Is it better to play fast or play by the rules?

[mvarley84]

Originally Posted by iacas

The thread has the context of being very specific about the rules.

Like Drew and others, I couldn't care less what you do on the golf course so long as you're not holding up play. I don't care if you never finish a hole, chip and putt a few extra times, kick your ball every other hole, etc. It's not "golf" per the rules (i.e. one of the topics of the thread), but if you do whatever it is you do quickly, I couldn't care less.

You can "set your own rules" all you want, but it's not truly "golf" and this thread has "the rules" in the title, and they don't mean "whatever rules you make up," it means The Rules of Golf (which, again, I couldn't care less if you play by or not when it doesn't affect me).

What are you even arguing about anymore? Ok fine, don't call it golf...don't really care. The title is "Is it better to play fast or play by the rules". My original response was I would RATHER a group played quickly instead of nit picking over rules. It is an opinion poll...and just like *******s, everyone is entitled to one. Yes it is fully possible to follow the rules and play quickly...but that isn't what was asked in the thread title now was it.

[flintcreek6412]

Easily 90% of people that show up to a golf course with clubs and balls aren't playing golf according to this thread.  Those that play by the strict rules, good for you.  I do because that's what I do.  I like to have a realistic idea of what I really score.  But to say those other 90%, and the number is probably even higher if you actually get out and play with the masses and see how they play, aren't golfing is just ridiculous.  They are golfing.  Period.  They are paying good money to play golf.  Or do you suggest they are just walking around a golf course hitting a ball around?  I'll try that argument sometime.

Starter....."Do you have your receipt for the tee time"

Me....."No, I'm not golfing.  I'm just going to walking around and enjoy nature while hitting a few balls"

Starter....."If you are teeing off, hitting the ball, trying to get on the green and putting into the cup you are golfing"

Me....."Not according to TST experts.  This isn't really golf so I don't need to pay to golf"

Those that get upset about people claiming to have indexes that they didn't obtain by the strict rules of golf...who cares.  Are you really so insecure that you need to feel legitimized as a good golfer by having an index better than someone?  That's pretty sad.  Just let the results on the course speak for themselves.  Period.

It's kind of like the old school yard bullies.  I was pretty tough as a kid and I knew it.  I didn't need to brag about it or show of.  I just went about my business quietly.  The loudmouth tough talking bullies always made me laugh because I knew they couldn't back it up against real competition.   And it's funny how they would never ever challenge me because they knew the truth.  Just like a guy with a vanity handicap....he'll brag about how low it is, but he'll never go head to head against anyone that he knows holds a legitimate HC equal to his.  Why can't you guys just sit back and laugh on the inside at this guy?  Insecurity is all that comes to my mind.  Get over it.

As long as these "non-golfers" are walking around hitting a ball at a reasonable pace leave them alone.  Without them the golf courses would close up because for the guy that plays once a month, mulligans, footwedges and drops from OB just make the game less frustrating so let him play it his way.  Isn't this damn sport supposed to be fun so people keep coming back?

[saevel25]

Originally Posted by flintcreek6412

It's kind of like the old school yard bullies.  I was pretty tough as a kid and I knew it.  I didn't need to brag about it or show of.  I just went about my business quietly.  The loudmouth tough talking bullies always made me laugh because I knew they couldn't back it up against real competition.   And it's funny how they would never ever challenge me because they knew the truth.  Just like a guy with a vanity handicap....he'll brag about how low it is, but he'll never go head to head against anyone that he knows holds a legitimate HC equal to his.  Why can't you guys just sit back and laugh on the inside at this guy?  Insecurity is all that comes to my mind.  Get over it.

Its not insecurity, its what is right. Why should people be able to claim something that isn't true. To me any one who stands there and says there handicap is this, and yet they don't follow the rules of golf is a fraud. Its a blantant lie to claim something you know isn't what it actually is. If people are honest, 90% of people should say they have no handicap that they play for fun.

