Pace Problem

[Cartboy]

Are they still running them?

I haven't seen much of those lately. I'd hoped it would be a long running, intense campaign.

Two years ago it was "Tee It Forward."  Last year it was "While We're Young."

I haven't seen any for this season yet.

Maybe, "All right, already," or "Could you be any slower?," or __________________.

[MS256]

Two years ago it was "Tee It Forward."  Last year it was "While We're Young."

I haven't seen any for this season yet.

Maybe, "All right, already," or "Could you be any slower?," or __________________.

Anytime I get in a slow group (which isn't often because I avoid them like a plague) the players in the group have absolutely no idea that they are slow.

Since it doesn't register to them that they are the target of those campaigns it goes right over their heads.

[MPtheKid]

Anytime I get in a slow group (which isn't often because I avoid them like a plague) the players in the group have absolutely no idea that they are slow.

Since it doesn't register to them that they are the target of those campaigns it goes right over their heads.

I see this as a big part of the problem. People can talk about speeding up until they are blue in the face, however, the slow players/groups usually do not think they are part of the problem.

Step 1: Admitting you have a problem!

[nevets88]

Why someone doesn't make a side by side video of how little things here and there add up (or if someone already has, make a better one because I can't think of any that got traction) by putting a timer at the bottom puzzles me.

Frame A	Frame B	Time saved
4some agrees on ready play, no honors	spends time choosing order	00:15
each player gets ready after he hits	everyone packs up after last person tees off	00:15
everyone walks to their ball, stays out of way of current ball in play	everyone stays behind person in play	00:45

etc...

[David in FL]

Same thing has happened to me.  This past season, here's what happened:

I stayed an hour late to help the transition to the afternoon crew, because the shotgun event that started at 9:00 AM had all the tee times and all the groups behind them backed up.  The other guy working with me had marshaled early, and told me one of the groups was behind and mouthy.  When I went out, that group, the third one in the shotgun, was two holes behind the group in front of them, and the group behind them was a hole behind, so there was no pressure to speed up.

I waited for them on the next tee box, so as to not bother their putting.  They blew by me like I didn't exist . . . laughing, smoking cigars, drinking beer, etc.  I went to them and told them they had been warned once, that they were on close to a 6-hour pace, and they needed to speed up.  A long-haired, mouthy dude ripped me a new one.  I went back to my other duties.

Almost as soon as I got home, the GM called, asking, "What did you do to those guys in the shotgun?  They said they're never bringing their group back again."  I told him, and then said, "How long they been in?"  He said, "Just got in."  I said, "Look at your watch."  He said, "Oh, five and a half hours, sorry."

I am the longest tenured employee at the course, marshaled or was Starter fulltime for three years, and since that day I don't sense that the GM (our third in five years) or the Pro trust me to understand the course (which is second nature and automatic to me) and be able to deal with problems customers diplomatically.

That's why I am pushing for a policy, one that says the Marshal/Player Services person gives the first two warnings and the GM or Pro deal with problem groups after that.

I'm sure I know the answer, but I'll ask anyway, did the GM suck up to the group and beg them to come back again, or did he tell them "good riddance"?

I imagine it was the latter, but you've got to wonder how many of the groups behind those knuckleheads won't be coming back as a result of their experience.  Where's the real revenue opportunity?

Two years ago it was "Tee It Forward."  Last year it was "While We're Young."

I haven't seen any for this season yet.

Maybe, "All right, already," or "Could you be any slower?," or __________________.

Yep.  It's as if they think that you can throw out a half-dozen commercials and the problem will be solved.  It's just like golf itself.....it takes a TON of repetition if any of the change is gonna stick.

[jgreen85]

Only real solution is to shorten courses and turn people away. Pace of play will never get better otherwise folks. Taylormade et al's need to sell "longer" drivers & the average golfer's ego will ensure that courses never get shorter. PGA professionals' need to "grow the game" will ensure that newbies continue to show up and take all day on each shot b/c someone told them they need a pre-shot routine like the pros. Way too many moneyed interests in the way. "They" are only paying lip service to our requests for shorter rounds with these "campaigns", but "they" know we're not going anywhere and the campaigns are more so the courses can cram more people on.

