What is your opinion on the "Breakfast Ball"?

[sacm3bill]

Originally Posted by iacas

Quote:

Originally Posted by sacm3bill

I'd be surprised if anyone else shared the opinion that a practice swing is as beneficial as actually making contact with a ball, but I won't argue that point.

It's not, but that's kind of the point - that's why the rules prohibit practicing on the golf course by hitting a ball, but allow practice swings at flowers. :) That's why I said "swing at a flower or something."

Gotcha. And for the record, I think that's a good rule, with a good rationale, and therefore I think the "practice" ball on the first tee concept, whether legal or not by the letter of the rules, is probably not in the spirit of the rules.

Originally Posted by iacas

Quote:

Originally Posted by sacm3bill

No argument from me on any of those points either, but of course they were not the points under discussion in the side topic that turtle, dsc, me, Rick, etc were having.

Yeah, and on that, I checked out awhile ago as you know (IMO it's a pointless discussion - I've never hit a "practice ball" on the course and don't see any distinction between "competitive" rounds and other rounds of golf if you're playing for a score).

For me, the point was in determining what the actual legality of the "practice ball on the first tee" was. I've been accused of the opposite many times in this thread, but I am and always have been a stickler for the rules. So this topic was of particular interest to me because I like to be as informed as possible about the rules and how they are interpreted, and I enjoy discussions about that.

[Golfingdad]

Originally Posted by Fourputt

You know, you can keep splitting hairs until the cows come home to justify breaking the rules to yourself, but I don't buy it.  When it's all said and done, a mulligan is a mulligan is a mulligan.  The rules prohibit mulligans, therefore they prohibit anything resembling a "breakfast ball".  Send an email to the USGA asking this question and the most likely response would be "LOL".   With that i'm quite done with this discussion.

You can now go on with your rationalizing.

Originally Posted by David in FL

I'll give you credit for one thing. I've never seen anyone work this hard trying to justify a mulligan....

Originally Posted by sacm3bill

Gotcha. And for the record, I think that's a good rule, with a good rationale, and therefore I think the "practice" ball on the first tee concept, whether legal or not by the letter of the rules, is probably not in the spirit of the rules.

For me, the point was in determining what the actual legality of the "practice ball on the first tee" was. I've been accused of the opposite many times in this thread, but I am and always have been a stickler for the rules. So this topic was of particular interest to me because I like to be as informed as possible about the rules and how they are interpreted, and I enjoy discussions about that.

I realize that this thread is kind of winding down and I haven't really been part of the discussion, so apologies if I'm speaking out of line here, but these comments above struck a nerve with me.

Rick, several times previously, you have made this exact same "argument" in these type of threads.  But here's the problem:  It's not an argument.  It doesn't counter anything that those people you are arguing with are saying.

sacm summarizes it quite well in this last post, so I don't have to spell it out, but basically, anybody who was trying to justify or rationalize breaking the rules, would have to be, in fact, someone who is or wants to be breaking the rules.  If you've paid ANY attention at all to their ('their' refers to sacm, turtle, and dsc, in this case; it also refers to myself, mefree, and probably a few others in previous threads) posts in this thread, and several others, I think that they have made it abundantly clear that they are not out to do that at all.

And I find it more than just a little bit disrespectful that you continually infer the wrong position for your opponents rather than listen to their actual arguments.  That is all.

Carry on.

[Kletus]

Originally Posted by Kletus

All joking aside... this is a standard afternoon group that consists of 15-20 golfers at a private club.  We have reserved tee times and there will be no one behind us.  For whatever reason they tend to prefer to play fivesomes vs threesomes.   I would prefer 5 threesomes.... they end up teaming up 3 fivesomes.  The groups start teeing off a few minutes after 1 pm and we are almost always back in the clubhouse, bets settled and heading to the parking lot by 5:30.  Takes about 4.5 hours to get 3 to 4 groups off of the same tee box (everyone hitting 2 off the first tee), get back into the clubhouse... settle bets.. grab a drink.. and head to the parking lot.   Maybe I'm wrong...  but that doesn't seem like all that slow of play to me.

