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What is your opinion on the "Breakfast Ball"?


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Originally Posted by saltman

"Probably the whole book of the rules of golf should be changed. If you try to figure it out, it should be common sense, yet common sense never seems to prevail. A USGA rules official said that it was much more difficult to pass the test to be a rules official than it was to pass the bar exam. There's no reason for that. The game should be simple. People should be able to understand the rules and the rules should be common sense." Jack Nicklaus

Jack was my idol in golf, but that doesn't mean that everything he says it right, or even logical.   What the rules are is logical and reasonable when you make the effort to understand the underlying principles.  Play the ball as it lies, and play the course as you find it.  All of the on course playing procedures derive directly from those two statements.

Originally Posted by saevel25

The rules are not that tough to understand.

Play the ball as it lies

Don't ground your club in a hazard

You usually have three drop options, usually 2 club lengths, the point of entry between you and the hole, and the original spot (stroke and distance).

OB is stroke and distance

Hazards are all three options

Lost ball is stroke and distance

Its not that tough to understand, there area  few weird cases with man made objects, loose impediments, but still its not tough to understand. I don't get why people complain about it. its a simple game.

Why are obstructions "weird" and what happened to abnormal ground?  Ball unplayable?  Ball at rest moved?  And a half dozen other scenarios which are quite ignored in your synopsis.  I agree that the playing procedures are pretty simple, but not quite as simple as you make them out to be.

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I vote this thread be moved to the 19th hole forum.  Isn't that where we discuss other sports?

Sure hold a dance for the world and give everyone some bacon and eggs and pancakes.  We'll call it a Breakfast Ball.

I realize that this thread is kind of winding down and I haven't really been part of the discussion, so apologies if I'm speaking out of line here, but these comments above struck a nerve with me.

Originally Posted by saltman

When you compare recreational amateur golf to other professional sports is loses all credibility. What you and I do on Saturday on a golf course is recreational golf, save for tournament play. Calling people learning the game cheaters is bush league. I am not talking about blatent single digit handicap players cheating. I am talking about weekend warriors that have never played a round of competitive tournament golf in their life. Again, playing someone who has an artificially low handicap because they are largely ignorant of the rules only helps you. I can't remember the last time I lost money on the golf course. When it comes to playing for money, I politely help my opponents understand the rules as situations arise. As one would expect it generally turns their 90 into 100. I don't run around calling them cheats, but rather beginners.

People can "cheat" or not follow the rules all they like, they just shouldn't submit their scores for handicap purposes.  No one cares what the average hacker does on the course just like no one cared what my bowling scores were if I wasn't bowling during a league match.

Golfers that know enough to maintain an official handicap have an obligation to learn the rules as well.  If you have no intention of ever playing in a tournament or for money, then there's no reason to maintain an official handicap.

This only is an issue in the United States, in other countries rounds only count towards your handicap if they are during a tournament, where you must play by the rules.

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Originally Posted by saevel25

The rules are not that tough to understand.

Play the ball as it lies

Don't ground your club in a hazard

You usually have three drop options, usually 2 club lengths, the point of entry between you and the hole, and the original spot (stroke and distance).

OB is stroke and distance

Hazards are all three options

Lost ball is stroke and distance

Its not that tough to understand, there area  few weird cases with man made objects, loose impediments, but still its not tough to understand. I don't get why people complain about it. its a simple game.

Definitely not quite that simple.  I'd encourage you to go take the basic rules quiz on usga.org.  I'll be surprised if you don't miss a couple.

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Originally Posted by saltman

Definitely not quite that simple.  I'd encourage you to go take the basic rules quiz on usga.org.  I'll be surprised if you don't miss a couple.

Ha ha! I just took that test and missed 8 out of 25 on the "random" selection.

Most of the ones I missed were on match play rules and four ball rules. On some I knew there was a penalty in the scenario given but didn't pick the correct penalty.

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Originally Posted by MS256

Ha ha! I just took that test and missed 8 out of 25 on the "random" selection.

Most of the ones I missed were on match play rules and four ball rules. On some I knew there was a penalty in the scenario given but didn't pick the correct penalty.

Yeah it's tricky, why 1 stroke penalty's vs. 2 stroke penalty's vs. stroke and distance.  Those are nuances even seasoned players don't always know.  Well, we know stroke and distance, but not so for beginners.   There was one I missed about a ball being stuck in a tree which resides in ground under repair.  I assumed the ball stuck in the tree could not be identified therefore there it is not known or virtually certain that it is your ball stuck.  As a result, I assumed it was penalty under lost ball.  Turns out its ground under repair and free relief.  That makes about as much sense to me as the ability to repair ball marks but not spike marks.

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Originally Posted by saltman

Quote:

Originally Posted by MS256

Ha ha! I just took that test and missed 8 out of 25 on the "random" selection.

Most of the ones I missed were on match play rules and four ball rules. On some I knew there was a penalty in the scenario given but didn't pick the correct penalty.

Yeah it's tricky, why 1 stroke penalty's vs. 2 stroke penalty's vs. stroke and distance.  Those are nuances even seasoned players don't always know.  Well, we know stroke and distance, but not so for beginners.   There was one I missed about a ball being stuck in a tree which resides in ground under repair.  I assumed the ball stuck in the tree could not be identified therefore there it is not known or virtually certain that it is your ball stuck.  As a result, I assumed it was penalty under lost ball.  Turns out its ground under repair and free relief.  That makes about as much sense to me as the ability to repair ball marks but not spike marks.

