Stroke and distance vs pace of play

[rustyredcab]

to the topic at hand:

I cannot imagine recording a par for a hole where I went into my pocket because I banged a few balls OB and then played from the fairway, against the rules. Or, if I didn't finish the hole because I was out of the hole in the match. When I'm in my pocket, I record the max score. I've surrendered.

Concessions are another matter. Then it is the likely score. Concede a three footer and I'll record as if I made it. Concede a 20 footer and I'm counting it as two putts. If I'm having a great round and this is a friendly match, I'll ask if I can go ahead and play out from 20 feet because I'm having a personal great round and I'd like to know my actual score.

And as for a local rule that says OB is played like a lateral hazard, I guess you play by the local rule.

[Fourputt]

Originally Posted by iacas

Quote:

Originally Posted by Fourputt

You keep saying that I'm saying things I'm not.  Let's try it once again:

If you start a hole and don't finish, i.e you pick up, that's one thing.  For the hole played by the rules but not finished, best estimate of what you would have made had you finished.

If you play a hole outside of the rules of golf that's a third thing.  For the hole played outside of the rules - par plus handicap.  Because it wasn't played under the rules, it's treated as unplayed.

Rick, I think he's saying this:

You start the hole, hit your approach OB or lose it, and can't go back to re-hit, so you've effectively "picked up" and should mark the likely score.

I think that a golfer would be wrong to write down par + handicap, especially if they don't stroke on that hole, or they're an 18 that gets a stroke but they're already sitting at +2 from the added strokes/penalties.

So the "picking up because you can't reasonably go back and re-play from the location of your last stroke" is kind of BOTH situations, and I don't agree with you (if you're the one saying it) that it should be treated more as the latter than the former.

Okay.  I was originally responding to the post about hitting 2 OB off the tee then skipping the hole.  That would equate to not playing the hole because he never got a ball in play, no matter than he was lying 4 and would be hitting 5.  Allowing him to estimate from there would make it too easy to post a "legitimate" sandbagging score.

If he already had a ball in play and then hit OB, it's a different scenario, with a different procedure, but it still matches everything I posted.  In that case it's an unfinished hole and he follows that instruction of the scoring procedure by estimating his most likely result.  There still aren't any choices to be made in what procedure is used.

[rustyredcab]

Originally Posted by Fourputt

Okay.  I was originally responding to the post about hitting 2 OB off the tee then skipping the hole.  That would equate to not playing the hole because he never got a ball in play, no matter than he was lying 4 and would be hitting 5.  Allowing him to estimate from there would make it too easy to post a "legitimate" sandbagging score.

If he already had a ball in play and then hit OB, it's a different scenario, with a different procedure, but it still matches everything I posted.  In that case it's an unfinished hole and he follows that instruction of the scoring procedure by estimating his most likely result.  There still aren't any choices to be made in what procedure is used.

Sure seems like a I played some of that hole when I've lost two balls.

I'm really asking here:

Really, hitting a ball OB is not starting the hole? I would have thought your second ball was "in play" as soon as you hit it if you did not declare it a provisional. Unless you were mistaken and your first ball was in the hole.

[iacas]

Originally Posted by Fourputt

Okay.  I was originally responding to the post about hitting 2 OB off the tee then skipping the hole.  That would equate to not playing the hole because he never got a ball in play, no matter than he was lying 4 and would be hitting 5.  Allowing him to estimate from there would make it too easy to post a "legitimate" sandbagging score.

I disagree that it'd be sandbagging. He'd likely post his ESC for that hole and be done with it. "Punishing sandbaggers" is not a good enough reason to justify applying "par + hdcp" as it punishes the honest golfer who was trying, but legitimately hit a ball or two OB and then just picked up because his partner was on in regulation or something.

Originally Posted by Fourputt

If he already had a ball in play and then hit OB, it's a different scenario, with a different procedure, but it still matches everything I posted.  In that case it's an unfinished hole and he follows that instruction of the scoring procedure by estimating his most likely result.  There still aren't any choices to be made in what procedure is used.

I disagree. I think the golfer has "played" the hole and picked up just the same as the golfer who hit a shot that landed in bounds or was found before knocking one OB/lost.

We all know the stipulated round begins when it does, and you're deemed to have begun your round when you meet those requirements, then certainly making strokes at a ball from a tee stipulates "play" of that hole has commenced.

Besides, the rules specifically state when play has begun on the next hole - when you've made strokes at the ball from the teeing ground ( quick ref ). You're deemed, in the Rules, to have begun play on that hole - it matters not where the ball ends up or if it's found.