The point that I was trying to make is that most courses don't put enough of a buffer between groups.   If you allow groups to follow right behind each other then a slowdown in the first group creates a traffic jam that just gets worse and worse if any of the groups that had to wait end up having issues on their next shot. The ripples move back all the way through the course and play slows down dramatically.  The course may get more golfers on the course.. but the pace of play suffers.

Originally Posted by Fourputt

Most courses aren't private clubs with limited play.  On my home course 3 groups starting to tee off at 1 PM would just be the start of the afternoon rush, even on most weekdays.  And they would have other groups ahead of them with whom they would be expected to keep pace.  Comparing conditions at a private course to what most of us face at public facilities just doesn't work.  When you know that another group will be teeing off 9 minutes behind you, you save any extra time you can for actual playing concerns, you don't waste it on mulligans.  At least you do if you have any respect at all for the other players on the course.

Fourputt,

I understand what you are saying.. but you are missing the point of my original post.   Instead of looking at each of my posts with the intent of disagreeing... try actually reading them with the intent of agreeing with me.   I think you will find that the context will change some.

My original post was referring to a marshall who was adamant about NO MULLIGANS.  I made the point that 2 off the first tee for EVERYONE would actually speed up play because it has the unintended consequence of adding the small buffer between groups that most courses fail to implement.  I am fully aware that the fivesome's we play at our course wouldn't be welcome elsewhere.. even though they play surprisingly fast.  Don't get hung up on the fivesome... or even the 2 off the first tee... the original point was about the buffer between groups.

Most courses with 9 minute windows between groups don't actually enforce the 9 minute window.   The starter just states "your up after that group" and the next group plays as soon as the group ahead moves away from their second shot.  If you actually enforced the 9 minute window... my group (even with 5) would be long gone before it was time for your group behind me to play.  If you weren't standing behind us at the tee box watching us tee off.. you would never have any clue that we did anything different than you.  If courses would actually enforce the buffer then golf would flow much more smoothly.

[turtleback]

Quote:

For me, the point was in determining what the actual legality of the "practice ball on the first tee" was. I've been accused of the opposite many times in this thread, but I am and always have been a stickler for the rules. So this topic was of particular interest to me because I like to be as informed as possible about the rules and how they are interpreted, and I enjoy discussions about that.

Likewise.  I have been a pretty vociferous defender of strict application of the rules.

Very disappointing that people I generally have so much respect for are so close-minded that they cannot even interact with the arguments made and that even when the USGA says that something is legal they take a holier than thou attitude towards even the USGA position.  (and I know I haven't posted the exact statements of the USGA person, but if anyone who has participated in this discussion PMs me with a request I will PM them back the actual exchange)  Also disappointing is the nastiness in the argument, continuing to call it a mulligan when that was clearly not what was being discussed.

To sum up the actual conclusions:

1) Mulligans, i.e., hitting a second shot when the first was intended to count but went bad, are against the rules - no one has argued otherwise. Despite the nastiness in some of the accusations.

2) According to the USGA, in a private round the players, acting as the Committee, can waive the prohibition against pre-round practice and allow a pre-designated practice shot (or shots) on the course.

All of the other posturing and nastiness are meaningless.  You raised a good question initially and it turned out that your tentative conclusion was correct.

And I will reiterate that the reason I got into this wasn't so much the practice shot on the first tee, which I agree is an unlikely scenario, but the situation I detailed where by agreement with my playing partner we have played the last 3 or 4 holes of the course as a pre-round warm-up before going on to play our 18 holes.  CLEARLY that is allowable, under the reasoning given by the USGA no matter how some might still object to it.  I will also add that the only reason it IS OK is because 7-1 gives the Committee authority to waive the rule against on-course pre-round practice.  If 7-1 did NOT give the Committee that authority then it would NOT be OK to do what we did.  I'm not arguing for some antinomian position where the players can do anything they want under the guise of being their own committee.  They are still bound by the restrictions that apply to the Committee.

Finally I need to correct something that FourPutt said that is just wrong.  In one of those messages he indicated that if a player is DQed his score is invalid for posting for handicap purposes.  This is in direct contradiction of the Handicap manual which reads in section 5-1, in relevant part:

d. Disqualification

A player who is disqualified from a competition, but has an acceptable score, must record an adjusted gross score for handicap purposes. For example, a player who is disqualified from a competition for failure to sign a scorecard has an acceptable score for handicap purposes.

