Unexpected Lost Ball - No Provisional - What Do You Do?

[sacm3bill]

At one point I even asked them if the rationale was to prevent sandbagging (one explanation that has been suggested by sandtrap members), and they ignored that question too. But I don't see how taking par plus on a hole where you've already jacked a ball or two out of bounds is sandbagging anyway - you really did jack a ball or two out of bounds, so it's not like reflecting that in your score is somehow dishonest.

Oops, just noticed I misspoke there and it's too late to edit the original. What I meant to say was, "I don't see how not taking par plus on a hole where you've already jacked a ball or two out of bounds is sandbagging..."

[MEfree]

In MEfree's defense I didn't take his post that way. He was just saying you're the only one he knows dong it the way that particular response from USGA said to do it.

Thanks...I wasn't trying to blame 4 putt for the rule, but he is the only guy I know who follows it that way.

I disagree with it. I don't want to use words like absurd.

It may not be absurd, but I don't see any logic to it...like you and others have said, how it the world are you going to make par+ if you already lie ESC or have hit 2 or more OB/:Lost.  If someone wants a ligit handicap instead of a vanity handicap, they either need to break this handicap rule and simply record their ESC when it is obvious that they would have scored at least that high OR they need to hole out in all cases that a match play opponent hasn't conceded them their next stroke (even if they already lie 15).  The later option doesn't do wonders for pace of play.  I would not be as reluctant to use the word absurd.

[ghalfaire]

Thanks...I wasn't trying to blame 4 putt for the rule, but he is the only guy I know who follows it that way.

Well now you know two.  I do it the way 4putt described it whenever I lose a ball or find one OB unexpectedly.  As the man said I try to minimize this condition by hitting a provisional ball whenever I have some doubt as to finding the initial ball inbounds or finding it at all.

[David in FL]

...... I would not be as reluctant to use the word absurd.

Me neither.

[Golfingdad]

I would not be as reluctant to use the word absurd.

Me neither.

A couple of pages ago, fourputt and I agreed that this situation is A) not going to come up very often, and B) not going to affect either of us much one way or the other.

For me, ESC is a double bogey, so it's either going to be a 1 or 2-stroke difference.  That averages out to maybe 0.1 points on my handicap one way or the other.  And, like I said before, the last time this happened to me was 28 rounds ago, so big deal, right?

But for somebody who is a mediocre golfer, with an 18 handicap for example, it could be a little bit more of an issue.  Depending on which rule you follow, the difference on any given hole for an 18 capper (ESC max = 7) would be either 1,2, or 3 strokes.  (Lets use 2 for simplicity)  I don't think it's out of the realm to say that an average 18 handicapper could have a situation like this come up every couple of rounds or so.  Assuming one "x" every two rounds, and assuming that those rounds equally apply to his 10 best, then the 18 index "should" actually be about a 17.

So, for some people, this situation could easily mean a difference of up to a full stroke on their handicap or even more, depending.  Definitely absurd.

[MEfree]

A couple of pages ago, fourputt and I agreed that this situation is A) not going to come up very often, and B) not going to affect either of us much one way or the other.

For me, ESC is a double bogey, so it's either going to be a 1 or 2-stroke difference.  That averages out to maybe 0.1 points on my handicap one way or the other.  And, like I said before, the last time this happened to me was 28 rounds ago, so big deal, right?

But for somebody who is a mediocre golfer, with an 18 handicap for example, it could be a little bit more of an issue.  Depending on which rule you follow, the difference on any given hole for an 18 capper (ESC max = 7) would be either 1,2, or 3 strokes.  (Lets use 2 for simplicity)  I don't think it's out of the realm to say that an average 18 handicapper could have a situation like this come up every couple of rounds or so.  Assuming one "x" every two rounds, and assuming that those rounds equally apply to his 10 best, then the 18 index "should" actually be about a 17.

So, for some people, this situation could easily mean a difference of up to a full stroke on their handicap or even more, depending.  Definitely absurd.

I think you are overstating the unexpected lost ball situation ASSUMING an 18 capper actually plays all the provisionals he should.  The problem is that most don't- yes, this is not the fault of the rules, but it could actually mean you are understating the handicap discrepancy that could occur.

There is also the possibility that a player doesn't follow the rules of golf for other reasons- i.e. if you are not involved in a match play and give yourself a 1 foot putt for 9, haven't you failed to play by the rules of golf on that hole?  Or maybe you are stuck in a bunker with a group waiting behind you and give up after 8 shots.  Based on this thread, it would then be "proper" to give yourself par+ for handicap purposes.  Wacky!