Originally Posted by flintcreek6412

Those that get upset about people claiming to have indexes that they didn't obtain by the strict rules of golf...who cares.  Are you really so insecure that you need to feel legitimized as a good golfer by having an index better than someone?  That's pretty sad.  Just let the results on the course speak for themselves.  Period.

Yea they should, yet those who don't play the rules of golf can't have the results speak for themselves because there index is the results of what they do on the course, and its not legit. Depending on the course you can easily shave of 4-5 strokes by not following the rules. Dropping a ball were the ball went OB, not going back to hit a 2nd shot when you lost a ball, getting a better lie by improperly dropping a ball that went into a hazard. All common situations that can easily shave off strokes. For some of us who play golf, by the rules, those 4-5 strokes mean a lot. When your fighting the course to shoot a low round, every stroke means a lot.

Were not telling them not to play. Go play, have fun. Just don't claim something that your not. Be honest with your self and about the sport your play, its not to hard to actually tell the truth you know.

[mvarley84]

Originally Posted by saevel25

Its not insecurity, its what is right. Why should people be able to claim something that isn't true. To me any one who stands there and says there handicap is this, and yet they don't follow the rules of golf is a fraud. Its a blantant lie to claim something you know isn't what it actually is. If people are honest, 90% of people should say they have no handicap that they play for fun.

Yea they should, yet those who don't play the rules of golf can't have the results speak for themselves because there index is the results of what they do on the course, and its not legit. Depending on the course you can easily shave of 4-5 strokes by not following the rules. Dropping a ball were the ball went OB, not going back to hit a 2nd shot when you lost a ball, getting a better lie by improperly dropping a ball that went into a hazard. All common situations that can easily shave off strokes. For some of us who play golf, by the rules, those 4-5 strokes mean a lot. When your fighting the course to shoot a low round, every stroke means a lot.

Were not telling them not to play. Go play, have fun. Just don't claim something that your not. Be honest with your self and about the sport your play, its not to hard to actually tell the truth you know.

Completely agree with that. Anyone who is trying to claim a handicap should be following the rules (at least for the rounds they are counting towards the HC.) Also, anyone trying to say "I shot a (insert bullshit number here)" should have played by the rules.

[Golfingdad]

Originally Posted by Fourputt

And by the way, no you didn't play basketball, and you didn't play hockey.  You played  games which vaguely resembled them, but that's as far as it goes.  I played sandlot ball games too, and they varied depending on how many kids we could get together - might be workup, or chicken base, but neither was baseball.  In any game, from golf to tiddly winks, it's only the rules which define the game.  Throw out the rules and you may be playing something, but it isn't the game that those rules describe.

But only a select few people on this forum will bother to make that distinction.  Nobody has ever bothered to try to explain to me that 3 on 3 basketball isn't really basketball until now.  (Same for all of the other sports)  However, there does not seem to be a shortage of people willing to take every opportunity to tell every person who doesn't play golf by all of the correct rules that they aren't playing golf.  It's just plain silly.  And that is my point.  There is no reason for anybody to waste their breath or time being bothered by others playing golf by their own rules or having a vanity handicap, because it just doesn't matter.

[Fourputt]

Originally Posted by mvarley84

Quote:

Originally Posted by saevel25

Its not insecurity, its what is right. Why should people be able to claim something that isn't true. To me any one who stands there and says there handicap is this, and yet they don't follow the rules of golf is a fraud. Its a blantant lie to claim something you know isn't what it actually is. If people are honest, 90% of people should say they have no handicap that they play for fun.

Yea they should, yet those who don't play the rules of golf can't have the results speak for themselves because there index is the results of what they do on the course, and its not legit. Depending on the course you can easily shave of 4-5 strokes by not following the rules. Dropping a ball were the ball went OB, not going back to hit a 2nd shot when you lost a ball, getting a better lie by improperly dropping a ball that went into a hazard. All common situations that can easily shave off strokes. For some of us who play golf, by the rules, those 4-5 strokes mean a lot. When your fighting the course to shoot a low round, every stroke means a lot.