Get used to 5hrs rounds, join a private club, or play 9 holes. And to the person wondering what this year's "solution" is - it's "there's always time for nine." Why spend $5 at the range when you can spend $30 or more playing 9?

[MPtheKid]

I got tired of slow play at the local public and municipal courses so I started doing some research and shopping prices at different local private clubs. Found one that fit my price range and joined. Problem solved!

I know this isn't an option for everyone but I just wanted to throw out my experience in case anyone was thinking about doing the same. I have yet to have to sit through a painfully slow round at my club and couldn't be happier with my decision to join.

[tooc]

This is really one of the biggest problems facing golf, I think maybe incentives, like free tube of golf balls, or possibly polo shirt or something like this if under the 4 hrs. Also clocks on more tees is a good suggestions, then fellow players will put the pressure on, this could be a thing for the busy days only.

[Fourputt]

This is really one of the biggest problems facing golf, I think maybe incentives, like free tube of golf balls, or possibly polo shirt or something like this if under the 4 hrs. Also clocks on more tees is a good suggestions, then fellow players will put the pressure on, this could be a thing for the busy days only.

This sort of thing has been mentioned many times.  It just doesn't work, because for too many the incentive would have to be more than is financially feasible.  Most people aren't that inspired by a sleeve of balls, and have you priced a decent shirt in a pro shop?  I realize that the course doesn't pay that much, but they set that price because it's what is needed to balance out the time it will hang on the rack before it sells.  If a public course starts giving away shirts and the policy is successful, the pace pf play will be great but the course will go bankrupt.  I'd love it because I could open my own XXL shirt shop.

There is a also the problem that a group can only play as fast as the people in front of them.  If the course slows down due to a couple of groups who don't care about the incentive, or even if it's just due to weekend volume, then nobody gets a present.  The players who would normally be plenty fast are going to be pissed because they feel that they got cheated through no fault of their own.  I see it potentially leading to fights when a fast group gets stuck behind a couple of slow ones.

To work, a policy must designed to directly target the slow players.  They must be informed of the policy and of the consequences for failing to comply with it.  Then they have no one to blame if they are singled out for enforcement.

[Dave2512]

We'll see what 2014 brings but I don't see much changing until courses start enforcing slow play policies and identify slow groups to make them move along. The modern era entitlement virus isn't going away. Most people view golf as entertainment and they think their fees are a pass to amuse themselves. Problem is money courses want to be profitable so they don't turn people away if they disrupt the flow. I'd like to see stroke limits and assigned tee boxes for handicap ranges. If the golfers spraying balls all over are forced to move up they will be out of range quicker and the margin for error less as they get closer to the green. They usually don't slice a short iron 50 yards into the next fairway.

[tooc]

Fourput I c ur point on one slow group, I guess the only solution to that one is, if u fall a 2 hole behind the Stewart gives u a lift or an instruction to go to the next tee simple if u don't then u don't play again

[Cartboy]

Well, I've been back two days and I just got a call from my GM about a complaint on the website . . . pace problem and the marshal not trying to do anything about it.  So, that did not take long, huh?

I think I know who it was, because there were two guys that complained when they finished, about Pace and about them paying more than the guys ahead of them, who were from EZLinks.  I told them to book on EZLinks next time.

Both days were very busy, the first nice days after a brutal Winter, and yesterday was a St. Patty's day event, and you know how those go.

Yes, we did have slow play both days.  But, I have never seen people more happy to be out on a nice course in nice weather, finally.

The last four carts to come in yesterday, after dark, was a group that started before the event, and then did a replay after the event passed the first tee, so they had been there all day.  They were jacked sideways, said it is the greatest course they play anywhere, and they'll be back as soon as they can get away for another outing.