[Fourputt]

Quote:

Originally Posted by rustyredcab

Quote:

Originally Posted by Fourputt

Okay.  I was originally responding to the post about hitting 2 OB off the tee then skipping the hole.  That would equate to not playing the hole because he never got a ball in play, no matter than he was lying 4 and would be hitting 5. Allowing him to estimate from there would make it too easy to post a "legitimate" sandbagging score.

If he already had a ball in play and then hit OB, it's a different scenario, with a different procedure, but it still matches everything I posted.  In that case it's an unfinished hole and he follows that instruction of the scoring procedure by estimating his most likely result.  There still aren't any choices to be made in what procedure is used.

Sure seems like a I played some of that hole when I've lost two balls.

I'm really asking here:

Really, hitting a ball OB is not starting the hole? I would have thought your second ball was "in play" as soon as you hit it if you did not declare it a provisional. Unless you were mistaken and your first ball was in the hole.

To be in play a ball has to come to rest on the course after a stroke.  Technically, under the definition the ball is in play as long as it is in flight, but when it comes to rest out of bounds it is no longer in play.  When the second ball is to be played from the teeing ground, it is not in play until a stroke has been made.  Since the player never managed to put a ball in play, he never started the hole, even though the strokes were mounting up.  He'd have been better advised to play yet another ball if he wanted to get credit for those played to that point.

Quote:

Ball In Play

A ball is “ in play ” as soon as the player has made a stroke on the teeing ground . It remains in play until it is holed , except when it is lost , out of bounds or lifted, or another ball has been substituted , whether or not the substitution is permitted; a ball so substituted becomes the ball in play .

Quote:

I disagree. I think the golfer has "played" the hole and picked up just the same as the golfer who hit a shot that landed in bounds or was found before knocking one OB/lost.

I guess we have to wait until the word comes down from on high then.  It would be too easy for a player to just hit one OB then mark ESC and move to the next hole if he was playing a round with nothing on the line.  I realize that may be a bit of rationalizing, as any player who is that unscrupulous would probably not balk at just entering false scores.

[rustyredcab]

Fourputt,

By the definition and logic you posted, the two balls hit OB were both in play and then came to rest out of play. No argument here. The disagreement comes in when you say that player had not begun to play the hole.

[David in FL]

Originally Posted by Fourputt

To be in play a ball has to come to rest on the course after a stroke.  Technically, under the definition the ball is in play as long as it is in flight, but when it comes to rest out of bounds it is no longer in play.  When the second ball is to be played from the teeing ground, it is not in play until a stroke has been made.  Since the player never managed to put a ball in play, he never started the hole, even though the strokes were mounting up.  He'd have been better advised to play yet another ball if he wanted to get credit for those played to that point.

I don't see that one.  He put the ball in play.....whether or not it remained in play strikes me as immaterial.  He's accrued one stroke plus one penalty stroke in the course of playing the hole already...... He's clearly begun to play the hole.

No?

[Fourputt]

I won't argue the point, because I'm mostly just going on how I interpret it, and that's just an opinion.  I could argue it either way with equal fervor.

I don't like the way it's written in any event.  I don't think it should be up to the player to make a choice of whether to finish a hole unless his ESC for the hole is an inevitable conclusion.  That part of the posting rule should only come into play in a match where a concession has been made.  Otherwise I feel it should still be par plus handicap.  Just my opinion, but not how the manual reads.

[mdl]

These threads always get contentious.  I've been insulted in various ways for saying that I don't walk back to the tee when I unexpectedly lose a ball.

In response to the OP, I've been convinced here on TST to make liberal use of provisionals.  If I'm at all unsure whether a shot went OB or if I'm playing a course I know and hit the ball somewhere I know it can be hard to find, I'll hit a provisional.  What convinced me in the end was to just think of it as a free, within the rules way to take a practice ball after hitting a crappy shot.

But when I just hit one into some spot where I 100% expect to find the ball and it just disappears for whatever reason, I don't walk back and re-tee.  I generally drop a ball in a sort of mediocre spot as if I'd hit a middling second tee shot, not pumped down the middle but not caught in jail in the trees either, and then take 2 strokes.  I just keep my HC on my phone.  This is the only rule I ever "break", and I save all my rounds' scorecards, so I consider it equivalent to re-teeing for my self-evaluation.  On a par 4 I'm most often taking a 6, often a 7, and every once in a while a 5 after playing and scoring the hole this way, so I feel that number is penalizing my handicap calculation as much as I'd expect from a score gotten through re-teeing.

