Forum Profile Handicap Indices....

[Slice of Life]

Originally Posted by David in FL

You mentioned early on, a couple of months back when you first joined the forum, that you had played for 20 years, but only 2 or 3 rounds a year.  That only now, after finishing school were you finally getting into the game.  Not trying to knock you, but that's not an experienced, knowledgeable golfer (heck, I've played more rounds this year than you did in those 20).......certainly not one with any kind of competitive experience, and that comes through in your perspective here.

Now, how do you feel about losing when I give you those 15 strokes.  Does that bother you?  If not, then you're just not competitive at all.....and honestly, that's not the vibe I get.

I've averaged 2 or 3 rounds. Some years 0, some years 25. Past 4 years I haven't played much. This year I'm probably 50 rounds in.

Instead of just dismissing what I'm saying because I'm "not an experienced, knowledgable golfer", address the points I'm making.

I play competitively, against 5 people. Pat, Pat, Mike, Maxx, and Markus. 5 friends that golf about the same level as myself. If they beat me, it bother me...a lot.

If you beat me, it wouldn't bother me...because that isn't a real competition from the beginning, I know I have no shot of winning. I'll try my best, but toss your free strokes in the trash unless we're gambling. If LeBron James gives me 10 points in a 1 on 1 game playing to 11, and I somehow score a point before he rattles off 11, I don't feel like I beat LeBron James.

You wanna play against me and give me 15 strokes just to make it interesting? That's cool. We'll put some money on it because at that point, I'm trying to be better than my normal self...not trying to be better than you. And THAT is the bottom line. Competition in sports, is doing everything in your power, fighting to the last shot to be better than your competitor. With the HI system, winning is not being better than your competitor, it's being better than your normal self. Which is great, and you're competing...but it's absolutely not the same.

[Jeremie Boop]

Is it strange that I have better scores on courses with higher ratings/slope and more distance length?

[Slice of Life]

Originally Posted by Jeremie Boop

Is it strange that I have better scores on courses with higher ratings/slope and more distance length?

Maybe you play smarter there...because you have to.

[sealpuncher]

Originally Posted by Slice of Life

You wanna play against me and give me 15 strokes just to make it interesting? That's cool. We'll put some money on it because at that point, I'm trying to be better than my normal self...not trying to be better than you. And THAT is the bottom line. Competition in sports, is doing everything in your power, fighting to the last shot to be better than your competitor. With the HI system, winning is not being better than your competitor, it's being better than your normal self. Which is great, and you're competing...but it's absolutely not the same.

This is what bothers me about the competitive amateur golfing scene. In high school and college baseball we play against teams all the time that we know have no shot at beating us because they just aren't as good at us. They can end up scoring a couple runs and playing a good game for them, but in the end whoever scores the most runs wins the competition. Just because they play better than they normally do doesn't give them a right to say they won.

I like handicapping as a system for accurately rating where you are as a player and for flighting / seeding competitive situations so the playing field is fair; but at the end of the day I think the numbers on the scorecard are the only things that should come into play.

[Jeremie Boop]

Originally Posted by Slice of Life

Maybe you play smarter there...because you have to.

Actually, I was thinking that it's more along the lines of I'm in trouble less because I don't hit over the greens so often. But, since you mentioned it, I realize that I lay up a lot more often on those harder courses too instead of "going for it" all the time. Funny enough, last night my league score was bad, but I ended up not losing a ball. I lost probably 5 strokes by bad reads on putts and another 5 on crap chips. If I hadn't done that it would have been my best round of the year. Strange that.

[Meltdwhiskey]

Originally Posted by Zeph

I like competition in most games, but in golf, I'm primarily playing against myself and the course. Which is where golf differs from a lot of games and sports. You can't play against a basketball field or a tennis court, but you can against a golf course.

We can always compare net score if we want to look at who's the better player, but I play most of my rounds alone, so there is noone to compare it to. And when I do play and compare scores, I don't really care who shoots what, I'm just focused on my own game and my own flaws. I don't care all that much what other people think of me, and I don't have a need to impress them or prove myself to anyone. When I'm out on the course, I'm focused on my game, my score and how it holds up against par.

And as far as scoring goes, I don't care that much either at this point. I could improve my putting and short game a lot by practicing it, which I haven't in years, but I don't. I could gain quite a few shots by doing this and scoring better, but I just don't care. I'm focused on the full swing and getting from tee to fairway to green. Hitting good shots is what makes me happy, even if I will 3-putt on the green or chunk a wedge.

I must admit - when hitting the ball really well from tee to green, I begin to care a lot less about the score.  It is sort of its own reward.

[David in FL]

Originally Posted by Slice of Life

I've averaged 2 or 3 rounds. Some years 0, some years 25. Past 4 years I haven't played much. This year I'm probably 50 rounds in.

Instead of just dismissing what I'm saying because I'm "not an experienced, knowledgable golfer", address the points I'm making.

I play competitively, against 5 people. Pat, Pat, Mike, Maxx, and Markus. 5 friends that golf about the same level as myself. If they beat me, it bother me...a lot.