Not knowing we had a complaint yet, I told the guy I was working with, "Some people will come off the course like those guys, and the same day someone else will come off the course, with the same conditions, and be nothing but arfing and barfing."

In any event, it didn't take long for the Pace problem to come to the top of the list, and I have the word of the GM that we are going to brainstorm it, and figure out how to deal with it. I offered my staff, saying they will do whatever he wants.  Being realistic, given the history of our course and all the things we've tried, it will probably be more about how to deal with slow play, which seems inevitable some days, rather than how to speed play up.

Another funny, three years ago a guy came to our course from another local course to join our outside staff, all full of himself.  One day he made a crack to me like, "Your 6 hour rounds is why you never had any golfers."  The fact is that we were always very, very busy, which is one of the reason we had some slow play.  But, the point is, he's now the asst. pro, so it's his problem, and are things any better???!!!  And a bajillionaire bought that other course and closed it down~!!!!

Today it's snowing and blowing.  I'm worn out nalready, and happy for the day off.

[waldo]

One thing that gets overlooked some is that first group of the day sets the pace for the day until a slower group follows, it's just like traffic on the freeway once 1 car slows then the one after gets slowed down even more until you get to 6 hour pace.

I'm not sure I agree with this; in the 80's I had the first tee time at Cog Hill 2 & 4 on Sundays, the 90's first tee time at Balmoral Woods, recently I only play weekdays and only at the course I can get the first tee time ( usually George Dunne or Waters Edge ). I have never had the second group off come close to me or within 30 mins of my time. In the 70's my father taught me ready call, or as his friends use to say what are you waiting for junior. My groups never have " honors" , each player is hitting within seconds of the last hit, there is no your away it's your ready then putt, and I've never had a regular player then couldn't consistently shoot 85 or lower . We don't do give me' s or mulligans. The best part is we talk golf, crack jokes, enjoy the great shots, and it's always done in well under 3.5 hours. Why is this. We see golf as an athletic event. You wouldn't practice your jump shot in the middle of a basketball game. You don't move up and down the football field at a leisurely pace. A baseball player doesn't find his stroke by leaving the box after every pitch and analyzing his mechanics. The more an athlete stays in motion the better he performs. Somehow it seems I'm always seeing golfers that treat it as a casual activity that gets them out of the house and yet they think every swing is for the Green Jacket. Play the game like a sport an athletic event and spend the saved time talking with your guys while smoking a good cigar. I know these thought don't apply to the readers of this board. It seems most already keep a great pace and play the sport the right way.

[Cartboy]

Well, I've been back two days and I just got a call from my GM about a complaint on the website . . . pace problem and the marshal not trying to do anything about it.  So, that did not take long, huh?

I think I know who it was, because there were two guys that complained when they finished, about Pace and about them paying more than the guys ahead of them, who were from EZLinks.  I told them to book on EZLinks next time.

Both days were very busy, the first nice days after a brutal Winter, and yesterday was a St. Patty's day event, and you know how those go.

Yes, we did have slow play both days.  But, I have never seen people more happy to be out on a nice course in nice weather, finally.

The last four carts to come in yesterday, after dark, was a group that started before the event, and then did a replay after the event passed the first tee, so they had been there all day.  They were jacked sideways, said it is the greatest course they play anywhere, and they'll be back as soon as they can get away for another outing.

Not knowing we had a complaint yet, I told the guy I was working with, "Some people will come off the course like those guys, and the same day someone else will come off the course, with the same conditions, and be nothing but arfing and barfing."

In any event, it didn't take long for the Pace problem to come to the top of the list, and I have the word of the GM that we are going to brainstorm it, and figure out how to deal with it. I offered my staff, saying they will do whatever he wants.  Being realistic, given the history of our course and all the things we've tried, it will probably be more about how to deal with slow play, which seems inevitable some days, rather than how to speed play up.

