Finchem says PGA Tour is "studying" Call-in Rules Violations

[Mulligan Jeff]

In my recollection this first came about during The Masters (year??) when a spectator called in an infraction on a player who used a towel to kneel on during his swing (under tree).

[iacas]

In my recollection this first came about during The Masters (year??) when a spectator called in an infraction on a player who used a towel to kneel on during his swing (under tree).

Craig Stadler wasn't at The Masters and the year was 1987. But okay, let's count that one: we're up to two in the last 26 years.

[Golfingdad]

Craig Stadler wasn't at The Masters and the year was 1987. But okay, let's count that one: we're up to two in the last 26 years.

Yeah, it was at Torrey Pines (apparently it was called the "Andy Williams Open" at the time. ;)

Erik, I don't think you can fault us for thinking that there are more call-ins than you say there are.  Here's a story I got from google that claims the Masters penalty was the result of a call-in ... http://espn.go.com/golf/story/_/id/9251886/in-golf-viewers-chance-call-penalties

Also, I think you're playing around with semantics when talking about Tigers penalty at the BMW.  It was an entertainment crew that noticed the possible infraction on video, and while they quite possibly used word of mouth or maybe even a walkie-talkie, instead of an actual telephone, we're still talking about people not directly involved with the competition.  If a viewer sitting in his living room off the 12th green at Pebble Beach sees an infraction and runs outside and yells at officials, thats not technically a "call-in" either, but its certainly not a tournament official.

Your point still stands, however, because even counting those, we're still talking about only 4 in 26 years.

If there are roughly 40 tournaments a year, and there are 140 players in each tournament, and half of them play the weekend, and they collectively average par, assuming I did my math right, that is 31,449,600 shots taken in that time. 8 penalty strokes is 0.000025% of that total. ;)

[iacas]

Erik, I don't think you can fault us for thinking that there are more call-ins than you say there are.  Here's a story I got from google that claims the Masters penalty was the result of a call-in ... http://espn.go.com/golf/story/_/id/9251886/in-golf-viewers-chance-call-penalties

Also, I think you're playing around with semantics when talking about Tigers penalty at the BMW.  It was an entertainment crew that noticed the possible infraction on video, and while they quite possibly used word of mouth or maybe even a walkie-talkie, instead of an actual telephone, we're still talking about people not directly involved with the competition.  If a viewer sitting in his living room off the 12th green at Pebble Beach sees an infraction and runs outside and yells at officials, thats not technically a "call-in" either, but its certainly not a tournament official.

I don't think I'm playing around.

So a spectator can't report a rules infaction? A marshal? A volunteer? A walking scorer? A caddie? What about a player on another hole?

They weren't CALL-INs. I don't think anyone is suggesting someone on-site can't inform someone of a rules infraction. If y'all are talking about that, then I disagree even more if that's possible.

Your point still stands, however, because even counting those, we're still talking about only 4 in 26 years.

If there are roughly 40 tournaments a year, and there are 140 players in each tournament, and half of them play the weekend, and they collectively average par, assuming I did my math right, that is 31,449,600 shots taken in that time. 8 penalty strokes is 0.000025% of that total. ;)

Yeah. And I'm sure there have been one or two others, but that'll just make up for the two you incorrectly added just now.

P.S. Here's yet another discussion in which I disagree with plenty of people, yet none are being punished or anything of the sort.

[rkim291968]

Ban it.   Golf is just about the only sports that allows this and things can go out of control with HDTV, slow-mo, cell phones (now in HD), ....   If someone really hates Sergio (or Tiger for that matter), he can dog him for 4 rounds and report any rule violations.   The golf rules are so complex and numerous that bet such scrutiny can result in more penalties and DQ which otherwise would have gone unnoticed.

[Golfingdad]

Yeah. And I'm sure there have been one or two others, but that'll just make up for the two you incorrectly added just now.

P.S. Here's yet another discussion in which I disagree with plenty of people, yet none are being punished or anything of the sort.

The article says:

" ...

And that is where all the controversy came last month at the Masters, where Tiger Woods took an illegal drop that was spotted by a television viewer -- who happened to be David Eger , a Champions Tour player and former rules official for the PGA Tour and USGA.

Eger alerted Augusta National rules officials, and they determined no breach had occurred -- only to change their minds after Woods said in media interviews that he had dropped in a different spot. At this point, Woods had signed his card, meaning a DQ was in order -- except the Masters ruled that it was due to their error in not discussing the matter with him. Woods was given a two-shot penalty, but spared disqualification."

I'm simply pointing out why a lot of people think there have been more call-ins than you say there have been.  If the story is wrong, then it's wrong, but that's what it says.

[newtogolf]

And again, nobody wants to answer this question because they all know the answer: list or name the actual call-in rules infractions in the last decade on the PGA Tour? Camilo Villegas is one. Name some others. This isn't the problem many of you want to think it is.