[Golfingdad]

I think you are overstating the unexpected lost ball situation ASSUMING an 18 capper actually plays all the provisionals he should.  The problem is that most don't- yes, this is not the fault of the rules, but it could actually mean you are understating the handicap discrepancy that could occur.   There is also the possibility that a player doesn't follow the rules of golf for other reasons- i.e. if you are not involved in a match play and give yourself a 1 foot putt for 9, haven't you failed to play by the rules of golf on that hole?  Or maybe you are stuck in a bunker with a group waiting behind you and give up after 8 shots.  Based on this thread, it would then be "proper" to give yourself par+ for handicap purposes.  Wacky!

Yeah, I should have been clearer. I wasn't saying an 18 handicapper would have an unexpected lost ball every couple of rounds, but rather would have an unfinished hole (or hole not played by the rules) at least every couple of rounds. I also realize its not technically on topic, but rather related to our little tangent here. :)

[MEfree]

Yeah, I should have been clearer. I wasn't saying an 18 handicapper would have an unexpected lost ball every couple of rounds, but rather would have an unfinished hole (or hole not played by the rules) at least every couple of rounds. I also realize its not technically on topic, but rather related to our little tangent here. :)

If giving yourself a 1 foot putt is considered to be an unfinished hole, then I would say this happens for the average 18 capper multiple times per round.  I also see a significant number of players pick up once they reach their ESC max well beyond 1 foot from the hole.

More on topic, up here, where guys who spray the ball should be averaging 4 to 6+ provisional balls per round, I see many players rarely utilize the option.  They end up with at least 1 or 2 "unexpected" lost balls per round and never go back to the tee.

[ghalfaire]

If giving yourself a 1 foot putt is considered to be an unfinished hole, then I would say this happens for the average 18 capper multiple times per round.

And I would comment that this isn't limited to 18 handicap players or even to double digit handicap players but I believe it is a fairly common practice of many players of ALL handicaps.  Especially in "friendly" rounds or non tournament rounds.

[MEfree]

And I would comment that this isn't limited to 18 handicap players or even to double digit handicap players but I believe it is a fairly common practice of many players of ALL handicaps.  Especially in "friendly" rounds or non tournament rounds.

I agree with you 100%- per 4 Putt, everyone who is doing this should be recording par+ on these holes which would lead to way more inaccurate handicaps IMO.

[Golfingdad]

I also see a significant number of players pick up once they reach their ESC max well beyond 1 foot from the hole.

Yeah, in line with the example Erik gave of a guy who pumps 2 or 3 balls OB and then quits, I was going more for something like this.  When you quit far enough away from the hole that you really have no idea what your score would have been.  A 1 foot gimme doesn't fall into that category.

Heck, even I have on occasion hit 2 balls OB then quit.  There is something wrong with my swing or head right then and there is really no reason to keep wasting $4 balls, IMO.  Just curse a couple of times, put the club away, mark down ESC, and head to the next hole. :)

[sacm3bill]

Quote:

Originally Posted by ghalfaire

And I would comment that this isn't limited to 18 handicap players or even to double digit handicap players but I believe it is a fairly common practice of many players of ALL handicaps.  Especially in "friendly" rounds or non tournament rounds.

I agree with you 100%- per 4 Putt, everyone who is doing this should be recording par+ on these holes which would lead to way more inaccurate handicaps IMO.

No, that's not what Fourputt was saying, or would say. We were talking about a specific scenario where you had a lost ball off the tee with no provisional, and decided to pick up instead of going back to the tee.  Fourputt considers that an unplayed hole (based on a USGA response). I'm sure Fourputt, the USGA, and everyone else considers a gimme putt an unfinished hole.

That being said, one of the many problems with that position is determining at what point a hole goes from being unplayed to unfinished. That's a question I've not seen answered by anyone, including the USGA even when directly asked that question.

[Fourputt]

Quote:

Originally Posted by ghalfaire

And I would comment that this isn't limited to 18 handicap players or even to double digit handicap players but I believe it is a fairly common practice of many players of ALL handicaps.  Especially in "friendly" rounds or non tournament rounds.

I agree with you 100%- per 4 Putt, everyone who is doing this should be recording par+ on these holes which would lead to way more inaccurate handicaps IMO.

You certainly do know how to misinterpret my position to make it fit your argument.

What I have said, over and over and over, is that I follow the word of the handicap manual.  It is quite specific about how different situations are supposed to be treated.  When taking a conceded putt, you record the most likely score, PER THE MANUAL.  None of what I've said in this thread is opinion.  It's based on what the USGA has published.