Another funny, three years ago a guy came to our course from another local course to join our outside staff, all full of himself.  One day he made a crack to me like, "Your 6 hour rounds is why you never had any golfers."  The fact is that we were always very, very busy, which is one of the reason we had some slow play.  But, the point is, he's now the asst. pro, so it's his problem, and are things any better???!!!  And a bajillionaire bought that other course and closed it down~!!!!

Today it's snowing and blowing.  I'm worn out nalready, and happy for the day off.

As I recall, the group that created the backup, that upset the golfers that filed the complaint, were spoken to three times on the course, the first two by the GM/PGA Pro.  They were cordial, but never did speed up.  I was asked to go out, and they were on 15, with 16, 17, and 18 open.  I spoke to them and they said they'd pick it up.  Of course, they never did, never made any attempt at all to change the way they were playing.

Then, I heard they had numerous complaints when they finished . . . they wanted to play nine more for free because they had nine players (even though they got a discount because they had nine players . . . they wanted to bring their own beer, and were told No because of the liquor license, then they left five "outside" brews in their cooler)!!!

In my experience, the slow players that really cause the problems are not the duffers.  It's the clueless, arrogant idiots who think they own the course because they had to pay a fee to play.

Still dealing with what to do about it.  If I was the GM, it would be simple.  If a group caused five hour play, they don't get to complain about anything, and I would tell them that just like that . . . move on, you're the ones who screwed the day up for a hundred other golfers.

[RH31]

As I recall, the group that created the backup, that upset the golfers that filed the complaint, were spoken to three times on the course, the first two by the GM/PGA Pro.  They were cordial, but never did speed up.  I was asked to go out, and they were on 15, with 16, 17, and 18 open.  I spoke to them and they said they'd pick it up.  Of course, they never did, never made any attempt at all to change the way they were playing.

Then, I heard they had numerous complaints when they finished . . . they wanted to play nine more for free because they had nine players (even though they got a discount because they had nine players . . . they wanted to bring their own beer, and were told No because of the liquor license, then they left five "outside" brews in their cooler)!!!

In my experience, the slow players that really cause the problems are not the duffers.  It's the clueless, arrogant idiots who think they own the course because they had to pay a fee to play.

Still dealing with what to do about it.  If I was the GM, it would be simple.  If a group caused five hour play, they don't get to complain about anything, and I would tell them that just like that . . . move on, you're the ones who screwed the day up for a hundred other golfers.

Very often, the guys doing their (weekly,monthly, quarterly) mini outings are the culprits when it comes to clogging a golf course. They don't

give a rats ass how long it takes. They are out there to eat,drink and pal around with their buds on the golf course. They are oblivious

to all the other groups. Its their day away from the office,the wife, the kids,etc.,  Most public courses(that I've played), tolerate these

groups because they don't really care what it costs to play eat and drink.

I tried playing  public courses in my area the last few years. We were almost always told to expect it to be slow because they

were so busy. 2;15 is considered a "normal" 9 hole pace. Of course if groups were playing near that pace, nothing was said so 2;15

ends up being 2;20-2;25 for nine.

I gave up and joined a private course. Love those 3;15-3;30 hour rounds now!!!! I made up my mind the only way to play

enjoyable golf anymore is pay the extra cost of country club golf.

A few suggestions to speed up play would be:

1. move all the tees all the way up on busy days

2. keep the pins as close to the center of the green as possible

3. mark 100/150/200yards from hole on cart paths

4. educate foodcart server where and when to stop to serve

5. mark pace of play requirements at tees 1 3 6 9 12 15

In the perfect world, speed of play could be monitored electronically and slow groups could be dealt

with as soon as they got out of position. Courses just have to decide if it matters to them what their reputation

is in regards to pace of play. Many already have.

[Cartboy]

Very often, the guys doing their (weekly,monthly, quarterly) mini outings are the culprits when it comes to clogging a golf course. They don't

give a rats ass how long it takes. They are out there to eat,drink and pal around with their buds on the golf course. They are oblivious

to all the other groups. Its their day away from the office,the wife, the kids,etc.,  Most public courses(that I've played), tolerate these

groups because they don't really care what it costs to play eat and drink.