If you beat me, it wouldn't bother me...because that isn't a real competition from the beginning, I know I have no shot of winning. I'll try my best, but toss your free strokes in the trash unless we're gambling. If LeBron James gives me 10 points in a 1 on 1 game playing to 11, and I somehow score a point before he rattles off 11, I don't feel like I beat LeBron James.

You wanna play against me and give me 15 strokes just to make it interesting? That's cool. We'll put some money on it because at that point, I'm trying to be better than my normal self...not trying to be better than you. And THAT is the bottom line. Competition in sports, is doing everything in your power, fighting to the last shot to be better than your competitor. With the HI system, winning is not being better than your competitor, it's being better than your normal self. Which is great, and you're competing...but it's absolutely not the same.

The bold is where we disagree.  And it's where your inexperience shows.  It's not meant to be dismissive or mean, it just demonstrates that you don't understand what a net game competition is, because you've never played it.  I'm NEVER trying to beat my handicap.  I'm ALWAYS trying to beat my opponent.  I can beat him when I play worse than my handicap, and I can lose when I play better than my handicap, because how HE plays makes as much of a difference as how I play.  That's what head to head competition is all about.

It's great that you have good buddies to golf with......it's a bit of a shame that you all play at that same level though.  If you get the opportunity, try to play (and compete) against some much better players.  It'll push you outside of your comfort level and will improve your game much faster than playing with the same group of guys, all of whom struggle to break 100 more often than not.

Nuff said on this one....

[Slice of Life]

Originally Posted by David in FL

The bold is where we disagree.  And it's where your inexperience shows.  It's not meant to be dismissive or mean, it just demonstrates that you don't understand what a net game competition is, because you've never played it.  I'm NEVER trying to beat my handicap.  I'm ALWAYS trying to beat my opponent.  I can beat him when I play worse than my handicap, and I can lose when I play better than my handicap, because how HE plays makes as much of a difference as how I play.  That's what head to head competition is all about.

It's great that you have good buddies to golf with......it's a bit of a shame that you all play at that same level though.  If you get the opportunity, try to play (and compete) against some much better players.  It'll push you outside of your comfort level and will improve your game much faster than playing with the same group of guys, all of whom struggle to break 100 more often than not.

Nuff said on this one....

Disagree. And it's where your inexperience in actual athletic competition shows. I have played against much better players, and I've gotten my ass kicked, even when I played well. Because that's what sports competition is. They're better by a longshot, they're gonna win. Period.

You can play with your handicap system, and that's a competition of sorts, but it's nowhere near the same. It's not even a question. They card a 70, you card a 74, they beat you, the end.

All you're doing is trying to "create" a fair competition where there isn't one. Again, point out the tournament where Gainey gets 3 strokes on Woods and we'll rehash this issue...

[Jeremie Boop]

Originally Posted by David in FL

The bold is where we disagree.  And it's where your inexperience shows.  It's not meant to be dismissive or mean, it just demonstrates that you don't understand what a net game competition is, because you've never played it.  I'm NEVER trying to beat my handicap.  I'm ALWAYS trying to beat my opponent.  I can beat him when I play worse than my handicap, and I can lose when I play better than my handicap, because how HE plays makes as much of a difference as how I play.  That's what head to head competition is all about.

It's great that you have good buddies to golf with......it's a bit of a shame that you all play at that same level though.  If you get the opportunity, try to play (and compete) against some much better players.  It'll push you outside of your comfort level and will improve your game much faster than playing with the same group of guys, all of whom struggle to break 100 more often than not.

Nuff said on this one....

I kind of agree with playing with better players helps you improve. Last week I played against two of the lowest handicap players in league and shot my best 9 of the year in league because I was more focused. When I play against similar or worse players I don't play as well.

[geauxforbroke]

Originally Posted by Jeremie Boop

I kind of agree with playing with better players helps you improve.

I don't think there's any question as to whether it makes you better. It absolutely does. If you're seeing good shots from the people you play with, you have more positive thoughts, you focus more, and you enjoy yourself more.

[Slice of Life]

Originally Posted by Jeremie Boop

I kind of agree with playing with better players helps you improve. Last week I played against two of the lowest handicap players in league and shot my best 9 of the year in league because I was more focused. When I play against similar or worse players I don't play as well.

Originally Posted by geauxforbroke

I don't think there's any question as to whether it makes you better. It absolutely does. If you're seeing good shots from the people you play with, you have more positive thoughts, you focus more, and you enjoy yourself more.

Couldn't agree more. But you don't need extra strokes to get something out of it. Learn and get better from the experience.

[Jeremie Boop]

Originally Posted by geauxforbroke

I don't think there's any question as to whether it makes you better. It absolutely does. If you're seeing good shots from the people you play with, you have more positive thoughts, you focus more, and you enjoy yourself more.

Funny thing is, they weren't hitting very good shots. I think I actually beat them without handicap. I just focused more because I didn't want to look bad in front of better players, hah.

[Slice of Life]

Originally Posted by Jeremie Boop

Funny thing is, they weren't hitting very good shots. I think I actually beat them without handicap. I just focused more because I didn't want to look bad in front of better players, hah.