And with that, I am out of this discussion.

[iacas]

Originally Posted by turtleback

2) According to the USGA, in a private round the players, acting as the Committee, can waive the prohibition against pre-round practice and allow a pre-designated practice shot (or shots) on the course.

Makes sense to me.

Mildly off-topic version of thread-within-a-thread decided.

[GoalsAndPar]

I don't and the people I golf with (when I'm not being a lone wolf ) don't want to either. Going back to the very basics of goal, the goal is get the ball into the hole with the fewest amount of strokes needed. Being able to have a mulligan or a "breakfast ball" is cheating. The only time I might do it is if we all agree to NOT PLAY THE FIRST SHOT and only play the second because at least that leaves the feeling that you need to perform with that first shot, unlike being able to choose the shot that you "like" the most.

[Shorty]

Originally Posted by sacm3bill

I'd be surprised if anyone else shared the opinion that a practice swing is as beneficial as actually making contact with a ball, but I won't argue that point.

You don't need to argue the point.

Point is, that's all you've got - a practise swing. Better than nothing, in most cases.

[Fourputt]

Originally Posted by dsc123

Did the response directly respond to the definition of competition/competitor?  From fourputt's post, it looks like are still talking about competitions.  Or does the part about informal competitions mean that if you're playing alone you are your own committee and may permit a practice ball?

What they said is that it is permitted for the committee to allow practice on the course as long as such practice is equally available to all players.  They said nothing about a practice ball from the first tee, because that question was never asked and I very much doubt that they envisioned such a practice.

I agree with Erik on this 100%.  It's unnecessary, unwarranted, and no responsible committee would authorize it.  Also I'd add that since all players are under the same handicap of not being able to warm up, then prohibiting such practice is quite fair and equitable.  Each player takes his chances.  I warm up for 95% of my rounds with a dozen or so dry swings at broken tees or the like.  That certainly is a more effective "warm up " than hitting a single ball from the tee.

If your swing sucks so bad that you have no idea where the first ball is going, then you have more issues than just playing a mulligan will compensate for.

My next round it will have been 16 months since I touched a golf club.  I have no intention of playing a breakfast ball.

[Thjaco]

If you get to the course half an hour before your Tee off time and hit a small bucket of balls to warm up, finding out your swing & ball flight for the day, why would you wast time on the first Tee holding the group behind you up.

Thom Cooke  (15.1)

[Jodastra]

Never heard of "breakfast ball" before this thread. I've played 2nd shots from the same tee, and bogeyed.When I play with others our rules are simple. If we are competing, playing for fun, bragging rights, etc.. One mulligan per nine, If you are up you can grant a fairway "do-over", which must be returned if you go down..on request. on the green, on your own. I carry yellow/orange/pink  balls and make them used as provisional tee shots.

[bplewis24]

If you are up you can grant a fairway "do-over", which must be returned if you go down..on request.

What does this mean? I don't understand.

[clutchshot]

I play depending on how people around me are playing, if I'm playing with a bunch of casual players, they want a mulligan, I don't care, I use mine somewhere during the round. If we are with serious players, I play by the rules. Are you playing for fun or are you playing to post handicap? If its just for fun, I do what I want.

[Fourputt]

Originally Posted by bplewis24

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jodastra

If you are up you can grant a fairway "do-over", which must be returned if you go down..on request.

What does this mean? I don't understand.

It means that he plays a game that sort of looks like golf, but fails to meet the definition.  I read it as if you are ahead, you can give your opponent a mulligan out of the goodness of your heart, but if he subsequently moves ahead in the match at some point, he is required to return the favor.  Not surprised you didn't quite get it as it's a new one on me too.  Guys like us who play by the real rules often don't learn these odd rules setups.

[bplewis24]

Originally Posted by Fourputt

It means that he plays a game that sort of looks like golf, but fails to meet the definition.  I read it as if you are ahead, you can give your opponent a mulligan out of the goodness of your heart, but if he subsequently moves ahead in the match at some point, he is required to return the favor.  Not surprised you didn't quite get it as it's a new one on me too.  Guys like us who play by the real rules often don't learn these odd rules setups.