Were not telling them not to play. Go play, have fun. Just don't claim something that your not. Be honest with your self and about the sport your play, its not to hard to actually tell the truth you know.

Completely agree with that. Anyone who is trying to claim a handicap should be following the rules (at least for the rounds they are counting towards the HC.) Also, anyone trying to say "I shot a (insert bullshit number here)" should have played by the rules.

Finally we found the same page.   I couldn't agree more with both of you.  I'm not a dick about how anyone plays or scores as long as they understand good etiquette, and they don't start bragging about a score which wasn't played under the rules.   I've played with more guys than I can count who played golf to the beat of their own drummer, and it doesn't bother me in the least.

I had one guy who was silly enough to offer a wager on the back 9, and I told him straight out that I had 2 rules for wagering.  One is that I don't play for money with strangers (I had a good friend in the army who'd been a pool hustler since he was 14 - After watching him at work, nobody is going to slip one past me), and two is that I don't play for money unless the Rules of Golf are in force, and I told him he missed on both counts.

Originally Posted by Golfingdad

Quote:

Originally Posted by Fourputt

And by the way, no you didn't play basketball, and you didn't play hockey.  You played  games which vaguely resembled them, but that's as far as it goes.  I played sandlot ball games too, and they varied depending on how many kids we could get together - might be workup, or chicken base, but neither was baseball.  In any game, from golf to tiddly winks, it's only the rules which define the game.  Throw out the rules and you may be playing something, but it isn't the game that those rules describe.

But only a select few people on this forum will bother to make that distinction.  Nobody has ever bothered to try to explain to me that 3 on 3 basketball isn't really basketball until now.  (Same for all of the other sports)  However, there does not seem to be a shortage of people willing to take every opportunity to tell every person who doesn't play golf by all of the correct rules that they aren't playing golf.  It's just plain silly.  And that is my point.  There is no reason for anybody to waste their breath or time being bothered by others playing golf by their own rules or having a vanity handicap, because it just doesn't matter.

Although it's colloquially called baseball or golf, that's only for the sake of convenience.  Even you have to admit that regardless of what you called it, you weren't playing "basketball".  Maybe you were playing "hoops", or just call it what it was, 1 on 1 or 2 on 2, or whatever.

When I was a kid and we got a ball game together, we'd say let's go play baseball, but we never kidded ourselves in to thinking that what we were doing remotely resembled what the Twins were doing.  We played variations depending on how many guys we had.  Sometimes we only had 4 or 5 guys, so we played 500 or Fly-up.  We called it baseball, but we weren't even running bases or throwing pitches.  One guy was just hitting fly balls to the others, and when one of the fielders qualified, then he got up to bat.  The only resemblance to baseball was the bat, ball and gloves.  We did what we did out of necessity.

By the same reasoning, there is Golf and there is "golf".  One is played by the rules and is the real game.  The other resembles Golf, and to the untutored eye may even appear to be Golf, but it is only "golf".  The same necessity as I mentioned above doesn't exist for Golf, because anyone and everyone could play by the rules if they chose to.

[Golfingdad]

Originally Posted by Fourputt

Although it's colloquially called baseball or golf, that's only for the sake of convenience.  Even you have to admit that regardless of what you called it, you weren't playing "basketball".  Maybe you were playing "hoops", or just call it what it was, 1 on 1 or 2 on 2, or whatever.

When I was a kid and we got a ball game together, we'd say let's go play baseball, but we never kidded ourselves in to thinking that what we were doing remotely resembled what the Twins were doing.  We played variations depending on how many guys we had.  Sometimes we only had 4 or 5 guys, so we played 500 or Fly-up.  We called it baseball, but we weren't even running bases or throwing pitches.  One guy was just hitting fly balls to the others, and when one of the fielders qualified, then he got up to bat.  The only resemblance to baseball was the bat, ball and gloves.  We did what we did out of necessity.

By the same reasoning, there is Golf and there is "golf".  One is played by the rules and is the real game.  The other resembles Golf, and to the untutored eye may even appear to be Golf, but it is only "golf".  The same necessity as I mentioned above doesn't exist for Golf, because anyone and everyone could play by the rules if they chose to.