Vanity capper?

[TJBam]

Originally Posted by geauxforbroke

I don't think there's any question as to whether it makes you better. It absolutely does. If you're seeing good shots from the people you play with, you have more positive thoughts, you focus more, and you enjoy yourself more.

YEP.  Couldn't agree more.

I shot one of my better rounds from the tips (42-43) a couple weeks ago.

Black

72

7,044

73.6

130

Reason I played a little better than usual is I was playing with a +4.  We didn't waste time looking for lost balls and playing with a better player inspires confidence in my own game because I want to keep up and impress.  When he bombed a drive and stuck an iron to 8 feet, it made it look easy and I played much better.

Keep in mind that score is usually what I shoot from the middle or mid-back tees (6200 and 6600 respectively).

[geauxforbroke]

Originally Posted by Slice of Life

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jeremie Boop

Funny thing is, they weren't hitting very good shots. I think I actually beat them without handicap. I just focused more because I didn't want to look bad in front of better players, hah.

Vanity capper?

Sounds like it.

[Jeremie Boop]

Originally Posted by Slice of Life

Vanity capper?

No, they hit some good shots, but it was super hot out that day and I think I was the only one not affected by it. Plus, it's league and I didn't see them as the type to lie about their scores. They always said the same score for themselves that I had in my head for them.

[Fourputt]

Originally Posted by sacm3bill

Quote:

Originally Posted by boil3rmak3r

If your competitive nature is solely built upon bettering your handicap and playing against yourself, how do you stay focused when you've already shot your handicap and you still have two holes to play? Those are the rounds that I can lose interest unless there is a true competition on the line...

The round still might be one of the top 10 of the last 20, at some point over the course of your next 20 rounds. That means every stroke over those last 2 holes could still affect your handicap.

But I agree, it's more fun if there's a competition going. That's why I still like negotiating strokes and playing match play when playing with friends, even though I don't enjoy playing handicapped tournaments.

This is also part of the fun of handicapped casual rounds - the negotiations.  Playing with friends who know you and know how your game is trending, and may seek an adjustment before beginning.  Just part of the overall enjoyment of handicap golf.  That even happens when playing friends of more or less equal ability.  Sometimes one guy is on a hot streak and we take a stroke a side where last month we all played straight up.  We beat him, give him a lot of crap for knuckling to our demands, and next time the negotiations go a bit differently.  That is sort of the game within the game, but if you don't believe in handicapping, then you never get that extra nuance.

To Slice:  I will never say that I don't get a charge out of playing someone of similar ability straight up.  Most of my men's club's tournament were flighted stroke play, and in most we played scratch within the flight - handicaps were only used to break down the field of up to 160 players into flights.  Spread within the flight was usually only 2 or 3 strokes, except for 6th flight which was the catchall for everyone left after the first 5 were set.  6th flight always played net because the handicap spread could be 10-12 strokes.  I've had some memorable rounds and tournaments playing in such a format.  My lifetime personal best was shot during the club championship.  My first Ace too.

Although it was a casual round, one of my more memorable rounds was the one time in my life that I beat the head pro straight up.  Once only, and I've known and played with him occasionally for 20 years.  There was nothing on the line, and though it was satisfying to play that well, he was off that day, and I only shot a 76, so it's not like I was playing out of my gourd for a 10 handicap.  If he'd even been playing his average game he'd have taken me by 4 or 5 strokes easy.  I would much rather play a handicap round and be competitive and beat the other guy when we are both playing well (or conversely lose when both are playing well and I just got beat that day).  That is a much greater challenge, and a greater feeling of accomplishment to me than playing playing my best and still losing to a scratch golfer's average game.  No matter how well I played, I still lost, and regardless of your opinions on what it means to be "competitive", I don't like losing.  To lose means that you didn't win, and it makes absolutely no difference if it's a net loss or a gross loss - I didn't win.

[bluecollar01]

I don't keep an official handicap and don't even estimate one here.  Mostly, because I play golf socially.  It's an excuse for me to get outside and enjoy the scenery and hopefully some good conversation.  It's a way to decompress from the other stresses of life.  I definitely practice and try to get better but in the end it doesn't really matter.  I mean I'm not trying to feed my family based on my golfing ability (thank god!).

I do play in a league and have the handicap they've tracked for me (17) but I don't really put a lot of stock into it.

As for the competitive discussion above I tend to agree with Slice of Life.  I ran track/cross country in college and was good enough to be there but not good enough to ever compete for any titles.  Obviously, they don't give you a head-start because you're not as athletically gifted as your competitor.  If you beat someone, it's because you were better that day.

I feel the same way Slice does, that if I'd beat someone I gave a head start to I wouldn't feel good about it; and I wouldn't have enjoyed a win where I was given a head-start.  It's not that it wasn't a fair competition but that the measuring stick was skewed.

The handicap system is a good tool for creating a more even playing field but for me - head-to-head, who is better is more exciting.  The thing about golf thats different than other sports is that it is completely skill based, meaning you can't have more (intensity/heart) than the other guy to gut out a win.  At least that's my humble opinion.