Gulbis - Bad Flag Etiquette

[iacas]

Please also note: do not give reputation (good or bad) for posts in this thread. Debate as you want, but reputation isn't intended to reward or punish people for agreeing or disagreeing.

I would allow good or bad reputation for non-political reasons (i.e. someone makes a good, well-reasoned argument = good, someone swears up a storm = bad), but because the true reasoning will likely be muddied by the content, I'm just asking that nobody do reputations in this thread alone.

Also, again, please keep the discussion to the flag, Natalie's sitting on it, and so on. General political discussions are fine here, but take them to the Grill Room.

[Undr Par]

ok let me ask a few questions then

1. in what way is she disrespecting the Flag? by setting on it?, by it touching the ground? etc....and

2. what's the difference in what she did then what a Soccer player does when (he's all sweaty and stinks) but wraps himself in the Flag and runs around the field?

It's not like she's spitting on the flag, burning the flag etc.....she's simply setting on it, I highly doubt her motives were to piss people off on a message board, I would think she did it out of a nice gesture (as if to say, an American won a tour event in France).......

imho it's no harm in what she did......I don't see her out there speaking badly about the US and all that or burning the flag and debating current events......I think this is making a mountain out of a mole hill personally.

[dwsell]

It is obvious that her sitting on the flag bothers people. You can't tell people what should and what should not upset them, nobody should be told how to feel. It is also clear that there are people, like myself, that are not bothered by it, which is also fine. It does not bother me, but seeing how many people are bothered by this it will make me more conscious in flag etiquette.

Please do not interpret my lack of outrage on the flag situation as a lack of respect to our country and those who have made sacrifices. Her sitting on the flag just doesn't ruffle MY feathers.

Since many are bothered by this picture it is clear she should make an apology.

[Roody]

You seem to be. The flag is to be treated in a certain way, and you're suggesting it's not important to care for those rules.

I think my actions towards fellow Americans, treating our veterans with respect by providing them with good health care, helping the ones in need, etc are more important than making sure that I don't drop the flag on the ground. That's just me.

Is bad flag etiquette wrong? I suppose it is. But I look at things in relative terms. Again, it's just me, but I don't rank this high on my list of things to get mad about. And I think that's a lot of how I am able to I live my life with a low level of stress, because I don't sweat the petty things (or pet the sweaty things, or something) :) Again, I think it'd be one thing if Natalie deliberately threw the flag on the ground and stomped up and down on it. That's intent to disrespect. That's a whole lot different. I view it as an honest mistake, and a very small mistake at that.

Your father probably disagrees, and if he doesn't, the vast majority of the guys he served with disagree with you.

Actually, I'm pretty sure he doesn't, though I will be sure to bring this topic up with him the next time I visit just to see what his thoughts are. My father is a lot like me, he sees things like this for face value.

[Big Lex]

Like I might have said already here, the issue is etiquette. Meaning, what you _should_ do, out of respect, civility, etc.

You have the _right_ to free speech, but out of considerations of etiquette, you don't call the Queen "bitch," or even "lady" or "hey you."

You have the right to dress however you please, but you don't walk into a five star restaurant, or even a grocery store, in a bath robe.

There are probably better examples.

What Gulbis did with that photo was not a serious moral transgression. She probably was expressing her patriotism, her pride in her nationality and the flag.

But she was either ignorant of or disregarded a few very simple, at one time almost universally known customs and courtesies concerning the flag.

They aren't that hard to follow: You don't let the flag touch the ground. You don't hang it upside down. You don't do anything rude or disgusting to it. By letting it touch the ground, and sitting on it, she violated two of these customs.

Making a political statement by burning a flag or whatever is fine, but she was not intending to do this, she was intending to convey the opposite. In this case, I think you're obligated to respect the flag.

The point is also not what I or your dad thinks of the flag, it's the fact that it stands for many things and has meaning to many people, and your treatment of it should reflect courtesy and civility to all connected with it.

Does Gulbis deserve a punishment, a sanctimonious reprimand, or anything harsh? Of course not. Should her error be brought to her attention, and the LPGA's and the photographers, and any golf fans who don't understand flag etiquette? Yes.

In golf, we worry about cheating, taking an illegal drop. LPGA players pay great respect to their past women champions.

It's not too much to ask that we make a point about the use of the flag in this photo.

[Undr Par]

I think my actions towards fellow Americans, treating our veterans with respect by providing them with good health care, helping the ones in need, etc are more important than making sure that I don't drop the flag on the ground. That's just me.

I completely agree and couldn't have stated it any better myself. She had no malice in her heart when she sat down, that is a HUGE difference imho then someone who does the flag disrespect out of hatred and anger....

[iacas]

1. in what way is she disrespecting the Flag? by setting on it?, by it touching the ground? etc....and

C'mon. Again, it's upside down, she's sitting on it, and it's touching the ground. I thought everyone at least knew the last one. My 4-year-old learned that in pre-school last year.

2. what's the difference in what she did then what a Soccer player does when (he's all sweaty and stinks) but wraps himself in the Flag and runs around the field?

Which of the three rules Natalie is violating is the soccer player violating? The times I've seen this they don't have a flag large enough to touch the ground.

I highly doubt her motives were to piss people off on a message board

Nobody doubts the intent was to show patriotism, but you don't show patriotism by disrespecting the flag.

I think my actions towards fellow Americans, treating our veterans with respect by providing them with good health care, helping the ones in need, etc are more important than making sure that I don't drop the flag on the ground.

In truth, they may be

more important. But that doesn't mean this issue is without value or importance whatsoever.

Like I might have said already here, the issue is etiquette. Meaning, what you _should_ do, out of respect, civility, etc.

