did the right thing, but I play those courses a lot and have never seen anything like that.  But it reminds me of this guy that I used to run into at Olney Golf Park.  His 4 year old daughter would go with him and it seemed like we had the same schedule because we were always there at the same time.  I'd hit off the grass tees as she was distracting by yelling and running around, or I'd be hitting pitch shots and she would run up to the green and start picking up balls.  Her father completely ignored her.

But it comes down to bad parenting, not public/private, in my opinion.

[turtleback]

Originally Posted by Meltdwhiskey

I'd have to agree with those that are saying this is a parenting issue and not a muni/private issue.  I never had kids, so the last parenting of a child experience I had was when I was a child - in the 70s/80s.  I know times have changed and I know some would say that since I am not a parent - that I have no room to talk.  But I see plenty of the described behavior off of the golf course.

I've had occasions where my friends' kid(s) were abusing some of my stuff and the parent(s) just let it go totally. Or if they do say something, they say it very lightly and the child continues to do it as if nothing was said at all.  Maybe I don't have room to talk, but I don't at all see how it is cool to let kids tear stuff up weather it is a golf green or my new skis.  I don't understand why they don't say something.  Anyone have feedback on this? As a non-parent it fascinates me.

As a parent of 2 girls in their early 20s (both on their own and self supporting with jobs in the fields they got their degrees in) and as a JHS teacher I've seen both sides of this.  Most of the credit for how my girls turned out goes to my wife, who was a stay-at-home mom for the early years.  My younger girl was very, shall we say, rambunctious, and if we hadn't kept our thumb on her she probably would have been diagnosed as ADHD and carried that label.  Now I am not saying that there aren't genuine ADHD kids, but a lot of it, in my experience, is parent induced.  I see it all the time in parent conferences.

Prime example is the parent who comes to the parent conference and brings one or more younger siblings with them.  As we are having the meeting the little one gets into something.  Mom says "Stop that."  Kid doesn't stop.  Mom doesn't do anything about it.  Then Mom tells me that she just doesn't know what to do with little Johnny (my student), how he has always been a behavior problem.  As if somehow I have a magic answer for her.  And I actually DO have the answer.  But heaven forbid I try to point out that the problem is exactly what she is doing with the next one - not enforcing what she says - and she will be in the principal's office complaining about me disrespecting her.  You see it all the time in public, as well.  Kid is doing something - parent says to stop - kid doesn't stop - parent ignores it and goes back to their own concerns.  Whenever we were out with our kids our first priority was monitoring what they were doing and making sure they were behaving appropriately to the circumstance.

And it is very hard for someone who was not parented well to themselves become a good parent because they have not had any example.  I was very lucky in that both my wife and I grew up in households where the parents were parents - actively involved and not interested in being our friend.  Now I am not saying that parents should be controlling and oppressive, but (hopefully rare) occasions are going to rise where the parent has to make the kid unhappy - even to the point where the kid hates them.  It is temporary and n the end they appreciate it.  My younger daughter used to talk to us about how glad she is that we didn't cult her much slack as a kid because it had made her so much more responsible and mature than her friends.  But the flip  side is that you have to let them go by gradually putting more and more life decisions into their hands.  My wife calls it structured independence.  As they get to make the decisions so they get to deal with the consequences, good or bad, flowing from the decisions.

[Parker0065]

I had a similar incident to the OP's a couple years ago while on vacation at the Outer Banks. For years we've been going down and staying across the street from the Currituck Club. A very nice Fazio resort course. On this particular day my son and I were practice putting on their massive two tiered putting green when a father with two young sons, around ages 5 and 7 came to also putt.

My son and I moved up to the upper level to continue our putting match we had started leaving them with the lower section to themselves. I wasn't paying attention to the father and son below but after a while the father started packing up to leave so I told my son lets putt back down to the lower level. When we got down there it was like a pack of wild goats or mules had rampaged the green. Apparently the two young boys thought it would be cool to take the handle of their putters and ram them into the green leaving large gouges worse than any ball mark. I couldn't believe what I was seeing, they had severely damaged over a third of this massive lower green with these deep gouges. What was even more amazing was how in the world could this parent allow this to happen. He would have had to be completely blind not to see his kids devastating damage to the green.

I instantly went into the clubhouse to inform them what had happened at the practice green and that the culprits we walking out at that moment. The guy thanked me and said they would handle it. At that point the damage had been done but most important was to let them know that we had nothing to do with it and who the responsible party was. To this day I still can't believe that parent looked the other way and let his idiotic children destroy property!

[Euan]

I play at my local public course, mostly because it's close and cheap.I see many rude and ignorant (players?) who have no time to abide by even some basic etiquette.

What annoys me most are people who drop a couple of balls on the green to practice after they have putted out, and i'm waiting for them to clear the green. Also people who hit up behind you while you wait for slower players up ahead, (and i have seen this on private courses as well). But that's all part of playing on public courses.

If i want a good game i will play at private courses and pay the price.

[bjwestner]

Originally Posted by dsc123

What course, BJ?

You did the right thing, but I play those courses a lot and have never seen anything like that.  But it reminds me of this guy that I used to run into at Olney Golf Park.  His 4 year old daughter would go with him and it seemed like we had the same schedule because we were always there at the same time.  I'd hit off the grass tees as she was distracting by yelling and running around, or I'd be hitting pitch shots and she would run up to the green and start picking up balls.  Her father completely ignored her.

But it comes down to bad parenting, not public/private, in my opinion.

Needwood.  I tried to play there last Friday afternoon.....it ended up being a "death march".  We tee'd off at 3pm and did not finish the 9th hole until 5:58pm, 3 hours for 9  holes.  There was no way in hell we were going to play the back 9.  I complained to the starter and asked where the marshall was?  The response is that there was no marshall on a Friday afternoon in the summertime.

It was my fault though.  I was itching to play an easier course instead of my country club and I should have seen that coming.....

[dsc123]

Yeah, needwood is very slow in the afternoon.  I was surprised saturday when I teed off shortly after 3pm and finished by 7:30.  I think the course was more clear than usual because of a tournament earlier in the day.