Were there any other guys hanging around the playground ready to jump down your throats and give you guys crap if they heard you call it baseball?

[Lihu]

The league I'm in many players go by "winter rules" so they can roll the ball around or "fluff" it up in the rough. Even though I'm not a low handicapper I play my ball how it lies, whether it's buried in rough, under a tree, whatever because I need to learn these shots if I am to become a good golfer. I don't judge the other guys for doing it but it bothers me when they encourage me to do it also. There are people who don't count all their strokes either. To me, since it is league and our scores matter, this bothers me overall but not enough to say anything.

I agree, we need to learn the rules, for ourselves, to play the game properly. I don't really pay attention if others in my group follow them. Unless, they specifically ask me, and I happen to know.

[Lihu]

Why even play golf? Just go play putt-putt.  You're eliminating everything that makes golf....golf.

That's true. However, If they choose to play putt-putt on a golf course, they are allowed. As long as they don't slow down people who are trying to play golf. It might also be a way for more people to ease into the real game of golf?

[turtleback]

Originally Posted by mvarley84

Yup, golf was founded hundreds of years ago as a game for the more fortunate....a game for elitists...and has played that way for hundreds of years. Apparently anyone who "doesn't belong", still isn't welcome. People would be a lot happier on the golf course if they stopped worrying about everyone else's game, and started just enjoying theirs.

That is the first time I have heard Scottish shepherds called elitests.  LOL

Originally Posted by mvarley84

Completely agree with that. Anyone who is trying to claim a handicap should be following the rules (at least for the rounds they are counting towards the HC.) Also, anyone trying to say "I shot a (insert bullshit number here)" should have played by the rules.

What about the rule that says that if you are posting rounds for a handicap you should be posting all of our rounds?

Originally Posted by Golfingdad

Were there any other guys hanging around the playground ready to jump down your throats and give you guys crap if they heard you call it baseball?

But I bet they will jump down your throat if you dribble, stop, dribble, stop, walk a few steps with the ball, etc.  Sounds more like you are arguing form of play, not rules of play.  It is more akin to playing a fourball, or foursomes than playing under some person's idea of what the rules should be.

[BuckeyeNut]

There is no excuse for slow play.....

Using the "I'm playing by the rules" is a BS excuse.  No matter how bad your 4-some sukks.....it should never take more than 4hrs....and 0 minutes to play 18 holes of golf. If it does....maybe a par3 course is where you need to play.

[mvarley84]

Originally Posted by turtleback

What about the rule that says that if you are posting rounds for a handicap you should be posting all of our rounds?

Well, according to some on this forum, if I am not following all the rules when I play, then I am not really playing "Golf", therefore I wouldn't need to submit a score for a game I wasn't really playing.

[Ernest Jones]

Originally Posted by mvarley84

Well, according to some on this forum, if I am not following all the rules when I play, then I am not really playing "Golf", therefore I wouldn't need to submit a score for a game I wasn't really playing.

That's right, don't submit the score because the score is bullspit.

I used to play by...ahem...fun rules, instead of the real rules and also felt people on here were being overly militant when the said things like, "you're not even playing golf if you aren't using ALL the rules", but the more I play the more I agree that if you aren't playing by the rules, all the rules, then I don't want to hear about your score because it's meaningless. I'm glad you're playing, I'm glad you're having fun and we can play together anytime (as long as you keep pace) but don't tell me about your score because it is meaningless, there is no metric by which to measure your score because it's made up, and I can't compare it to mine or anyone else's because it was by a different set of rules.

Everytime some fluffs a lie, nudges it out from behind a tree or takes a breakfast ball the integrety of that score completely vanishes. I think people (not saying you in particular, just in general) don't realize the magnitude by which these actions can alter score. We're not talking about a stroke here and a stroke there, anyone one of those actions could mean a difference of three or even four strokes. Without that footwedge from behind the tree you might have bounced one off the tree and deeper into the woods and then double duffed that one back out of the woods and into the second cut of rough where you then fat it another 30 yards before finally getting a clean shot from the fairway. So it's not just a free stroke from behind the tree it's all the consecutive string of trouble that altered shot may have led to.