[sacm3bill]

Quote:

Originally Posted by MEfree

Quote:

Originally Posted by ghalfaire

And I would comment that this isn't limited to 18 handicap players or even to double digit handicap players but I believe it is a fairly common practice of many players of ALL handicaps.  Especially in "friendly" rounds or non tournament rounds.

I agree with you 100%- per 4 Putt, everyone who is doing this should be recording par+ on these holes which would lead to way more inaccurate handicaps IMO.

You certainly do know how to misinterpret my position to make it fit your argument.

What I have said, over and over and over, is that I follow the word of the handicap manual.  It is quite specific about how different situations are supposed to be treated.  When taking a conceded putt, you record the most likely score, PER THE MANUAL.  None of what I've said in this thread is opinion.  It's based on what the USGA has published.

I would disagree that it's based on what's published. What's published describes how to proceed for an "unplayed" hole vs "unfinished or not played under the principles of golf" hole.  The single response we have from the USGA hotline is an interpretation of what "unplayed" means.  Most if not all people, if they had no knowledge of that response, would logically assume that once you've made a stroke at the ball on the tee, you've started the hole and it would therefore logically be unfinished, not unplayed.

I think it's possible the email hotline response is contrary to what most USGA representatives would say.  Hotline responses don't carry the same weight as Decisions do. Maybe that's why they often state that the responses are not to be shared in public forums. (I never was told that when they responded to me, but I still tried to only summarize what they had said, not copy and paste it.)

[Fourputt]

Quote:

Originally Posted by sacm3bill

Quote:

Originally Posted by Fourputt

Quote:

Originally Posted by MEfree

Quote:

Originally Posted by ghalfaire

And I would comment that this isn't limited to 18 handicap players or even to double digit handicap players but I believe it is a fairly common practice of many players of ALL handicaps.  Especially in "friendly" rounds or non tournament rounds.

I agree with you 100%- per 4 Putt, everyone who is doing this should be recording par+ on these holes which would lead to way more inaccurate handicaps IMO.

You certainly do know how to misinterpret my position to make it fit your argument.

What I have said, over and over and over, is that I follow the word of the handicap manual.  It is quite specific about how different situations are supposed to be treated.  When taking a conceded putt, you record the most likely score, PER THE MANUAL.  None of what I've said in this thread is opinion.  It's based on what the USGA has published.

I would disagree that it's based on what's published. What's published describes how to proceed for an "unplayed" hole vs "unfinished or not played under the principles of golf" hole.  The single response we have from the USGA hotline is an interpretation of what "unplayed" means.  Most if not all people, if they had no knowledge of that response, would logically assume that once you've made a stroke at the ball on the tee, you've started the hole and it would therefore logically be unfinished, not unplayed.

I think it's possible the email hotline response is contrary to what most USGA representatives would say.  Hotline responses don't carry the same weight as Decisions do. Maybe that's why they often state that the responses are not to be shared in public forums. (I never was told that when they responded to me, but I still tried to only summarize what they had said, not copy and paste it.)

The problem is that the manual doesn't contemplate picking up after the tee shot.  It sees an unfinished hole as one in which a certain part of the hole (usually only a stroke or two) is conceded.  Quitting a hole while theoretically standing on the tee and already lying lying 2 or 4 isn't a consideration because that is not within the normal parameters of the Rules of Golf.  The principles of the rules state that you play your ball from tee to hole.  Not doing so is not following the principles of the rules, and thus it isn't really covered by the handicap manual, unless you use the clause:

Quote:

4-2. Holes Not Played or Not Played Under The Principles of The Rules of Golf

If a player does not play a hole or plays it other than under the principles of the Rules of Golf (except for preferred lies ), the score recorded for that hole for handicap purposes must be par plus any handicap strokes the player is entitled to receive on that hole. This hole score, when recorded, should be preceded by an "X."

You all are agreeing that this doesn't apply.  I disagree.  I'm going to be traveling in about a half hour, so I won't be a further participant before Sunday at the soonest.  I wish you all good luck trying to find a consensus.

[nick1998bunker]

If giving yourself a 1 foot putt is considered to be an unfinished hole, then I would say this happens for the average 18 capper multiple times per round.  I also see a significant number of players pick up once they reach their ESC max well beyond 1 foot from the hole. More on topic, up here, where guys who spray the ball should be averaging 4 to 6+ provisional balls per round, I see many players rarely utilize the option.  They end up with at least 1 or 2 "unexpected" lost balls per round and never go back to the tee.