You never make assumptions when dealing with the rules.  It either is or it isn't.  You can only base your answer on the facts available.  If the question says "the player's ball" (or words to that effect)  that means it is the player's ball, no further identification needed.  The way they trip you up most of the time in those tests is by asking how to resolve a scenario where one of more rules have already been breached because the player did not follow a procedure correctly.

Here is the key for me:  Playing by the rules is not that hard to understand.  The procedures for most situations are quite straightforward.  It's trying to sort out the issues after not playing by the rules that is a pain in the ass.

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Originally Posted by Fourputt

You never make assumptions when dealing with the rules.  It either is or it isn't.  You can only base your answer on the facts available.  If the question says "the player's ball" (or words to that effect)  that means it is the player's ball, no further identification needed.  The way they trip you up most of the time in those tests is by asking how to resolve a scenario where one of more rules have already been breached because the player did not follow a procedure correctly.

Here is the key for me:  Playing by the rules is not that hard to understand.  The procedures for most situations are quite straightforward.  It's trying to sort out the issues after not playing by the rules that is a pain in the ass.

Just for the record. I've never had any of the scenarios in the questions I missed ever come up in a round that I was playing. Like the penalty for a spectator throwing a ball back in play that was OB...Not many spectators during my rounds.

I like the one where a player kicks his ball causing it to move, then steps on it, then picks it up and cleans it, then moves it two club lengths and plays it. (What an idiot...A clumsy idiot). His "penalty" should be to wear a moron sign on his back. (Just joking).

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Originally Posted by MS256

Quote:

Originally Posted by Fourputt

You never make assumptions when dealing with the rules.  It either is or it isn't.  You can only base your answer on the facts available.  If the question says "the player's ball" (or words to that effect)  that means it is the player's ball, no further identification needed.  The way they trip you up most of the time in those tests is by asking how to resolve a scenario where one of more rules have already been breached because the player did not follow a procedure correctly.

Here is the key for me:  Playing by the rules is not that hard to understand.  The procedures for most situations are quite straightforward.  It's trying to sort out the issues after not playing by the rules that is a pain in the ass.

Just for the record. I've never had any of the scenarios in the questions I missed ever come up in a round that I was playing. Like the penalty for a spectator throwing a ball back in play that was OB...Not many spectators during my rounds.

I like the one where a player kicks his ball causing it to move, then steps on it, then picks it up and cleans it, then moves it two club lengths and plays it. (What an idiot...A clumsy idiot). His "penalty" should be to wear a moron sign on his back. (Just joking).

I usually recommend just selecting the basic questions, as those pertain to the day to day situations we run across on the golf course.  If you can score well on those, then you are at least headed in the right direction.  The advanced ones are the sort of problems that tournament committees have to deal after the fact with when a player screws up big like the "moron" above.

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Now that we've addressed the Breakfast Ball crisis, maybe we could move on to finding a solution to .... world hunger?

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Originally Posted by saltman

"Probably the whole book of the rules of golf should be changed. If you try to figure it out, it should be common sense, yet common sense never seems to prevail. A USGA rules official said that it was much more difficult to pass the test to be a rules official than it was to pass the bar exam. There's no reason for that. The game should be simple. People should be able to understand the rules and the rules should be common sense." Jack Nicklaus

Citation?

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Originally Posted by WUTiger

Now that we've addressed the Breakfast Ball crisis, maybe we could move on to finding a solution to .... world hunger?

Sure hold a dance for the world and give everyone some bacon and eggs and pancakes.  We'll call it a Breakfast Ball.

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"Probably the whole book of the rules of golf should be changed. If you try to figure it out, it should be common sense, yet common sense never seems to prevail. A USGA rules official said that it was much more difficult to pass the test to be a rules official than it was to pass the bar exam. There's no reason for that. The game should be simple. People should be able to understand the rules and the rules should be common sense." Jack Nicklaus

Sounds like something that might be said by someone who is a rules official, but not an attorney..... ;-)

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This thread is really only 3 or 4 pages long, those pages just repeat themselves every couple of weeks.

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Originally Posted by dsc123

I'd like to see some more opinions on whether this is playing "golf" or some other game that resembles golf.

That phrase just pushes my buttons so bad....it takes all I have to keep from jumping back in when that gets thrown out.

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Originally Posted by dsc123

I'd like to see some more opinions on whether this is playing "golf" or some other game that resembles golf.

Obviously if you're using golf clubs, playing on a golf course and generally following the rules, it's in a global sense, "golf".  I'd see no issue with someone saying they played a round of "golf" even if they fluffed their lie, took gimme's, free drops and mulligans.

If that person starts quoting/bragging about scores, handicap, etc to other golfers and knowingly doesn't follow the rules then they should also disclose that they only play for fun and don't follow the rules.

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Originally Posted by Lash

Quote:

Originally Posted by dsc123

I'd like to see some more opinions on whether this is playing "golf" or some other game that resembles golf.

That phrase just pushes my buttons so bad....it takes all I have to keep from jumping back in when that gets thrown out.

It's simple.  If they aren't playing by the Rules of Golf, but what they are playing looks like golf, then they are playing a variant of golf.  Just as a scramble is a variant of golf, since it's not a recognized format under the rules.  I don't see why that's such a problem for some people.

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