[Golfingdad]

Originally Posted by mdl

But when I just hit one into some spot where I 100% expect to find the ball and it just disappears for whatever reason, I don't walk back and re-tee.  I generally drop a ball in a sort of mediocre spot as if I'd hit a middling second tee shot, not pumped down the middle but not caught in jail in the trees either, and then take 2 strokes.  I just keep my HC on my phone.  This is the only rule I ever "break", and I save all my rounds' scorecards, so I consider it equivalent to re-teeing for my self-evaluation.  On a par 4 I'm most often taking a 6, often a 7, and every once in a while a 5 after playing and scoring the hole this way, so I feel that number is penalizing my handicap calculation as much as I'd expect from a score gotten through re-teeing.

And in the real world, this is perfectly acceptable for handicap purposes.  The max you can take on a par 4, depending on the difficulty of the course obviously, is going to be 6 or 7, and you're probably usually going to get a 6 or 7 each time anyway.

Plus (and I know fourputt agrees with this one) this type of thing happens so infrequently that it's virtually inconsequential to your handicap index.  (1/10 of a point, maybe, for you)

[sacm3bill]

Ok, I've had some back-and-forth with the USGA Handicap Administration - here's the summary.

My original question was this:

from sacm3bill

Consider the scenario where I discover my ball is lost, and I have not hit a provisional. For whatever reason (course is too busy, getting too dark, etc.) I do not go back to replay the shot.

For the purposes of posting a score on this hole for handicap purposes, is this considered an unfinished hole, or an unplayed hole? Or is it either, at my discretion?

I’ve always considered this an unfinished hole (since I had started it and played it under the rules, up to the point where I stopped playing it) and therefore estimated the number of strokes it would likely take me to hole out, and used that as the score for the hole.   However, in the rule for unplayed holes, the handicap manual uses the term "Holes Not Played or Not Played Under the Principles of The Rules of Golf". If you don't play the hole out in this case, are you failing to play under the principles of the rules of golf? If so would that make this an unplayed hole, and should you therefore take par plus whatever handicap strokes you would get on the hole - discarding the fact that you've already incurred a lost ball penalty?

As a follow-up question, suppose after discovering my ball is lost I decide to estimate the number of strokes I would’ve made on the hole by dropping a ball in the general area where the ball was lost, adding two strokes, and then holing out the new ball.  While this is obviously not legal under the rules of golf, am I still playing under the “principles” of the rules of golf, in that I am attempting to most closely approximate what I would’ve scored if I had properly followed the rules?

The response was that they “ would recommend utilizing Par Plus with this scenario.  Essentially, in starting the hole with a penalty it would be difficult to determine your Most Likely Score ”.

I replied asking if the rationale for that was to prevent sandbagging, because it didn’t seem accurate to use Par Plus since that is effectively erasing any stroke and penalty I’ve already accumulated. I also asked about the wording – i.e., “recommended” is not the same as “required”, so I asked if that meant it would be acceptable to, alternatively, estimate a most likely score.

Their reply stated again that they “recommend” using Par Plus, and went on to ask “ How would one establish their most likely score from the starting point of the hole? Would the player assume that when he/she re-tees that the ball will land in the fairway? We were unable to see how to come up with a most likely score from the starting point of a hole, while starting with a penalty .”

They didn’t really seem to be addressing my points, and they were assuming a lost *tee* shot which my original question was not limited to, so I tried starting over:

from sacm3bill

I apologize, I’m probably not being clear.

You ask, “How would one establish their most likely score from the starting point of the hole?”  My thinking is, that’s what Par Plus is already doing for unplayed holes.  Par Plus is being used as the most likely score on a hole, from the tee box to holing out.

So I’m wondering why you can’t likewise use Par Plus to estimate your most likely score – from the *second* time at the tee box to holing out - in the lost ball scenario, and add that to the 2 strokes you’ve already accumulated from the first tee shot and lost ball penalty.  I’m not making any assumptions about the re-teed ball landing in the fairway, any more than Par Plus does - I’m just using the same rationale that Par Plus uses to estimate the number of strokes from tee box to holing out.

Also, it seems you’re saying that the ability to establish a most likely score is compromised by having started the hole with a penalty, and I don’t understand why that would be the case.  In any unfinished hole scenario where you’re estimating your most likely score, does it matter if you’ve already accumulated one or more penalty strokes before picking up?  Wouldn’t you simply include those penalty strokes in your estimated score?