So have fun, play by what ever rules allow you to keep up and enjoy yourself but don't talk to me about your score if it wasn't obtained by the rules.

[flintcreek6412]

Completely agree with that. Anyone who is trying to claim a handicap should be following the rules (at least for the rounds they are counting towards the HC.) Also, anyone trying to say "I shot a (insert bullshit number here)" should have played by the rules.

Agreed, in a perfect world. Golf rules are black and white but we live in world tinted gray. The fact is that people lie, exaggerate and embellish all the time. Be it about income, intelligence, athletic ability or anything else they place value on. It's human nature. Some are malicious about it while others don't even realize they are doing it. I cut lots of golfers slack because most don't know even the basic rules of golf. Have you ever looked at it completely? It like the US tax code. Several times a year even pros get in trouble over rules they don't know. 99% of golfers believe a ball lost in tall grass is a drop like a lateral hazard. I'm not going to call them cheaters for their lack of understanding. I'll try to educate them about the proper rule and leave it up to them if they want to follow it. Those crying foul and claiming they aren't playing golf do you also jump you daughters butt and tell her she not really playing house when she gets out the tea set? Or tell your son he's not really playing cowboys and indians? Or better yet....why don't I call you a tax cheat because your tax return isn't 100% legit or tell you that you aren't a law abiding citizen because you drove over the speed limit. And if I really want to piss in your corn flakes I can tell you that you aren't a Christian because you've been divorced as some interpretations state. So before some of you cast stones at the recreational golfer saying he's not really golfing, examine every aspect of your own life and see if you are in a position to scrutinize others. None of us are that perfect. But keep in mind, if we are playing for $1 you bet your ass the rules of golf are applied on that round.

[mvarley84]

Originally Posted by Ernest Jones

That's right, don't submit the score because the score is bullspit.

I used to play by...ahem...fun rules, instead of the real rules and also felt people on here were being overly militant when the said things like, "you're not even playing golf if you aren't using ALL the rules", but the more I play the more I agree that if you aren't playing by the rules, all the rules, then I don't want to hear about your score because it's meaningless. I'm glad you're playing, I'm glad you're having fun and we can play together anytime (as long as you keep pace) but don't tell me about your score because it is meaningless, there is no metric by which to measure your score because it's made up, and I can't compare it to mine or anyone else's because it was by a different set of rules.

Everytime some fluffs a lie, nudges it out from behind a tree or takes a breakfast ball the integrety of that score completely vanishes. I think people (not saying you in particular, just in general) don't realize the magnitude by which these actions can alter score. We're not talking about a stroke here and a stroke there, anyone one of those actions could mean a difference of three or even four strokes. Without that footwedge from behind the tree you might have bounced one off the tree and deeper into the woods and then double duffed that one back out of the woods and into the second cut of rough where you then fat it another 30 yards before finally getting a clean shot from the fairway. So it's not just a free stroke from behind the tree it's all the consecutive string of trouble that altered shot may have led to.

So have fun, play by what ever rules allow you to keep up and enjoy yourself but don't talk to me about your score if it wasn't obtained by the rules.

I probably play a half dozen or so rounds a year (mostly charity tourney's) where I play by USGA rules. As you can see, never submitted for a handicap. I don't need a number to measure my level of improvement, I'm not at that point of my game yet. I can feel how a round is going. Heck, if I make it to the 6th hole still using the same golf ball I know I've been driving the ball well. I've been playing since I was a youngster (played pretty much every day from 11-15), took some time off just playing rec ball, then became a little more dedicated last year (I'm 28). I've posted some good scores (I'm typically high 80's low 90's on a par 72), but have pulled out some wild rounds (both much higher and much lower). My best round ever (twice) is a 5 over 77. I was 14 the first time, playing in a local Jr tournament. The second time was this year in a charity tournament.