I tried playing  public courses in my area the last few years. We were almost always told to expect it to be slow because they

were so busy. 2;15 is considered a "normal" 9 hole pace. Of course if groups were playing near that pace, nothing was said so 2;15

ends up being 2;20-2;25 for nine.

I gave up and joined a private course. Love those 3;15-3;30 hour rounds now!!!! I made up my mind the only way to play

enjoyable golf anymore is pay the extra cost of country club golf.

A few suggestions to speed up play would be:

1. move all the tees all the way up on busy days

2. keep the pins as close to the center of the green as possible

3. mark 100/150/200yards from hole on cart paths

4. educate foodcart server where and when to stop to serve

5. mark pace of play requirements at tees 1 3 6 9 12 15

In the perfect world, speed of play could be monitored electronically and slow groups could be dealt

with as soon as they got out of position. Courses just have to decide if it matters to them what their reputation

is in regards to pace of play. Many already have.

Absolutely right on.  Good suggestions, and I will address those.  What I really need now is suggestions on what to do with Slow groups who do not speed up after two warnings.

Also, we have one of those clubs people can join for faster play, and hoyty-toytyness in our area, and I'm a member there, too.  They have GPS and they also have marshals, which they thought they could eliminate when they went to GPS, but found they could not.  (My uncle was marshal there and I was to replace him when he quit.  He died in 2007, and when I went in to sign on, marshal had been eliminated, and I was place in Player Services.).

That is a much easier course to play, and their pace is 4 1/2.  We are a resort area, and even that course has resort golfers.

1.  Tees.  We have wrestled with the course being too long from the forward "mens'" tee from the beginning, but did not have the budget and some holes would not accommodate building a sixth set of tees.  So, 2 years ago I suggested we have a Combo Tee (after I played the course in my mind).  We did that, its rated and sloped, and it's on the card.  The regular member group I play with moved to it last year, after resisting it a year.  The owners did not allow some I suggested to be moved forward, and those holes are still Pace killers.  The member group I play with plays different forward tees than the card, but within what is allowed to not change the slope and rating.

I will suggest closing the back two tees on busy days.  They are 7000 and 7300.  If someone wants a long course, 6700 would be the longest.

2.  Nothing anyone does or says is going to change our course superintendent.  We have 5 "quadrants" and the pin is rotated each day.  All last year I, and others, suggested a placement on the first green never be used, to no avail.  The first hole is a bad start.  Long, cart path only, and very tough green with tough pin placements.  I have suggested ways to be able to take carts on the fairway, but that has not happened. It is a long walk from the cart path to some tee shots.

3.  The cart paths  have exactly those markings, and we have 150-stakes in the fairways.  Sprinkler heads are marked and we're getting GPS next month, so I've been told.  One of the main benefits of GPS is that you can identify slow play on it, and show groups how they have made everyone behind them slow.

4.  Good idea.  Where do you suggest that be?

5.  The GM put clocks on 1 and 10, which are ignored and abused (reset by golfer).  Because of the layout of our course, pace reminders should be at 5, 9, 13, and 17, the 1, 2, 3, and 4 hour points.  My take is that clocks are ineffective because golfers don't relate to their tee time, how long they've been on the course.  An electronic warning on the GPS when we get them, that would show them behind pace as soon as they are, should replace signs more effectively.

So, let's focus on what to do with groups that have been warned twice and have not sped up.  What should that 3rd visit from the marshal be?  Please bear in mind that with some of our golfers, they find out they should not be on our course, too late, and they just physically cannot play any faster.  They are attracted to us because we are a "gotta play" facility, #1 in the State.

[David in FL]

Am I understanding, you're 100% cart path only, regardless of weather and course conditions?

[Cartboy]

No.  I don't know what I said that would suggest that.

I did say, or meant to say, that the first hole is/has always been CPO.