Also, please note that my original question was not meant to limit itself to tee shots. I was referring to *any* lost balls, including those on 2nd shots, 3rd shots, etc.  If I failed to go back and replay a lost ball on a 2nd or 3rd  shot, are you recommending I also consider that an unplayed hole and use Par Plus, or should I consider it an unfinished hole and estimate the remaining strokes?  I.e., does the method that should be used depend on whether the lost ball was the tee shot or not?

Thank you for indulging me.

They responded by asking me for my phone number so we could have a conversation.  I prefer email since I’m much better at organizing my thoughts that way, and don’t care enough about this issue to spend any more of my time on it.  And I was frustrated that they couldn’t respond with a simple answer over email, and was skeptical a phone call would be any more productive. So I replied:

from sacm3bill

Thank you for the offer of a phone conversation, but if there isn’t a quick and easy answer to my questions that you can provide in an email, then I prefer not to take up any more of your time.  If the correct procedure is to take Par Plus as though the hole is unplayed, even though one is already several strokes into a hole, then I’ll just use that procedure. Thanks for your time.

So, technically their answer was to use Par Plus, at least on tee shots, even if you've already jacked a couple OB. However we still don't have an answer as to *why* that is the recommended method, whether “recommended” means the same as “required”, or whether the procedure is the same if the 2nd or 3rd shots (as opposed to the tee shot) were OB.

[GolfGuy123]

I am curious what everyone thinks about and how they handle stroke and distance penalty?

I try so hard to keep my exact score during a round, in accordance with the rules of golf but sometimes it does not seem possible.

For example...I hit a drive that does not look good but does not look terrible off the tee box (thinking its in the rough) and as I get up to the ball, I realize its 1-2 feet past the out of bounds marker. Now, by the rules of golf I should go back to the tee and hit 3 - however there is already the next group there waiting and you really dont want to hold them OR your playing group up. Do you guys usually just take it on the chin and go back and re-tee? Or...?

If I hit a questionable shot even possibly OB for my second shot - I always just immediately hit another ball from the same spot in case after a few mins of searching I can not find the original ball or find it and it is OB. This does not hold up the group too much time but not all situations are that simple...as there has been many times (especially in the fall) where I do not hit a provisional because I know my original shot was at the very worse in the rough - but then I get up there and can not find it as it could be under any one of a billion leaves.

Just curious what everyone else thinks or any other input on this rule?

[iacas]

My answer: play a provisional.

Honestly, I think more is made of this than necessary. How many times, under normal conditions (I'm not talking about when the leaves are blanketing the golf course like you can get in October here in PA), do people lose golf balls in areas where they should find them and technically need to return to the tee to re-hit?

I've played a lot of golf, and if the course is backed up, and it's just a goof-around round, I don't care if the person drops a ball, calls it lying three, and plays on. So the rare times you lose a ball that shouldn't have required a provisional, I say do that. You give up the right to boast should you shoot a good score, and you should adjust your score if you post it for handicap purposes (that was a whole other thread, though…), but otherwise, it's not a big deal.

[JonMA1]

One of the most frustrating things that can happen in a round - know you hit a ball in play but not be able to find it. Thankfully, it doesn't happen a lot.

If someone's behind me, I take a drop and give myself a penalty. Not within the rules but I at least try to be considerate to others.

I've had people come back to the tee for a second shot while I was waiting and it didn't really bother me. I'm not really sure how others feel about it.

[GolfGuy123]

My answer: play a provisional.

Honestly, I think more is made of this than necessary. How many times, under normal conditions (I'm not talking about when the leaves are blanketing the golf course like you can get in October here in PA), do people lose golf balls in areas where they should find them and technically need to return to the tee to re-hit?

I've played a lot of golf, and if the course is backed up, and it's just a goof-around round, I don't care if the person drops a ball, calls it lying three, and plays on. So the rare times you lose a ball that shouldn't have required a provisional, I say do that. You give up the right to boast should you shoot a good score, and you should adjust your score if you post it for handicap purposes (that was a whole other thread, though…), but otherwise, it's not a big deal.

In this situation, how do you adjust your score for handicap? Add another stroke? Do you have a link to the thread? thanks

[iacas]

In this situation, how do you adjust your score for handicap? Add another stroke? Do you have a link to the thread? thanks

Actually I'll probably just merge the threads, since it has almost the same exact title and topic.

http://thesandtrap.com/t/68856/stroke-and-distance-vs-pace-of-play