[Ernest Jones]

I probably play a half dozen or so rounds a year (mostly charity tourney's) where I play by USGA rules. As you can see, never submitted for a handicap. I don't need a number to measure my level of improvement, I'm not at that point of my game yet. I can feel how a round is going. Heck, if I make it to the 6th hole still using the same golf ball I know I've been driving the ball well. I've been playing since I was a youngster (played pretty much every day from 11-15), took some time off just playing rec ball, then became a little more dedicated last year (I'm 28). I've posted some good scores (I'm typically high 80's low 90's on a par 72), but have pulled out some wild rounds (both much higher and much lower). My best round ever (twice) is a 5 over 77. I was 14 the first time, playing in a local Jr tournament. The second time was this year in a charity tournament.

I want to reiterate that I'm not s**ting on anyone for their choice in how they enjoy playing. Use whatever rules allow you to have fun as long as the player understands that they forfeit any rights to claiming a particular score when they decide to use simplified and/or easier rules, I think most people are cool with that. The thing is some people who have learned to play with these "funner" rules eventually start to improve and like to talk about their scores and how they are improving, at this point it's time to start applying the rules. You can't properly gauge your progress when you don't even know what your score is.

[Fourputt]

Originally Posted by Golfingdad

Quote:

Originally Posted by Fourputt

Although it's colloquially called baseball or golf, that's only for the sake of convenience.  Even you have to admit that regardless of what you called it, you weren't playing "basketball".  Maybe you were playing "hoops", or just call it what it was, 1 on 1 or 2 on 2, or whatever.

When I was a kid and we got a ball game together, we'd say let's go play baseball, but we never kidded ourselves in to thinking that what we were doing remotely resembled what the Twins were doing.  We played variations depending on how many guys we had.  Sometimes we only had 4 or 5 guys, so we played 500 or Fly-up.  We called it baseball, but we weren't even running bases or throwing pitches.  One guy was just hitting fly balls to the others, and when one of the fielders qualified, then he got up to bat.  The only resemblance to baseball was the bat, ball and gloves.  We did what we did out of necessity.

By the same reasoning, there is Golf and there is "golf".  One is played by the rules and is the real game.  The other resembles Golf, and to the untutored eye may even appear to be Golf, but it is only "golf".  The same necessity as I mentioned above doesn't exist for Golf, because anyone and everyone could play by the rules if they chose to.

Were there any other guys hanging around the playground ready to jump down your throats and give you guys crap if they heard you call it baseball?

My point is that it's a matter of choice.  People choose to not play golf by the rules.  We didn't choose to not play baseball by the rules.  We didn't have a choice because we didn't have the number players or the officiating support structure necessary for that to happen.  All you have to do is read the book and walk out on the course alone and you can still play by the rules.  This is why I give a hard time to people who try and justify themselves by making excuses for not playing by the rules.  THEY have made that choice, and they did have a choice.  In golf you don't need the infrastructure to be able to play strictly by the rules.

I don't care that a player makes that choice, but he can at least be honest about it and just say, "I don't play by the rules because I don't want to."  I don't buy the "Oh it's too slow" or "Oh, it's no fun" crap.  I know a ton of players who play fast, have a jolly good time, and still play by the rules (and no they aren't all low handicappers either).

And I don't call out players just for making that choice.  I repeat for umteenth time that I don't care that anyone doesn't play by the Rules of Golf.  I only refute the excuses they come up with for it, and I don't take their resultant scores seriously.  If they are happy with what they are doing, it's fine with me.  I also don't have any problem with the player who has a poor understanding of the rules but still tries his best to play by what he has learned.  He's at least trying, and that type of player is usually very receptive to being assisted in furthering his rules knowledge.

[Nutter]

I think it's a lot more respectable to keep up with the proper pace of play.  If you're making 8's and 9's consistently you just look ridiculous if you're playing every shot by the book.  When I first started out I'd play with better people and I'd pick or be quick to drop somewhere if I felt I was starting to hold up play.  People don't care if you suck if you're fun to be around and aren't treating the course like a driving range.