Exactly. Some of you would be up in arms if someone hit into your foursome, yet this issue - improper treatment of a flag many have died defending (the symbol, what it represents, etc.) is "no big deal."

The point is also not what I or your dad thinks of the flag, it's the fact that it stands for many things and has meaning to many people, and your treatment of it should reflect courtesy and civility to all connected with it.

Indeed.

Does Gulbis deserve a punishment, a sanctimonious reprimand, or anything harsh? Of course not. Should her error be brought to her attention, and the LPGA's and the photographers, and any golf fans who don't understand flag etiquette? Yes.

Indeed again.

[Roody]

In truth, they may be more important. But that doesn't mean this issue is without value or importance whatsoever.

Agreed. I guess I'm just arguing the core of the issue, as opposed to the actual specific issue itself. We as Americans can make our nation greater if we could all learn to focus on the bigger issues (the "rocks") and not spend so much time worrying about the smaller ones (the "pebbles").

I mean, look at how the media focuses on the most ridiculous of things. Why is it I have to open the news to see 16 stories about Paris Hilton or Lindsey Lohan getting stupid drunk over and over again? The media makes it the focus because that's what gets people to come to their website or watch their news channel, and in the end that is what sells advertising. I just hope that this flag thing doesn't become another Paris-like episode, where the media's time would better be spent covering more important things. Know what I mean?

[iacas]

Agreed. I guess I'm just arguing the core of the issue, as opposed to the actual specific issue itself. We as Americans can make our nation greater if we could all learn to focus on the bigger issues (the "rocks") and not spend so much time worrying about the smaller ones (the "pebbles").

You're not figuring out the core issue. The core issue of this discussion is Natalie's picture of a flag touching the ground, upside down, and with her butt on it. That is, by definition, the core issue here.

You're wasting as much (or more) time than most people telling everyone to stop wasting their time. I live in a (relatively) free country, so I'll care about the things I want to care about, thank you very much.

I mean, look at how the media focuses on the most ridiculous of things.

Ain't their fault. If people didn't want to watch it, they wouldn't watch it.

Get back on topic, now, please. This is NOT a general political thread. If you have no more to say about the picture, move along.

[Mitch Cumstein]

That picture saddens me more than anything else. I have no doubt in my mind that Natalie did not intend to disrespect the flag or the United States, which means she's likely ignorant of the rules with respect to flag etiquette. Not only is Natalie ignorant, but the other U.S. citizens who were present at the photoshoot were ignorant too (I'm assuming they would have said something otherwise). The fact that all U.S. citizens aren't more aware of the rules of flag etiquette is what saddens me. These rules are important and U.S. citizens should know them. Just like they should exercise the right to vote and should be informed on the issues of the day and ensure that their represented leaders are representing them or are held accountable if they don't. It's part of your duty of citizenship, because the flag is the symbol of the United States. It is not just a bunch of pieces of cloth. Saying the flag is a bunch of pieces of cloth is like saying the Cross is just two sticks of wood and the Koran is just a book.

[bornfishy]

Good god, it must be a slow news day.

I'm glad I've more important things to worry about; I don't have the energy for "this is what we've become" et al. You'd be better off worrying about things that matter; schools, healthcare, crime. Not an LPGA player plonking her arse on an upside down flag, without having realised the implications - namely, much yapping on an internet forum.

I've read and considered all your points, and I agree with you all when you state that what she's done is wrong. But come on, I mean - Mitch, you say that picture "saddens you more than anything else." Really? Honestly? That's what saddens you the most? Not death, disease... Natalie's flag etiquette.

She was wrong, ok - but let's keep it in perspective. The flag, symbolically, is important - but with regards to real life issues affecting us all, there's much more to worry about, of much greater relevancy.

andy.

[iacas]

You'd be better off worrying about things that matter; schools, healthcare, crime.

If you'd read all the posts, you'd note that I pointed out that caring about THIS issue does not mean we cannot simultaneously care about OTHER issues.

But come on, I mean - Mitch, you say that picture "saddens you more than anything else." Really? Honestly?

You read that the wrong way. What he said means THIS picture gives him sadness more than any other emotion. In other words, this picture makes him more sad than it does happy, more sad than it does angry, more sad than it does make him frustrated or sleepy or worried or fearsome.

It does not mean this picture saddens him more than anything else saddens him.

[Mitch Cumstein]

Um, yeah. You kinda misread my meaning.

How come if we yap about shaft flexes and Pro V1s vs. Pro V1xs, it is a completely valid use of our time, but if we yap about some LPGA player sitting on the U.S. flag we have nothing better to do?

[Finalist]

who cares. she just won. I'd be to scrambled and happy to even notice the flag beyond seeing it's an american flag. I think you're reading too much into flag rules. Her intentions are good

[CG031]

I honestly don't care...it doesn't really bother me to be honest...I mean I'm not saying to go burn an American flag but I'm surprised if it means so much to a lot of you.

[Miller]

Im sure she wasnt purposely being disgraceful, come on now give her a break. All hot girls deserve a break.

[Mitch Cumstein]

Grand scheme of things, I could care less. As numerous people have said, I have other things to worry about. I think I was more annoyed with this woman when I flipped past her show on the Golf Channel and she was buying knock off purses in Chinatown. Further evidence of Natalie's ignorance.

[J.P.]

I think it may be the case that many people think "celebrities" are smarter, more educated, more "street smart" than "regular people" simply because they appear in the paper or on tv. We give them too much credit in this regard.

Fact is they are often neither as educated nor as smart as regular people when dealing with issues outside their specialty. This is a perfect example.

I cannot understand how her father, an ex-police officer, let her grow up not knowing this etiquette, and let this happen if he was there. He must not have been there. Couldn't have been.