Okay, that does explain it for me.  I read "up" as having the honors, so it didn't make sense for the guy who had honors on the tee to allow a do-over for somebody who hadn't hit yet.  I get it now.  Kind of baffles me that somebody would play a "competitive" or "bragging rights" round that way.  But whatever floats your boat, I guess.  If they are having fun that way fine.  However, I have a sneaking suspicion that some of those guys talk about their golf "scores" around the water cooler at the office to their co-workers, and speak about how they shot a 84, neglecting to mention the 1 mulligan per 9 and the one fairway do-over.

A golf score is a standard of measure against (as well as it's relationship to par) that is only valid when played by the rules of golf.  If you're taking mulligans and the like, the score is invalid.

[ToblaT]

Quote:

Originally Posted by Fourputt

It means that he plays a game that sort of looks like golf, but fails to meet the definition.  I read it as if you are ahead, you can give your opponent a mulligan out of the goodness of your heart, but if he subsequently moves ahead in the match at some point, he is required to return the favor.  Not surprised you didn't quite get it as it's a new one on me too.  Guys like us who play by the real rules often don't learn these odd rules setups.

It actually fits the definition fine.

Quote:

A game played on a large open-air course, in which a small hard ball is struck with a club into a series of small holes in the ground,...

That's what I get when I google for a definition of golf. Just because it's not by the rules you chose to follow doesn't make it another sport, it just makes it golf by a slightly different set of rules. What you are saying would mean, for example, that untill 1952 (USGA started to jointly issue rules with the R&A;) people in the US didn't play golf, but a "game that sort of looks like golf".

As for a breakfast ball, I don't like the idea that people hit two balls and pick the best one. I do however quite like the idea that everyone is allowed a "practice ball" on the first tee if the group agrees to it before hand and that the hitter mentions it to the other players before he hits it.

[MS256]

Originally Posted by bplewis24

Okay, that does explain it for me.  I read "up" as having the honors, so it didn't make sense for the guy who had honors on the tee to allow a do-over for somebody who hadn't hit yet.  I get it now.  Kind of baffles me that somebody would play a "competitive" or "bragging rights" round that way.  But whatever floats your boat, I guess.  If they are having fun that way fine.  However, I have a sneaking suspicion that some of those guys talk about their golf "scores" around the water cooler at the office to their co-workers, and speak about how they shot a 84, neglecting to mention the 1 mulligan per 9 and the one fairway do-over.

A golf score is a standard of measure against (as well as it's relationship to par) that is only valid when played by the rules of golf.  If you're taking mulligans and the like, the score is invalid.

I guess I'll never understand why somebody would want a mulligan at all. Is it really that bad to hit a bad shot or have a bad hole (or a bad round for that matter)?

I joined a threesome recently that hit "Breakfast balls" (although they didn't call them that) and a mulligan per side. They acted surprised that I didn't hit a second ball off of the first tee after hitting one that was only fair at best. I just told them it was good enough and the next one might be worse. Then on the island green 9th hole I hit the ball in the water and one of them said "well you still haven't used your mulligan for this nine." I just ignored him and went to the drop area.

I guess they've done those things for so long that they think of it as standard procedure, and yes they all talked about their "scores" at the end of the round, as if nothing was out of the ordinary, and even compared them to what I shot. SMH.

[David in FL]

It actually fits the definition fine. That's what I get when I google for a definition of golf. Just because it's not by the rules you chose to follow doesn't make it another sport, it just makes it golf by a slightly different set of rules. What you are saying would mean, for example, that untill 1952 (USGA started to jointly issue rules with the R&A;) people in the US didn't play golf, but a "game that sort of looks like golf".

And of course, Google is the standard by which we define the many different aspects of the sport. :-\ If you're interested however, here's how the USGA defines "golf": 1-1. General The Game of Golf consists of playing a ball with a club from the teeing ground into the hole by a stroke or successive stroke in accordance with the Rules. Please note the "in accordance with the rules" thang......

[bplewis24]

Originally Posted by MS256

I guess they've done those things for so long that they think of it as standard procedure, and yes they all talked about their "scores" at the end of the round, as if nothing was out of the ordinary, and even compared them to what I shot. SMH.

That's the part that would possibly annoy me a bit.  I dislike it when my buddies or co-workers do that, knowing they don't play by the rules.