It's not an unexpected if you hit a provisional. Unexpected is when you think it's in the middle of the fairway but you can't find it...

[sacm3bill]

Quote:

Originally Posted by Fourputt

Quote:

Originally Posted by sacm3bill

Quote:

Originally Posted by Fourputt

What I have said, over and over and over, is that I follow the word of the handicap manual.  It is quite specific about how different situations are supposed to be treated.  When taking a conceded putt, you record the most likely score, PER THE MANUAL.  None of what I've said in this thread is opinion.  It's based on what the USGA has published.

I would disagree that it's based on what's published. What's published describes how to proceed for an "unplayed" hole vs "unfinished or not played under the principles of golf" hole.  The single response we have from the USGA hotline is an interpretation of what "unplayed" means.  Most if not all people, if they had no knowledge of that response, would logically assume that once you've made a stroke at the ball on the tee, you've started the hole and it would therefore logically be unfinished, not unplayed.

I think it's possible the email hotline response is contrary to what most USGA representatives would say.  Hotline responses don't carry the same weight as Decisions do. Maybe that's why they often state that the responses are not to be shared in public forums. (I never was told that when they responded to me, but I still tried to only summarize what they had said, not copy and paste it.)

The problem is that the manual doesn't contemplate picking up after the tee shot.  It sees an unfinished hole as one in which a certain part of the hole (usually only a stroke or two) is conceded.  Quitting a hole while theoretically standing on the tee and already lying lying 2 or 4 isn't a consideration because that is not within the normal parameters of the Rules of Golf.  The principles of the rules state that you play your ball from tee to hole.  Not doing so is not following the principles of the rules, and thus it isn't really covered by the handicap manual, unless you use the clause:

Quote:

4-2. Holes Not Played or Not Played Under The Principles of The Rules of Golf

If a player does not play a hole or plays it other than under the principles of the Rules of Golf (except for preferred lies ), the score recorded for that hole for handicap purposes must be par plus any handicap strokes the player is entitled to receive on that hole. This hole score, when recorded, should be preceded by an "X."

You all are agreeing that this doesn't apply.  I disagree.  I'm going to be traveling in about a half hour, so I won't be a further participant before Sunday at the soonest.  I wish you all good luck trying to find a consensus.

I don't see how you can state "the manual doesn't contemplate picking up after the tee shot".  Just because it doesn't happen to use that as an example doesn't mean it wasn't contemplated.

And you can't use the argument that "not playing your ball from tee to hole is not following the principle of the rules", because you're not playing the ball from tee to hole when you concede putts, yet it's universally accepted to count that as an unfinished hole, not a hole "not played under the principles of the rules". So you shoot your own argument in the foot when you try to use the "not played under the principles of the rules" clause to any situation where you don't hole out, because that clearly doesn't apply to the conceded putt scenario.

And the other problem with saying "the manual doesn't contemplate picking up after the tee shot" is that if that were true, then the manual would need to provide some definition of what *was* contemplated. I.e., at what point have you played "enough" of the hole that you can call it unfinished and not unplayed? That's been asked several times in this thread, and in my question to the USGA hotline, and no one has given any kind of answer.

I just reread the relevant section of the manual for the dozenth time just to make sure I wasn't missing something. Here's what it says, plainly and simply:

Quote:

4-1. Unfinished Holes and Conceded Strokes

A player who starts, but does not complete a hole or is conceded a stroke must record for handicap purposes the most likely score.

I don't see how there's any way to interpret that other than as long as you have been playing under the principles of the rules prior to the point where you stop playing the hole, it's an unfinished hole.

In fact, note that it even makes a distinction between conceding a stroke and otherwise not completing a hole. (I bolded the "or" to highlight that.)  So I also can't see how you can say that the manual states that it's an unfinished hole only when "a certain part of the hole (usually only a stroke or two) is conceded". The manual clearly indicates there are other ways to have an unfinished hole.

[MEfree]

You certainly do know how to misinterpret my position to make it fit your argument.

What I have said, over and over and over, is that I follow the word of the handicap manual.  It is quite specific about how different situations are supposed to be treated.  When taking a conceded putt, you record the most likely score, PER THE MANUAL.  None of what I've said in this thread is opinion.  It's based on what the USGA has published.

I understood what you were saying about when an opponent conceded you a putt, but what I was referring to is when you concede a putt to yourself or otherwise pick up without holing out-  I thought you said the later situations were par+ and have no issue with it if they are actually most likely score.

It's not an unexpected if you hit a provisional. Unexpected is when you think it's in the middle of the fairway but you can't find it...

That is why I put UNEXPECTED in quotes.