I'll turn it around, if the number of call-in rules infractions are as miniscule as you claim (which I'm not arguing) then why do we need them?

[dsc123]

I'll turn it around, if the number of call-in rules infractions are as miniscule as you claim (which I'm not arguing) then why do we need them?

newtogolf is right, this doesn't really help one side or the other, it just means everyone arguing over something that's relatively unimportant.

I think all violations caught on video should be grouped together for the purposes of this conversation.  I understand that there are some differences, but then at least we're talking about something a bit more significant.  And even if its a rules official watching on TV somewhere who catches it, you still have the issue with the TV cameras following Tiger a lot more than the next guy.

[newtogolf]

newtogolf is right, this doesn't really help one side or the other, it just means everyone arguing over something that's relatively unimportant.

I think all violations caught on video should be grouped together for the purposes of this conversation.  I understand that there are some differences, but then at least we're talking about something a bit more significant.  And even if its a rules official watching on TV somewhere who catches it, you still have the issue with the TV cameras following Tiger a lot more than the next guy.

Exactly, the discussion should involve all infractions that are enforced and originate by someone other than the golfer calling the penalty on himself or an official at the scene.

[iacas]

I'll turn it around, if the number of call-in rules infractions are as miniscule as you claim (which I'm not arguing) then why do we need them?

Because it's closer to the truth, and feasibly so.

[mvmac]

Also, I think you're playing around with semantics when talking about Tigers penalty at the BMW.  It was an entertainment crew that noticed the possible infraction on video, and while they quite possibly used word of mouth or maybe even a walkie-talkie, instead of an actual telephone, we're still talking about people not directly involved with the competition.

The committee rules it was NOT a call in.  Please stay on topic jkjk

[Mulligan Jeff]

Ban it.   Golf is just about the only sports that allows this and things can go out of control with HDTV, slow-mo, cell phones (now in HD), ....   If someone really hates Sergio (or Tiger for that matter), he can dog him for 4 rounds and report any rule violations.   The golf rules are so complex and numerous that bet such scrutiny can result in more penalties and DQ which otherwise would have gone unnoticed.

Craig Stadler, Camillo Villegas, Padraig Harrington, Tiger Woods, etc. The list will go on and on. In essence golf is not a game of perfect, neither from the player's standpoint or the rules official. It is what it is what it is...

[iacas]

Craig Stadler, Camillo Villegas, Padraig Harrington, Tiger Woods, etc. The list will go on and on. In essence golf is not a game of perfect, neither from the player's standpoint or the rules official. It is what it is what it is...

1987, yes, yes, no. So you listed two in the last decade.

I disagree with the bold.

[mvmac]

[Golfingdad]

I'll turn it around, if the number of call-in rules infractions are as miniscule as you claim (which I'm not arguing) then why do we need them?

newtogolf is right, this doesn't really help one side or the other, it just means everyone arguing over something that's relatively unimportant.

I think all violations caught on video should be grouped together for the purposes of this conversation.  I understand that there are some differences, but then at least we're talking about something a bit more significant.  And even if its a rules official watching on TV somewhere who catches it, you still have the issue with the TV cameras following Tiger a lot more than the next guy.

Totally agree with you guys on this one!

[Mulligan Jeff]

You would assume that tour players know the rules inside and out. But when you assume, well you know how the saying goes. If the tour player knows the rules and if he calls himself out for an infraction then a third party alert is null and void. Going back some years there was a tour player disqualified for wearing supports in his shoes (weight transfer aid). If he would have known the rules...

[Danish]

I read the first few pages, but not all posts in this thread. So apologies if I'm just echoing someone else's comments, but I voted in the poll this morning, and I want to explain my vote: disagree, and always have.

Professional golf is a spectator sport. But no other spectator sport that I know of lets spectators do the refereeing. You can yell at the umpire as much as you like, but it won't make any difference. Spectators are just that: people who watch a sport without taking part. Why should golf spectators be defined any differently?

We all officiate ourselves when we are on the course, and are expected to be able to cope with that. If the trappings of big cash prizes make that difficult to manage for the pros, then we may need more rules officials/referees/umpires that follow the players around - but I seriously doubt that it is necessary. Particularly if there have hardly been any phone-ins.

Also, who is to say that the people doing the phone-ins are fair? Might well be a Tiger fan out there who would call in to report Phil, but would never dream of calling in to report Tiger, even if they spot something... Just saying.

[iacas]

Professional golf is a spectator sport. But no other spectator sport that I know of lets spectators do the refereeing.

You should have read more.

You would assume that tour players know the rules inside and out. But when you assume, well you know how the saying goes. If the tour player knows the rules and if he calls himself out for an infraction then a third party alert is null and void.

Yeah, so…? If they penalize themselves nobody phoning in can penalize them. Your point is what exactly?

Tour players know the rules well enough to know when to call an official, and sometimes they make a mistake. It's incredibly rare. I'll stipulate to both of those things.